Major Berserk Should Not Be on Chains at All

Wuuffyy · February 2023

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

The salient point is prioritization.

Giving an offensive buff to DK (not to mention Major Berserk, of all things) is the absolute last thing that needs to happen to balance or improve the game.

It does not instill confidence that anyone has a clue what the current state of pvp is.

It's true that the timing was poor, but that is a temporary issue. Long term the 10s Major Berserk on Empowering Chains would have been a good change to a terrible morph. Other classes will end up stronger than DK at some point (likely in a few months when the chapter releases).

Chains has been weak much longer than DK has been good, about 5 years now since it was made into the worst gap closer. I highly doubt that the devs will revisit this one after balancing classes better. We had our chance at something nice, overreacted and blew it.

None of this, right now, is making the chains having Major berserk now okay.

And, it’s fine that they have reworked an underutilized skill, however, you could add plenty of things other than this to the skill for it to see a lot more use.

Major berserk only being on one of the strongest classes right now that also get a unique minor damage buff and can sustain+tank without issue just doesn’t make sense from a balancing standpoint.

Wuuffyy · February 2023

I thought this might be a funny read for all those that think I only play this or that class/bias:

If this isn’t nerfed, I’m quite literally putting this on my dk corrosive bomber (which is already better than a necro bomber) just for the Major berserk and gap closer alone. The other stuff is just icing lol.

DrSlaughtr · February 2023

It's crazy to me how every skill has to have 20 effects on it rather than just doing one or two things really well. But every other post on here is 'buff this skill so I will use it more'. How about you just use it for its function and be happy with any additional active or passive effects?

Caribou77 · February 2023

This is a good observation, DrS. Given the number of years, it’s pretty astounding that 4 classes still don’t have a viable spammable for pvp. Something that simple. (Necro, Magsorc, Warden, and now Templar).

Seems like a class spammable and a class heal that can be used effectively for pvp would be a place to start. But no… Dozens of useless class skills remain instead.

ForumBully · February 2023

Caribou77 wrote: »

This is a good observation, DrS. Given the number of years, it’s pretty astounding that 4 classes still don’t have a viable spammable for pvp. Something that simple. (Necro, Magsorc, Warden, and now Templar).

Seems like a class spammable and a class heal that can be used effectively for pvp would be a place to start. But no… Dozens of useless class skills remain instead.

ZOS seems to believe that handicaps give special class flavors.

Turtle_Bot · February 2023

katorga wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

The salient point is prioritization.

Giving an offensive buff to DK (not to mention Major Berserk, of all things) is the absolute last thing that needs to happen to balance or improve the game.

It does not instill confidence that anyone has a clue what the current state of pvp is.

Or PvE for that Matter. DK is dominating on both fronts, it doesn't need more imo

This, both NB and DK really need some heavy nerfs to get them back down to some form of parity with other classes. Both classes are completely overloaded at this point.

While they are loading up those two classes. There are *still* classes with no class access to:

Major Sorcery/Brutalty (DK has both major/minor)
Major Berserk (NB has access to both Major/Minor berserk, plus unnamed 10% & 20% damage buffs)
Major Expedition (NB has both major/minor, on different skills no less so they stack)
Major Cowardice (NB has both major/minor)
Major Evasion
Major Breach
Any form of usable CC
Execute skills
Burst heal skills

To add to this list, major prophecy/savagery as well

Urzigurumash · February 2023

Caribou77 wrote: »

This is a good observation, DrS. Given the number of years, it’s pretty astounding that 4 classes still don’t have a viable spammable for pvp. Something that simple. (Necro, Magsorc, Warden, and now Templar).

Seems like a class spammable and a class heal that can be used effectively for pvp would be a place to start. But no… Dozens of useless class skills remain instead.

What's wrong with Weapon Skill Spammables? Why do they exist? StamDK was originally a "Knight" class that used Weapons to deal damage rather than a magical whip, that made sense to me.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major berserk only being on one of the strongest classes right now that also get a unique minor damage buff and can sustain+tank without issue just doesn’t make sense from a balancing standpoint.

It does make sense because it does nothing to disrupt class balance, DK is S+ and will remain S+.

Chilly-McFreeze · February 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major berserk only being on one of the strongest classes right now that also get a unique minor damage buff and can sustain+tank without issue just doesn’t make sense from a balancing standpoint.

It does make sense because it does nothing to disrupt class balance, DK is S+ and will remain S+.

It widens the gap even further. No issue with that?

