jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

definitely yes, streak is nowhere as good as mist - exact same mobility per gcd, but instead of somewhat useless stun which only application in this game is 1 second delay in enemy actions, it gives 2 most important pvp buffs, 300 attack, counters roots, counters projectiles and costs 30% less mana. i can get stun anywhere else, maybe its finally worth to include master's staff in the build. or... just switch to any other class with mist

Firstly, no they do not have the same mobility per GCD. In fact, because mist remains a semi-toggle skill, the new mist form takes over 1 GCD to use and has a slow travel time.

Secondly, Streak is the best stun in the game, with little to no competition. It is AOE, Undodgeable, Unblockable, it does a bit of damage, and remains one of the most powerful movement tools in the game. The stun is far from useless. It's one of the only things keeping the class afloat right now. Against good players, you need undodgeable and unblockable stuns or they will continue to block or dodgeroll your combos.

I urge you to try out the new mist form, it feels sluggish and bad to use - the travel speed is so slow you could probably outrun it with sprint+dodgeroll.

"Best stun in the game" would only be true if, after stunning your opponent, it didn't put you behind them, and facing away from them. You cannot reliably follow up with an attack after a streak before your opponent has a chance to break free. Unless you are super lucky and happen to land right on top of them. It often also puts you into melee range on a ranged class.

Petrify. Now that is a good stun. Also unblockable and undodgeable. And melee range on a class with massive melee damage. DK using Chains, into Petrify, then whip spam will always be better. Which makes petrify far more reliable and useful for it's purpose as a stun.

Also, AOE stun is only good as an escape mechanic or defensively. And frankly, pretty terrible offensively outside of a few niche situations. The problem with an AOE stun is, say you are only fighting 2 other players. You are focusing one of them, use streak, it stuns both players. Now both players have CC immunity. Which means, if you kill the player you were focusing, you now have to wait until CC immunity ends to stun the second player. If you fail to kill the first player, now you have 2 player attacking you that you cannot stun due to immunity. A single target stun allows a more controlled and selective fight.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

If combat prayer is supposed to be an adequate self burst heal comparable to Honor the Dead then you wouldn't mind if they decreased your class heal by 20% to give it the same base value?

Honor the Dead heals one person, Combat Prayer heals anyone within the AoE, you’d have better luck pushing for a morph of Combat Prayer that heals only yourself than nerfing Honor the Dead, an ability that has already been nerfed into oblivion…

Been playing the game long enough to remember Breath of Life? That one heal that healed three people equally, healing more based on missing health, and you didn’t have to be facing anyone?

Edit: Not to mention, Templar doesn’t have half the sustain that Sorc has, it needs a little more healing, bad example. If you wanted to drive a point home you should have referenced a Dragonknight, the only class casually doing everything best, all at once… sustaining, healing, damaging, mitigating, and mobile.

Ohh smells like Red Herrings in here. Healing anyone else other than yourself is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorc v Templar sustain is irrelevant to this discussion.
Sorc's don't need an instaheal for a goup. If you're running in a group the healer is going to be on a class meant for healing. They should have an instant self heal and not one that's only going to hit for 7-8K crits and requires a specific weapon type be equipped.
And I specifically referenced a Templar ability because that's what you play according to your tag (I wasn't advocating it be nerfed, I was using it as a reference point) , just saying if you think combat prayer is adequate run it as your only burst heal in PvP and see how that works for you.

You say that Templar is irrelevant to the discussion yet you brought it up in the first place.

I don’t even run a burst heal on my Templar because of all of the heal-over-time potential. While my magicka Templar since 2016 is now a Stamina one once again like it was during the IC patch because of how bad the class is now, and can’t afford to use even Honor the Dead.

How class balance has worked in this game prior to all of the homogenization, was that every class had its drawback, the only two base game classes still suffering there drawbacks are Sorcerer and Templar.

