100th valid reason to NOT nerf Oakensoul/Empower/Lightning Staff - respect player investment.

SkaiFaith
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Oakensoul power has not been gifted to everyone for free.
One has to purchase Greymoor, High Isle, Murkmire...
One has to level up Scrying and Excavation...
One has to clear Volcanic Vents, which we should admit are not easy to solo for low level player, especially when Necrom will come out and last year zones will become desert. I am CP 1.800 and WITH Oakensoul I can clear them solo, but I happened to see higher level players without Oakensoul attempting to solo them and fail badly.
To optimize the build one has to clear several times different Group Dungeons, take Bastian to Max Level (Blackwood purchase), and be able to slot specific CPs which requires to be high level.

Also, I am CP 1.800 because I play from 2017, put in thousands of hours, and I grinded well over 5.000 Dolmens.
If you see someone like Nefas (which is a great guy) clear hard content with Oakensoul... Heck, what were you expecting from a freaking 3.600CP! Do you really want someone who repeated Black Rose Prison 'till going crazy to still fail like anyone else? I mean... If I'll ever reach CP 3.600 I want to be able to clear everything blindfolded, otherwise what's even the point?!

Oakensoul per sé, or Empower, or Lightning staff splash damage, doesn't make a random low level player the most powerful and skillful in all of Tamriel. At least a lot amount of time for leveling is required. If I invest all this time and money in the game AND I am a disabled person, AND devs rightfully claim to have done this targeting people like me, to help us... Sorry but with due respect, I think you'd better [snip] and play the game instead of filling the forum with "Nerf Oakensoul!"

By the way, I don't do Trials but watching Nefas videos these past weeks was hilarious, and if they're simply having fun I don't see what's the problem with that, since the 99 reasons mentioned from others before me prove that Oakensoul is definitely NOT OP, staying steadily behind 2 bar builds.

Hope I haven't broke any rule but I think this needed to be said - respect player investment, don't nerf these parameters, please. It's one of the best things you've added, Zos, and for which we (the targeted players) are really thankful...

[edited for baiting]

EDIT: after 250 comments my proposed solution, IF Devs think it really needs to be nerfed, is: give Oakensoul the same "nerf treatment" Pale Order received - only the Empower buff loses 3/4% of its efficacy for each member you are grouped with. No need to touch Trifocus, CPs, or anything else, and everyone's happy :smile: (I hope. Obviously I'm NOT saying I think it should be nerfed, but IF it will be, this is my suggestion.)
Edited by ZOS_Kraken on March 20, 2023 3:01PM
A: "We, as humans, should respect and take care of each other like in a Co-op, not a PvP 🌸"
B: "Many words. Words bad. Won't read. ⚔️"
  • Red_chimera_oni
    Red_chimera_oni
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    If any HA build is making more DPS then you with 2bars, then the problem is your rotation\items. HA builds, will lose in dps everytime for players with perfect rotation. If you use 2bars and you do less DPS then HA builds go trainne your rotation.

    Trainne more.
  • KS_Amt38
    KS_Amt38
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    Well I don't use OS.. yet, still I love the fact that ZOS is adding diversity to endgame builds.There shouldn't be a single type of way to win (MagDK go brr) in this game.
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Then they should not nerf any set in the game, or ability. We've invested a LOT of time into getting sets, only for the to be gutted months later. We also spend a lot of time practicing 2 bar rotations, light attack weaving etc. for that to also be nerfed. We get nerfs, so in fairness so should oakensoul. What it provides is far too much.

    IMO either outright remove empower from Oakensoul, or give Empower the Minor/Major Treatment - 10% increased heavy attack damage with Minor Empower, and 20% increased heavy attack damage with Major Empower.

    1 Mythic, 2 active abilities and heavy attacking really should not do 100k DPS imo.
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • Red_chimera_oni
    Red_chimera_oni
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    "...

    1 Mythic, 2 active abilities and heavy attacking really should not do 100k DPS imo.

    Why not?
    How that build mess up with your game? They have more dps then you? Go trainne. With perfect rotation you will be better then any oakensoul build.
    They don't have more dps then you? Then what's the problem?

