EF321 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Doesn't the set being discussed do oblivion damage up to once per second for 6 seconds when the target heals themselves? Am I remembering that right?

It's going to be a very powerful set, but one could argue that shields are the counter to this. I wouldn't say this is something shield stacking sorcs need to worry about. Not specifically.

IIRC oblivion damage bypasses shield and damages health directly. At least it was like that at some point... who knows with all the constant changes to core mechanics.

it used to in summerset with sloads. iirc it got changed to no longer ignore shields, but ignores all mitigation on shields and enemies meaning it deals its full damage to shields and players alike.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

EF321 wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Doesn't the set being discussed do oblivion damage up to once per second for 6 seconds when the target heals themselves? Am I remembering that right?

It's going to be a very powerful set, but one could argue that shields are the counter to this. I wouldn't say this is something shield stacking sorcs need to worry about. Not specifically.

IIRC oblivion damage bypasses shield and damages health directly. At least it was like that at some point... who knows with all the constant changes to core mechanics.

it used to in summerset with sloads. iirc it got changed to no longer ignore shields, but ignores all mitigation on shields and enemies meaning it deals its full damage to shields and players alike.

Oh wow... so at various points in time shields used to:
Ignore crit damage
Take crit damage as usual
Had zero resistances
Inherit resistances
Inherit block mitigation
Ignore block mitigation
Be ignored by oblivion damage
Not ignore oblivion damage

...

How do I even know where we at now?

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Naw, static wave is right.

You can come back and rage here when he wrecks you on an oblivion damage build stacking 40k hp and 12k ward on his stam sorc.

I don't come and rage at all. Static is a 1vX cyro player and duelist. I do premade bgs and some small scale and large scale cyro. We essentially never cross paths.

I am looking forward to using ward on my stam sorc, who will indeed have 45k hp.

AdamLAD wrote: »

The changes do not need to be drastic, buff other wards a bit, and lower the cost, and I'll be happier. There's a cap on wards for the specific reason Zos understands that stacking them can be annoying. I understand the sentiment. However, it make it easier for us to reach the cap.
If Zos doesn't want wards to scale from weapon and spell damage aswell as magicka just like healing then change the way scale from max magicka, make it better so we have a way better chance of hitting the cap and lower the cost of wards. A 17% buff to one ward is simply not good enough in today's climate.
If they lowered the cost of wards significantly we could run more weapon and spell damage to buff our damage that we complain about. It would be way more in line with other classes 7k weapon damage and 30k resistances with 35k health.
Let me just remind you that 7k weapon damage is equivalent to 71k max magicka roughly and you have your max stats on top which will probably be 25k so in max stats equivalent you will have 96k max stats. Sorcerers can't even reach 71k magicka never mind 96k with 30k resistance and 35k health. I did some testing. With BTB and alfiq, swam mothers and domi, max mag cp, mage mundus, Ghastly, breton ect. We can get 56k magicka, and 3.6k spell damage buffed. That's equivalent to 93k roughly magicka in terms of raw power. So 3k less, we only had 18k resistance and 19k hp, completely pointless as wards are capped lol and scaling from max magicka is terrible. So not only do we have less physical power, we have capped physical power. Whilst other classes run free uncapped.
Plus wards are insanely expensive and so is Streak, however streak should be so as long as we get buffs in other areas

Brrrofski wrote: »

Even a bigger shield while nice, doesn't matter too much.

At some point, I'll lose health. The problem is, sorc healing is trash so getting back to full health is problematic. So I can still use a shield, but my health will still be whittled away quicker than I can regain it.

Plus if you stack health instead of mag for your shield, your heals are even worse.

Just give sorc a one slot, reliable heal for the love of god.

Next patch I might have a slightly bigger shield. I'm still going to have to crutch on Mara's Balm to stay have decent healing though.

That's the drawback of shields, unfortunately.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Other classes got mobility buff from mist form and sorc got cheese gameplay with wards scaling with health

Buffs and nerfs for next PTS iteration
1. Remove wards scaling on health. Cap health instead when wards are slotted. Start scaling down ward size after 25k health maybe
2. Major protection on hardened ward
2. Minor protection and increase ward size by 20% on healing ward and harness magicka.
4. Remove stacking cost on streak and BOL (Needs a buff now since all classes have streak). BOL should absorb all projectiles for 3 seconds
5. Make rune cage instant cc and remove damage
6. Increase damage of mines and curse by 20%

I don't think anybody would ever approve of this lol. The list looks kind of ridiculous...

So having a 13k ward on 40k health abusing oblivion damage isn’t ridiculous ?