Urzigurumash · February 2023

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Major berserk only being on one of the strongest classes right now that also get a unique minor damage buff and can sustain+tank without issue just doesn’t make sense from a balancing standpoint.

It does make sense because it does nothing to disrupt class balance, DK is S+ and will remain S+.

It widens the gap even further. No issue with that?

Nope, it doesn't change a thing, if you want 2 button godmode, you pick DK, if you want a compelling experience, you don't.

A match of all truly competitive players, who have no regard for fun gameplay and only for winning, will be all DKs.

A match of all players seeking challenging and rewarding gameplay, aka RPers, will be 0 DKs.

Caribou77 · February 2023

Well Urz, I certainly respect your knowledge of the game, based on many of your posts, but imo this is cynical. I suppose in theory these forums are a tool for helping combat devs work toward class balance, as diverse play/combat options = more fun = more players = more $ubsctiptions, everyone wins.

But it doesn’t seem to work that way. So. Your cold realism is understandable.

Regarding weapon skills as spammables: as a frontbar staff/magicka moron (that’s self-deprecating, please do not snip me) the destruction staff skill line is very mediocre for pvp. I guess the interrupt on Crushing Shock is about the only thing going for it. Damage from destro staff line is very mediocre compared with DK or NB class spammables, or good old Spin to Win, arguably the 2nd most skill-less overused ability in the game.

Urzigurumash · February 2023

Caribou77 wrote: »

Well Urz, I certainly respect your knowledge of the game, based on many of your posts, but imo this is cynical. I suppose in theory these forums are a tool for helping combat devs work toward class balance, as diverse play/combat options = more fun = more players = more $ubsctiptions, everyone wins.

But it doesn’t seem to work that way. So. Your cold realism is understandable.

Regarding weapon skills as spammables: as a frontbar staff/magicka moron (that’s self-deprecating, please do not snip me) the destruction staff skill line is very mediocre for pvp. I guess the interrupt on Crushing Shock is about the only thing going for it. Damage from destro staff line is very mediocre compared with DK or NB class spammables, or good old Spin to Win, arguably the 2nd most skill-less overused ability in the game.

Well thank you, I appreciate that very much, my knowledge of this game is deep - but quite narrow. I really only know about one thing and one thing only, playing sDK in PvP. You are quite right that it's a jaded take on the PvP class balance issue with this buff.

But, as I've said about Oakensoul suggesting easy access to Major Berserk / Force / Courage could be favorable to the pace of combat in PvP, I see this buff as a potential improvement in the long haul - with the obvious consequence of the continued imbalance of DK in PvP.

I know next to nothing about PvE, but I strongly feel that much of DK's newfound power in PvP lies in the interaction of the revised World in Ruin with the Flame Damage Taken penalty on Vampirism. The revision to Undeath and Vampirism, the nerf to HP Regen, and the revision to World in Ruin happened in such a short time that an unexpectedly powerful in PvP DK resulted. I suspect these recent changes rather than old powers of DK - the Healing Received bonus, Fossilize, Leap, etc.

But in PvE where not all opponents are Vampires, that World in Ruin revision may have been necessary to elevate DK to a capable DD in PvE. The Devs have made it clear, every class should be able to fulfill every role in PvE. That's a goal that those of us concerned with class balance in PvP should accept, support, and keep in mind with our suggestions. Even if I always waved off concerns about PvE DK Healing and DDing with the idea that - DK is a tank, obediently put on your Ebon and Alkosh in service to every lordly DD you meet along your way, that is the path of the Knight - as you say, with better class balance, everybody wins, and every class fulfilling every role in PvE is quite clearly class balance.

I have no clue what Major Berserk on Chains means for PvE, but it must have something to do with DK in the PvE DD role, and while I see everybody saying DK is too powerful there too, this could be a stepping stone to ironing that out. Give every class access to more of the important Major Buffs - and putting them on active skills means you can enforce some mutual exclusivity here by having "Tank" and "DD" morphs, opposed to the somewhat outdated Mag or Stam, increasing viability for the classes in the DD or Tank role in PvE, while forcing more separation between "Tank" and "DD" specs in PvP. Give the Tank Morph of Chains Major Vitality, or something, for instance, and it won't be such a sure thing that a PvP DK runs the Berserk Chains.

Yes for PvP in particular it's quite unexpected that DK and DK alone would get this buff now.

But, we've been patient before, if you agree with me that those Major Buffs on Oakensoul were fun to have - despite that ring's depravation of skillfulness - then this seems like a step in the right direction.

And really, given the state of DK on live, what's the difference?