    [snip]
    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 13, 2023 10:21AM
  • Dragonnord
    Dragonnord
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    A ring/build that gives you 100k or close by only hitting 3 keys and 1 click? Sure, it shouldn't be nerfed. Sure, sure.
     
  • Yazrz
    Yazrz
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    Then they should not nerf any set in the game, or ability. We've invested a LOT of time into getting sets, only for the to be gutted months later. We also spend a lot of time practicing 2 bar rotations, light attack weaving etc. for that to also be nerfed. We get nerfs, so in fairness so should oakensoul. What it provides is far too much.

    I agree that nerfing e.g. sets needs that takes time and effort to acquire needs to be done very carefully, as you say to respect player time and effort.

    But saying that because one thing is nerfed, another should be nerfed does not make any sense.

    And I do not think people in general are calling for LA nerfs, we are just arguing that there should be other options available. That does not impact people that have spent time perfecting LA weaving in the least!
    Edited by Yazrz on March 13, 2023 10:04AM
  • Yazrz
    Yazrz
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    Dragonnord wrote: »
    A ring/build that gives you 100k or close by only hitting 3 keys and 1 click? Sure, it shouldn't be nerfed. Sure, sure.
     

    You state that as if it is some fundamental truth, but why should more clicks/keypresses lead to more DPS?

    Noone is arguing to remove complicated/piano builds for people who enjoy those.
    Edited by Yazrz on March 13, 2023 10:06AM
  • SDKTJ
    SDKTJ
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    Oakensoul is fine. It allows more people to do vet content and focus on mechanics rather than their 8 DoT rotation. If those people want to stick with HA builds then that's perfectly fine. If people want to just clear content then they'll probably stick with HA builds, but if they want to start improving then they'll move on to LA builds because they still have the higher ceiling. People getting offended over HA builds is very strange behaviour. I've never seen more people do vet trials and that is great for the overall health of the game.
  • Red_chimera_oni
    Red_chimera_oni
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    [snip]
    Dragonnord wrote: »
    A ring/build that gives you 100k or close by only hitting 3 keys and 1 click? Sure, it shouldn't be nerfed. Sure, sure.
     

    [snip]

    Why its ok for you pressing 10keys and do 130k
    But its not ok press 5keys and do only 100k?

    Take a look at world records. They do any vTrial HM in only some minutes and they use only 2bars. Oakensoul cant even dream about that.
    [snip]
    [edited for trolling & spamming]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 13, 2023 10:24AM
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    _Yulan_ wrote: »
    "...

    1 Mythic, 2 active abilities and heavy attacking really should not do 100k DPS imo.

    Why not?
    How that build mess up with your game? They have more dps then you? Go trainne. With perfect rotation you will be better then any oakensoul build.
    They don't have more dps then you? Then what's the problem?

    [snip]


    They don't have more DPS. 2 Bars still are better. I am just saying that it provides far too much in raw terms of power. It's a build that requires little thought to achieve decent numbers. I can out-dps oaken and have done so. I've also outdpsed it recently in a Veteran Dreadsail Reef run on my stamplar that I've not played in years and made constant mistakes.

    I also respectfully ask you to be civil here, as your recent edit on the post I am quoting and the one above me feels as if... it can make this thread more heated than it needs to be.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 13, 2023 10:25AM
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • me_ming
    me_ming
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    _Yulan_ wrote: »
    "...

    1 Mythic, 2 active abilities and heavy attacking really should not do 100k DPS imo.

    Why not?
    How that build mess up with your game? They have more dps then you? Go trainne. With perfect rotation you will be better then any oakensoul build.
    They don't have more dps then you? Then what's the problem?

    [snip]

    First of all, what the hell is "trainne"?

    Second, it IS funny you're calling people who does less damage with 2 bars as people who does less "trainne" (whatever that means) when you do less practice on a HA build. Your rotations aren't complex, you don't need to practicing HA weaving, if you can call it "weaving". So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    Third, OP doesn't seem to understand that ZoS has changed this game since it's conception. In fact the only constant in this game IS change. I've been playing this game since 2015, so I'm sure even OP knows that if you get attached to your gear you're bound to be nerf at one point.