Giving streak like skill to everyone isn’t ridiculous ?

My list of changes is definitely more balanced than the above mate

Also most of these changes I suggested already existed in the game at some point. Wasn’t ridiculous at that point was it?

1) I didn't quite understand this suggestion. Are you also asking for the removal of ward size cap based on max health? If so then I'm not really fond of fighting against builds with 30k shields and 20k HP. I've gone through that and it was not fun.

2) & 3) I am also against this because again, it's not fun fighting 30k+ shields that also have dmg mitigation.

4) This is definitely a BIG no. I don't want to fight a sorc that can streak 5x in a row, and then 5x some more and still sit at 50% magicka. Nobody wants to fight that lol. I also don't want to fight old BoL either. It was pretty broken against ranged players.

5) You have Streak

6) Hard no. Curse's tooltip is equivalent to Dizzying Swing, but more reliable. I am already hitting 8k crit dizzies against normal builds while only having ~64% crit dmg. I know people who can hit 10-11k curses. You're asking for Curse to deal upwards of 14-15k dmg. That's insane.

If you don’t have a problem with 40k hp stam sorc with 12k wards doing cheese oblivion damage then you shouldn’t have a problem killing 20k hp mag sorcs with 30k wards with no cheese

If you don’t have a problem killing dks with major berserk and streak, then you wouldn’t have a problem killing sorcs with old BOL

If you don’t have a problem killing NB’s doing 15k incaps and 30k spectral bows, then a 14k curse shouldn’t matter.

Inspite of these buffs I suggest there is still nothing which another class cannot do better.

Now obviously players are terrified what mag sorc mains would do to them on a playable class so I guess we won’t be getting buffs anytime soon

I can't recall the last time I died to an oblivion damage build though. If you choose to play a full shield zero heal build and die to oblivion damage when the game has given you options like Vigor to solve that issue that's on you. It's not like my 30k HP no shield build isn't affected by oblivion dmg either.

I've fought 20k magsorcs with 30k wards hitting me for 9k crit frags. It was not fun. You're basically saying you want to build max damage while having an effective HP of 50k. You might as well say you want to be given emp stats lol.

No DK is going to slot both Chains and new Mist Form. They are going to give up something in their kit.

I understand you're comparing NB and Sorc because they are similar in many ways, but that's not a fair comparison. NB's damage is front-loaded into 1 ability. You dodge it, you're safe, but if you don't then you get one shotted. Sorc's damage is back-loaded into multiple abilities. You dodge 1, you're still taking damage from another, but it's more set up compared to NB. Both classes have similar burst potential but delivered in different ways with their own drawbacks. What you've just suggested is basically asking for Sorc to have both back-loaded and front-loaded damage - aka zero drawbacks. That's not balanced in any way.

Idk, Maybe I m too old school or ppl just don’t 1vx anymore

A 40k hp sorc is not gonna die in a single burst. Not unless you play nb. High HP players dealing decent damage are a major headache in outnumbered situations.

A 20k sorc will die though. You setup a cc when shields are about to expire and it’s gg. There is significant counterplay for running low health on sorc

Hey man, we all want to go back to the old days. I want to go back to when Dizzying Swing had the stun and the big boy dmg tool tip, or when Heroic Slash had a decent tool tip and Steel Tornado was usable. But they had their own balance issues too. With how hybridization is, maybe it’s for the better those abilities stay unchanged.

I’ve actually played a shield stamsorc build 6 months before this PTS patch. Yes you heard it right. I was in a 45k HP stamsorc with Absorbed Missile and Hardened Ward. I was really tough to kill for ranged players, but it wasn’t as hard for melee players to kill me. I don’t think it’s going to be an issue for the new patch because not only are you losing damage going max HP, you’re also kinda forced to use Asylum SnB if you want to sustain Hardened Ward AND Streak on a stamsorc.

My problem with the argument that a 20k HP and 30k shield sorc can be killed in a single burst is assuming you can easily capitalize on a sorc dropping shields. I’ve dueled very strong magsorcs like @Pelican and @MetallicMonk who block cast a lot of their abilities when they aren’t casting shields to basically block the majority of your burst, then reapply a shield afterwards. It’s a hard counter for burst builds because the window where you can land a combo between their block-casting is very very small, and latency makes it nearly impossible to sneak one in.

Shields are also a soft counter for burst damage. A 30k shield will negate 30k worth of burst damage, so when used by a mechanically good player you actually need to run a DoT build to counter that. Burst builds can’t fight that at all. It wouldn’t even matter if you have 20k or 16k HP at that point. If you’re not getting through his 30k shield, then he ain’t dying.

