The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Holycannoli wrote: »

I feel the complete opposite. I don't like losing anything or taking from someone. PvP is not about loss of items/supplies/something but about competition.

I think most people feel the same considering how there's almost noone in IC unless it's the event.

How many MMORPGs featuring item loss on PvP death are popular?

If the devs want to release another PvP DLC they have to stay far away from that.

Imperial City is run by zergs because of the quitter mentality that is pervasive throughout ESO. People don’t see failure as a means to adapt and get better, they see it as discouragement.

These quitters then proceed to take the easiest route, either quitting PvP and jumping onto the forums to argue against improving the feature for everyone, or join the faction with the largest groups during the time zone they play.

Not sure how what you said relates to what I said. I talked about PvP that includes losing items/gear/supplies/currency/whatever. It won't be popular at all in this game. IC is wholly dead except during the event while Cyrodiil remains popular (Grey Host is usually pop locked).

There is a reason for that. More than one really but the main reason is the risk of losing your Tel Var, with a secondary and related reason being the ganking it promotes. In Cyrodiil you lose nothing but your sanity when the lag hits in a large battle.

This topic seems to come up in every MMO these days. When they announced the new year roadmap for New World there was the same uproar that there was nothing for PVP.

Since I am a pure PVE player in these types of games I always wonder what it is that PVP people actually want in updates and expansions? You get all the new sets, zones, music, classes, systems with every expansion. Do you want it to be like Warzone for instance where they cut chunks out of the big map and put borders around them so you have 'new terrain' to play on against other players?

I don't mind if they cater to both playstyles. As long as ZOS don't force me into a playstyle I don't want to play or gate expansion rewards artificially behind specific PVP challenges. Because then many will look for another game to put time and money in.

The fact that they keep the release roadmap the same for years now usually means that a bunch of analysts, smart marketing people and a lot of data crunching proves that this is the most profitable way to do business while keeping the player base stable or growing steadily. If that wasn't the case they would have switched strategy by now.

Lebkuchen wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Thank you for tagging me on this and glad you purchased and supported the game so much. The one thing I noted after reading this is that outside of purchasing the base game none of the purchases were directly related to PvP.

It demonstrates my point perfectly that PvP is not directly monetized as none of the expenses were required in order to play PvP. None.

I tagged you, because you seem to be interested in this topic. But you are defending some idea of "direct monetization" while you completely miss the point.

EVERY cent i spent in this game was because of PvP.

We buy the whole game, and we finance every part of this big beautiful world, even if we just want to play some smaller parts of it. Maybe it has gotten too big and broad by now and needs a way for people to show what parts of the game they want to be focused by developers. A few months ago i suggested crown store articles with a purpose. Housing items like mini server farms for better performance. Or bee hives to finance bug fixes. Dragon mounts to make flying possible... Because i was desperate and i am still desperate. I think i made it clear that i am willing to invest a lot in this game. But people in this forum did not like my idea. For good reasons. We already paid for this game. Multiple times. And we should not have to pay extra for it to work. That should be included in the price we paid.

I have acknowledged that players who are essentialy exclusively PvP do spend money on areas of the game to get their gear and more. So I fail to see why you are bringing that up as I have openly acknowledged that.

So it is fine that people disagree with my statement that PvP is not directly monetized even though we can play all PvP in ESO for free after buying the base game for small money, but I am not the one that needs to be convinced about change. I merely pointed out what the people who do make such decisions could be looking at based on the history of PvP in this game.

Nothing more than that.

One trouble is:

PVP is an inherently "unsatisfying" thing for many, because they will get killed more often than they kill. They will "lose" more than they "win". Each kill is counted as a win, each death is counted as a loss. And nobody likes "losing" all the time.

People who are "good" at it... need to have targets. This means they need to have a lot people who are content to lose more than they win, in order to supply the number of wins that they get.

And most people don't like losing more than they win. So they leave.

And the trouble is you can never be in a position where people who are not good at open-world PVP have anything approaching a 50% win/loss rate.