    [snip] You don't need 3600CP to clear anything that is overland content, you can wear nothing and clear overland content. And from what I understand, they don't do trials or maybe vet content? So really even if they nerf Oakensoul, what does it matter? I play with 250+ ping constantly, and I don't have any problems clearing anything-- even vet content. So yeah, I'm sorry they're disabled, and I can understand that it gets frustrating to not be optimal. But the truth is there are people who also have faced technical difficulties but still are able to complete content. Nerfing Oakensoul should not hinder you from completing anything, especially if you're just doing overland content. Understanding how the game works, because the more you understand, the more you can compensate with the nerf. Trust me, if not this patch or the next, Oakensoul is going to be nerf one way or another. Look, I hate that ZoS is changing everything patch after patch, it's stupid, really. [snip]

    [edited for baiting & to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on March 13, 2023 10:26AM
    "We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
    -Caldwell, "The Final Assault"

    "There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."

    -Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]
  • Armanie
    Armanie
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    as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
    but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn
  • Tranquilizer
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    Did I miss something ? Afaik neither Oakensoul ring nor empower has been nerfed in U37, so what's the goal of this thread ?
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

    Thank you for your understanding.
    Staff Post
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Armanie wrote: »
    as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
    but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn

    Yeah I have to agree empower is a massive issue. Either give it Minor/Major treatment and put Major Empower on Galenwe set, or remove Empower from Oakensoul. It reduces to raw power of the ring, while keeping the other QoL benefits it provides. If people still want Empower, then they can always use a Templar, have someone Run Aegis of Galenwe, or even Rage of the Ursauk.

    Us 2 bar players/Vet raiders optimise by having people run sets/classes that can provide these buffs, and it's not too much to ask that oakensoul players can do this too. It'd also teach them a little about gear optimisation, and maybe in the future they may become more comfortable using 2 bars, leaning away from Oakensoul, if they so chose to do so.
    Edited by Blackbird_V on March 13, 2023 10:35AM
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • Yazrz
    Yazrz
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    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.
  • Yazrz
    Yazrz
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    Armanie wrote: »
    as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
    but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn

    Yeah I have to agree empower is a massive issue. Either give it Minor/Major treatment and put Major Empower on Galenwe set, or remove Empower from Oakensoul. It reduces to raw power of the ring, while keeping the other QoL benefits it provides. If people still want Empower, then they can always use a Templar, have someone Run Aegis of Galenwe, or even Rage of the Ursauk.

    Us 2 bar players/Vet raiders optimise by having people run sets/classes that can provide these buffs, and it's not too much to ask that oakensoul players can do this too. It'd also teach them a little about gear optimisation, and maybe in the future they may become more comfortable using 2 bars, leaning away from Oakensoul, if they so chose to do so.

    Why is this treated as some fundamental truth? Why does raiding need to be tied to utilizing two bars?
  • Liguar
    Liguar
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    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    But aren't you? HA builds exist in the game because sets predating oakensoul that specifically buff heavy attacks exist. Someone somewhere thought that HA were an option players should have.

    (Some werewolves use also use HA builds don't they? I don't know what werewolves do in trials, just saying weres exist as playable characters with predominately one bar design).

    Learning the game in your statement implies that 2 bar LA weaving is the correct way to play, that you learn. I don't see this as an absolute since the HA gear also exists.

    Edit: because Yazrz used the exact same wording and it looks weird.
    Edited by Liguar on March 13, 2023 10:42AM
  • me_ming
    me_ming
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    Yazrz wrote: »
    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

    I agree. And I totally get your point. I have Oakensoul seating on my bank, because honestly I don't know which among my characters to use it. I'm honestly on neither side of this discussion. But my point here is this, as per OP they don't want to disrespect their investment by nerfing the ring. But the truth is, it WILL be nerfed (like I said, may not be now or soon, but eventually it will), I've played this game for soooo long and OP should also already know by now that 2017 ESO is different from 2023 ESO, heck 2021 ESO was completely different from 2022 ESO. As much as any of us wants this game to slow down a bit, it wont. Your investment should be learning the game, and not be attached to your gear/race/class/etc
    "We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
    -Caldwell, "The Final Assault"

    "There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."