That was my issue fighting magsorcs using that build. Sure they were at 16k HP, but they were also in a full sustain build with over 3.5k mag regen and 50k+ max magicka. They were constantly reapplying Harden + Dampen ward and I couldn’t even do a single thing to kill them lol. 25k+ shield value that can be reapplied was not fun to fight against. What sucks about fighting that build was you also took a lot of damage too. I took 8-9k crit frags and 6k crit curses, and when 21k HP was considered high it was borderline impossible to fight them as a stamsorc.

StaticWave wrote: »

I can't recall the last time I died to an oblivion damage build though. If you choose to play a full shield zero heal build and die to oblivion damage when the game has given you options like Vigor to solve that issue that's on you. It's not like my 30k HP no shield build isn't affected by oblivion dmg either.

Well, that's gonna change real soon.
The Snake in the Stars set is going to enable exactly the kind of gameplay being described there.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

AdamLAD wrote: »

The changes do not need to be drastic, buff other wards a bit, and lower the cost, and I'll be happier. There's a cap on wards for the specific reason Zos understands that stacking them can be annoying. I understand the sentiment. However, it make it easier for us to reach the cap.
If Zos doesn't want wards to scale from weapon and spell damage aswell as magicka just like healing then change the way scale from max magicka, make it better so we have a way better chance of hitting the cap and lower the cost of wards. A 17% buff to one ward is simply not good enough in today's climate.
If they lowered the cost of wards significantly we could run more weapon and spell damage to buff our damage that we complain about. It would be way more in line with other classes 7k weapon damage and 30k resistances with 35k health.
Let me just remind you that 7k weapon damage is equivalent to 71k max magicka roughly and you have your max stats on top which will probably be 25k so in max stats equivalent you will have 96k max stats. Sorcerers can't even reach 71k magicka never mind 96k with 30k resistance and 35k health. I did some testing. With BTB and alfiq, swam mothers and domi, max mag cp, mage mundus, Ghastly, breton ect. We can get 56k magicka, and 3.6k spell damage buffed. That's equivalent to 93k roughly magicka in terms of raw power. So 3k less, we only had 18k resistance and 19k hp, completely pointless as wards are capped lol and scaling from max magicka is terrible. So not only do we have less physical power, we have capped physical power. Whilst other classes run free uncapped.
Plus wards are insanely expensive and so is Streak, however streak should be so as long as we get buffs in other areas

Brrrofski wrote: »

Even a bigger shield while nice, doesn't matter too much.

At some point, I'll lose health. The problem is, sorc healing is trash so getting back to full health is problematic. So I can still use a shield, but my health will still be whittled away quicker than I can regain it.

Plus if you stack health instead of mag for your shield, your heals are even worse.

Just give sorc a one slot, reliable heal for the love of god.

Next patch I might have a slightly bigger shield. I'm still going to have to crutch on Mara's Balm to stay have decent healing though.

That's the drawback of shields, unfortunately.

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

PhoenixGrey wrote: »

Other classes got mobility buff from mist form and sorc got cheese gameplay with wards scaling with health

Buffs and nerfs for next PTS iteration
1. Remove wards scaling on health. Cap health instead when wards are slotted. Start scaling down ward size after 25k health maybe
2. Major protection on hardened ward
2. Minor protection and increase ward size by 20% on healing ward and harness magicka.
4. Remove stacking cost on streak and BOL (Needs a buff now since all classes have streak). BOL should absorb all projectiles for 3 seconds
5. Make rune cage instant cc and remove damage
6. Increase damage of mines and curse by 20%

I don't think anybody would ever approve of this lol. The list looks kind of ridiculous...

So having a 13k ward on 40k health abusing oblivion damage isn’t ridiculous ?

Giving streak like skill to everyone isn’t ridiculous ?

My list of changes is definitely more balanced than the above mate

Also most of these changes I suggested already existed in the game at some point. Wasn’t ridiculous at that point was it?

1) I didn't quite understand this suggestion. Are you also asking for the removal of ward size cap based on max health? If so then I'm not really fond of fighting against builds with 30k shields and 20k HP. I've gone through that and it was not fun.

2) & 3) I am also against this because again, it's not fun fighting 30k+ shields that also have dmg mitigation.

4) This is definitely a BIG no. I don't want to fight a sorc that can streak 5x in a row, and then 5x some more and still sit at 50% magicka. Nobody wants to fight that lol. I also don't want to fight old BoL either. It was pretty broken against ranged players.

5) You have Streak

6) Hard no. Curse's tooltip is equivalent to Dizzying Swing, but more reliable. I am already hitting 8k crit dizzies against normal builds while only having ~64% crit dmg. I know people who can hit 10-11k curses. You're asking for Curse to deal upwards of 14-15k dmg. That's insane.