The best you can do is have a large population of newbies so that, by sheer weight of numbers, said newbies end up fighting most of the time against *other newbies*, not against experienced pros. Then, at least, they have a chance of finding it fun, rather than finding it frustrating to get killed over and over again in one hit.

And even then. The ones who aren't good even at that... will quit. Leaving a new set of players to take their place as the worst people in the division. Then they quit too, and for the same reason. And the more and more "bad" PVPers quit, the harder it is for anyone new to actually break in and have a satisfactory experience.

That's why, even with the zone caps on Cyrodiil and Imperial City having been reduced, and reduced, and reduced, the areas are still mostly empty most of the time. You can ride across most of Cyrodiil, even nominally enemy-controlled territory, and never see another player. Frequently there isn't even a keep under attack.

Fact is, what a lot of PVPers really want is "more masochists who don't mind dying all the time and losing their stuff to me, so I can farm them for gain". But for this, PVP has to offer something to its *losers* - something that the losers can't lose, can only gain.

This is the problem with Tel Var. It's supposed to be the PVP thing, but most people will lose it, over and over again, while a few people hog it by stealing it. Until eventually there is nobody around to steal from.

As for Cyrodiil... It can take ages to get to a keep that's actually under attack. Then you get one-shot killed, you've got to spend a long time riding back, only for the same thing to happen again. That's not fun. And that's the PVP experience of most people. The ones who *do* the one-shotting are satisfied: the many, many more who are just their cannon-fodder don't find it fun. Most of the time you're spending trying to run TO a fight that you don't even have a chance in.

jle30303 wrote: »

One trouble is:

PVP is an inherently "unsatisfying" thing for many, because they will get killed more often than they kill. They will "lose" more than they "win". Each kill is counted as a win, each death is counted as a loss. And nobody likes "losing" all the time.

People who are "good" at it... need to have targets. This means they need to have a lot people who are content to lose more than they win, in order to supply the number of wins that they get.

And most people don't like losing more than they win. So they leave.

And the trouble is you can never be in a position where people who are not good at open-world PVP have anything approaching a 50% win/loss rate.

The best you can do is have a large population of newbies so that, by sheer weight of numbers, said newbies end up fighting most of the time against *other newbies*, not against experienced pros. Then, at least, they have a chance of finding it fun, rather than finding it frustrating to get killed over and over again in one hit.

And even then. The ones who aren't good even at that... will quit. Leaving a new set of players to take their place as the worst people in the division. Then they quit too, and for the same reason. And the more and more "bad" PVPers quit, the harder it is for anyone new to actually break in and have a satisfactory experience.

That's why, even with the zone caps on Cyrodiil and Imperial City having been reduced, and reduced, and reduced, the areas are still mostly empty most of the time. You can ride across most of Cyrodiil, even nominally enemy-controlled territory, and never see another player. Frequently there isn't even a keep under attack.

Fact is, what a lot of PVPers really want is "more masochists who don't mind dying all the time and losing their stuff to me, so I can farm them for gain". But for this, PVP has to offer something to its *losers* - something that the losers can't lose, can only gain.

This is the problem with Tel Var. It's supposed to be the PVP thing, but most people will lose it, over and over again, while a few people hog it by stealing it. Until eventually there is nobody around to steal from.

As for Cyrodiil... It can take ages to get to a keep that's actually under attack. Then you get one-shot killed, you've got to spend a long time riding back, only for the same thing to happen again. That's not fun. And that's the PVP experience of most people. The ones who *do* the one-shotting are satisfied: the many, many more who are just their cannon-fodder don't find it fun. Most of the time you're spending trying to run TO a fight that you don't even have a chance in.

This is not why PvP is bleeding players and has been for years.

PvP is bleeding players because ZOS does not fix repeated performance issues in a timely fashion or ever, like the block bug or the stuck in combat bug, and continues to add game breaking sets to the game. The next set to break PvP will be the Snake in the stars set. The population caps keep being reduced in PvP zones because ZOS does not lease enough server to support the number of players who want to PvP, so performance is always bad during huge battles. ZOS is, in effect, pushing PvP players to leave by not supporting PvP with devs that play the game and understand how PvP works and they don't invest in the hardware to keep PvP running smoothly. It really is that simple.