    -Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Yazrz wrote: »
    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

    Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

    I'm saying this as learning 2 bars, bar swapping and LA weaving can be a very jarring experience. Practice can indeed help a lot, hell, even if you just ignore light attacking and practice bar swapping, it is a step forward. Then you can try keeping an eye out on timers, maybe throw in a light attack here and there etc. until you become more comfortable. But I understand that it's a lot to take in and learn, and it'd always be better having 2 bars than 1 for end-game content. As for Overland content and Normal dungeons etc... then play however you want. If you're in a group with others that are doing 3k dps then it's a painful experience, but good experience nonetheless as it can teach you.

    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • Red_chimera_oni
    Red_chimera_oni
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    me_ming wrote: »
    "...Your investment should be learning the game, and not be attached to your gear/race/class/etc

    And why do you even care abou what is best for me?
    Why do you care if i play necro, 2bars one bar or naked?
    Only because i dont do what you think i should... You aprove nerf in one bar? Lol. Only becase we dont play like you wish?
  • biminirwb17_ESO
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    Armanie wrote: »
    as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
    but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn

    Yeah I have to agree empower is a massive issue. Either give it Minor/Major treatment and put Major Empower on Galenwe set, or remove Empower from Oakensoul. It reduces to raw power of the ring, while keeping the other QoL benefits it provides. If people still want Empower, then they can always use a Templar, have someone Run Aegis of Galenwe, or even Rage of the Ursauk.

    Us 2 bar players/Vet raiders optimise by having people run sets/classes that can provide these buffs, and it's not too much to ask that oakensoul players can do this too. It'd also teach them a little about gear optimisation, and maybe in the future they may become more comfortable using 2 bars, leaning away from Oakensoul, if they so chose to do so.

    With respect you seem to be missing the point of Oakensoul and making assumptions about those who use it.

    What does an optimised group have to do with a person running their own buffs, as for gear optimisation I fail to see what the ring has to do with that? I am cp 2610 so no newbie.

    I agree with your empower suggestions
  • Dragonredux
    Dragonredux
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    I don't see the point of this thread. You haven't gotten hit yet. Besides if it does happen this wouldn't be first time for HA builds.

    Also you're on a losing battle with the whole "respect player investment" front.
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Yazrz wrote: »
    Armanie wrote: »
    as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
    but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn

    Yeah I have to agree empower is a massive issue. Either give it Minor/Major treatment and put Major Empower on Galenwe set, or remove Empower from Oakensoul. It reduces to raw power of the ring, while keeping the other QoL benefits it provides. If people still want Empower, then they can always use a Templar, have someone Run Aegis of Galenwe, or even Rage of the Ursauk.

    Us 2 bar players/Vet raiders optimise by having people run sets/classes that can provide these buffs, and it's not too much to ask that oakensoul players can do this too. It'd also teach them a little about gear optimisation, and maybe in the future they may become more comfortable using 2 bars, leaning away from Oakensoul, if they so chose to do so.

    Why is this treated as some fundamental truth? Why does raiding need to be tied to utilizing two bars?

    As of right now it doesn't. When you get into vAS+2, vCR+2/3, vSS HM, vKA HM, vRG HM and vDSR HM then 2 bars will be the best option. Doing vRG and vDSR HM with oakensoul will be an absolute painful and agonising experience. vCR+3 with a suboptimal group using Oakensoul can result in a wipe due to Relequen's Voltaic Overload mechanic which requires you to swap bars, else big big damage happens. - read below

    Note: I think ZoS should make Relequen's Voltaic Overload work differently on those who are flagged as using Oakensoul, to make it fair on those doing Veteran Cloudrest. There's a video on this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYBpQ2hbKe0

    If it's a bug, then it should be a baseline feature, even if you have a 2nd weapon equipped backbar when using oaken.
    Edited by Blackbird_V on March 13, 2023 10:48AM
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • Yazrz
    Yazrz
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    Yazrz wrote: »
    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

    Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

    Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

    But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
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    Armanie wrote: »
    as a HA user myself even I feel like im cheating lol
    but don't nerf OS, it's only empower that's way too op rn

    Yeah I have to agree empower is a massive issue. Either give it Minor/Major treatment and put Major Empower on Galenwe set, or remove Empower from Oakensoul. It reduces to raw power of the ring, while keeping the other QoL benefits it provides. If people still want Empower, then they can always use a Templar, have someone Run Aegis of Galenwe, or even Rage of the Ursauk.