If you don’t have a problem with 40k hp stam sorc with 12k wards doing cheese oblivion damage then you shouldn’t have a problem killing 20k hp mag sorcs with 30k wards with no cheese

If you don’t have a problem killing dks with major berserk and streak, then you wouldn’t have a problem killing sorcs with old BOL

If you don’t have a problem killing NB’s doing 15k incaps and 30k spectral bows, then a 14k curse shouldn’t matter.

Inspite of these buffs I suggest there is still nothing which another class cannot do better.

Now obviously players are terrified what mag sorc mains would do to them on a playable class so I guess we won’t be getting buffs anytime soon

I can't recall the last time I died to an oblivion damage build though. If you choose to play a full shield zero heal build and die to oblivion damage when the game has given you options like Vigor to solve that issue that's on you. It's not like my 30k HP no shield build isn't affected by oblivion dmg either.

I've fought 20k magsorcs with 30k wards hitting me for 9k crit frags. It was not fun. You're basically saying you want to build max damage while having an effective HP of 50k. You might as well say you want to be given emp stats lol.

No DK is going to slot both Chains and new Mist Form. They are going to give up something in their kit.

I understand you're comparing NB and Sorc because they are similar in many ways, but that's not a fair comparison. NB's damage is front-loaded into 1 ability. You dodge it, you're safe, but if you don't then you get one shotted. Sorc's damage is back-loaded into multiple abilities. You dodge 1, you're still taking damage from another, but it's more set up compared to NB. Both classes have similar burst potential but delivered in different ways with their own drawbacks. What you've just suggested is basically asking for Sorc to have both back-loaded and front-loaded damage - aka zero drawbacks. That's not balanced in any way.

Idk, Maybe I m too old school or ppl just don’t 1vx anymore

A 40k hp sorc is not gonna die in a single burst. Not unless you play nb. High HP players dealing decent damage are a major headache in outnumbered situations.

A 20k sorc will die though. You setup a cc when shields are about to expire and it’s gg. There is significant counterplay for running low health on sorc

Hey man, we all want to go back to the old days. I want to go back to when Dizzying Swing had the stun and the big boy dmg tool tip, or when Heroic Slash had a decent tool tip and Steel Tornado was usable. But they had their own balance issues too. With how hybridization is, maybe it’s for the better those abilities stay unchanged.

I’ve actually played a shield stamsorc build 6 months before this PTS patch. Yes you heard it right. I was in a 45k HP stamsorc with Absorbed Missile and Hardened Ward. I was really tough to kill for ranged players, but it wasn’t as hard for melee players to kill me. I don’t think it’s going to be an issue for the new patch because not only are you losing damage going max HP, you’re also kinda forced to use Asylum SnB if you want to sustain Hardened Ward AND Streak on a stamsorc.

My problem with the argument that a 20k HP and 30k shield sorc can be killed in a single burst is assuming you can easily capitalize on a sorc dropping shields. I’ve dueled very strong magsorcs like @Pelican and @MetallicMonk who block cast a lot of their abilities when they aren’t casting shields to basically block the majority of your burst, then reapply a shield afterwards. It’s a hard counter for burst builds because the window where you can land a combo between their block-casting is very very small, and latency makes it nearly impossible to sneak one in.

Shields are also a soft counter for burst damage. A 30k shield will negate 30k worth of burst damage, so when used by a mechanically good player you actually need to run a DoT build to counter that. Burst builds can’t fight that at all. It wouldn’t even matter if you have 20k or 16k HP at that point. If you’re not getting through his 30k shield, then he ain’t dying.

That was my issue fighting magsorcs using that build. Sure they were at 16k HP, but they were also in a full sustain build with over 3.5k mag regen and 50k+ max magicka. They were constantly reapplying Harden + Dampen ward and I couldn’t even do a single thing to kill them lol. 25k+ shield value that can be reapplied was not fun to fight against. What sucks about fighting that build was you also took a lot of damage too. I took 8-9k crit frags and 6k crit curses, and when 21k HP was considered high it was borderline impossible to fight them as a stamsorc.

Top tier pvp players are not relevant in pvp outside of dueling. Why would you fight them open world. ?

When you find yourself outnumbered against 40k hp sorcs dealing damage which goes through everything we can have this conversation again

There is a difference between applying 2 shields to get a 30k ward and doing nothing and getting 40k hp

Yep. Barriers can be recasted. Hp needs healing. If you do 30k barriers then you have more defense than 40k hp doing nothing)