    Us 2 bar players/Vet raiders optimise by having people run sets/classes that can provide these buffs, and it's not too much to ask that oakensoul players can do this too. It'd also teach them a little about gear optimisation, and maybe in the future they may become more comfortable using 2 bars, leaning away from Oakensoul, if they so chose to do so.

    With respect you seem to be missing the point of Oakensoul and making assumptions about those who use it.

    What does an optimised group have to do with a person running their own buffs, as for gear optimisation I fail to see what the ring has to do with that? I am cp 2610 so no newbie.

    I agree with your empower suggestions

    An optimised group even with all DDs wearing oakensoul can still provide them with more DPS. Having a DD swap out Storm Master set with something like Alkosh can help all of those in the group with Penetration, increasing their DPS even more. You can also ask a DD that will likely be using Storm Master to swap out to Necromancer + Master Architect to give people Major Slayer + Major Vulnerability, increasing their damage even more with another buff.
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
  • me_ming
    me_ming
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    Yazrz wrote: »
    Yazrz wrote: »
    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

    Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

    Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

    But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.

    Just saying before CP and before Oakensoul, people were learning how trials work. So it's also not necessarily true that Oakensoul IS the best route to learning trial mechanics.
    "We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
    -Caldwell, "The Final Assault"

    "There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."

    -Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]
  • Yazrz
    Yazrz
    ✭✭✭
    me_ming wrote: »
    Yazrz wrote: »
    Yazrz wrote: »
    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

    Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

    Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

    But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.

    Just saying before CP and before Oakensoul, people were learning how trials work. So it's also not necessarily true that Oakensoul IS the best route to learning trial mechanics.

    Of course, it may be far from the best. The point is just that having more options is always better!
  • biminirwb17_ESO
    biminirwb17_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Again you are missing the point of Oakensoul for many players, I can't run top tier dungeons normally with one arm but can do a reasonable job with oakensoul.

    Maybe the distinction is some of us need it, while others don't?
  • Blackbird_V
    Blackbird_V
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yazrz wrote: »
    Yazrz wrote: »
    me_ming wrote: »
    So while I don't shame people who use HA builds and that I am glad that SOME of them are doing more dps 2 bar builds, there is no shame if you're doing less dps, because at least you're trying to learn this game.

    I think this is the crux. Why would utilizing a 2 bar build be "trying to learn this game". ESO is clearly stated as being able to be played in many different ways. So why should 2 bar builds be mandatory?

    Some people like it, and others would prefer a different way of playing. One way is not more correct than another.

    Whilst not mandatory - it can be a massive hindrance. In normal content like overland, or normal dungeons then you can get away with it for the most part, but more more recent DLC dungeons not so much. As for Veteran Dungeons and Trials, especially Veteran Trial HM's and DLC's & their Hard Modes, having access to 2 bars is a massive benefit as you can have self-heals, shields, bit more DOTs on enemies and bosses. To each their own though.

    Agreed that 2 bars allow more flexibility, and honestly I would like to see more of that usage, where a second bar could be an utility bar. I.e. one bar being sufficient for DPS. (of course that would not work with oakensoul)

    But to get to that point one first need to get into the raids and learn the mechanics. That is imo where the difficulty should lie, in executing the mechanics, not to have a massive hill to learn ones kit.

    The DLC Trials and their Hard Modes can be a massive hill as well for those not well versed into combat mechanics.

    The Craglorn Trials and even Sunspire is a good place to start. Sunspire is a pretty easy Trial where the only difficulty is really last boss Trash Add phase.

    I think ZoS can DEFINITELY do more to help people understand the basics of combat. I am not sure how, but better tutorials with bar swapping, what light attacking is etc.

    There are videos on it, and this one is a pretty solid and in-depth Light attack weaving guide: Goes really into depth with timings as well. There's addons that help with light attacking too:

    Weave Delays: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2657-WeaveDelays.html
    Light Attack Helper: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2048-LightAttackHelper.html
    Combat Metronome: https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info2373-CombatMetronomeGCDTracker.html
    Edited by Blackbird_V on March 13, 2023 10:58AM
    Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.
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