Sorcerer > Healing
Dragonknight > Sustain
Nightblade > Mitigation
Templar > Damage

The way this was intended to be worked around was with sets that provided your need area or through abilities outside of Class.

The problem is that now Nightblade can mitigate damage through it’s excessive healing and Dragonknight can infinite sustain through it’s class passives with one extremely broken exploit.

Our classes wouldn’t feel so broken if there weren’t ones doing what we were meant to do, better.

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

definitely yes, streak is nowhere as good as mist - exact same mobility per gcd, but instead of somewhat useless stun which only application in this game is 1 second delay in enemy actions, it gives 2 most important pvp buffs, 300 attack, counters roots, counters projectiles and costs 30% less mana. i can get stun anywhere else, maybe its finally worth to include master's staff in the build. or... just switch to any other class with mist

Firstly, no they do not have the same mobility per GCD. In fact, because mist remains a semi-toggle skill, the new mist form takes over 1 GCD to use and has a slow travel time.

Secondly, Streak is the best stun in the game, with little to no competition. It is AOE, Undodgeable, Unblockable, it does a bit of damage, and remains one of the most powerful movement tools in the game. The stun is far from useless. It's one of the only things keeping the class afloat right now. Against good players, you need undodgeable and unblockable stuns or they will continue to block or dodgeroll your combos.

I urge you to try out the new mist form, it feels sluggish and bad to use - the travel speed is so slow you could probably outrun it with sprint+dodgeroll.

"Best stun in the game" would only be true if, after stunning your opponent, it didn't put you behind them, and facing away from them. You cannot reliably follow up with an attack after a streak before your opponent has a chance to break free. Unless you are super lucky and happen to land right on top of them. It often also puts you into melee range on a ranged class.

Petrify. Now that is a good stun. Also unblockable and undodgeable. And melee range on a class with massive melee damage. DK using Chains, into Petrify, then whip spam will always be better. Which makes petrify far more reliable and useful for it's purpose as a stun.

Also, AOE stun is only good as an escape mechanic or defensively. And frankly, pretty terrible offensively outside of a few niche situations. The problem with an AOE stun is, say you are only fighting 2 other players. You are focusing one of them, use streak, it stuns both players. Now both players have CC immunity. Which means, if you kill the player you were focusing, you now have to wait until CC immunity ends to stun the second player. If you fail to kill the first player, now you have 2 player attacking you that you cannot stun due to immunity. A single target stun allows a more controlled and selective fight.

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

If combat prayer is supposed to be an adequate self burst heal comparable to Honor the Dead then you wouldn't mind if they decreased your class heal by 20% to give it the same base value?

Honor the Dead heals one person, Combat Prayer heals anyone within the AoE, you’d have better luck pushing for a morph of Combat Prayer that heals only yourself than nerfing Honor the Dead, an ability that has already been nerfed into oblivion…

Been playing the game long enough to remember Breath of Life? That one heal that healed three people equally, healing more based on missing health, and you didn’t have to be facing anyone?

Edit: Not to mention, Templar doesn’t have half the sustain that Sorc has, it needs a little more healing, bad example. If you wanted to drive a point home you should have referenced a Dragonknight, the only class casually doing everything best, all at once… sustaining, healing, damaging, mitigating, and mobile.

Ohh smells like Red Herrings in here. Healing anyone else other than yourself is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorc v Templar sustain is irrelevant to this discussion.
Sorc's don't need an instaheal for a goup. If you're running in a group the healer is going to be on a class meant for healing. They should have an instant self heal and not one that's only going to hit for 7-8K crits and requires a specific weapon type be equipped.
And I specifically referenced a Templar ability because that's what you play according to your tag (I wasn't advocating it be nerfed, I was using it as a reference point) , just saying if you think combat prayer is adequate run it as your only burst heal in PvP and see how that works for you.

You say that Templar is irrelevant to the discussion yet you brought it up in the first place.

I don’t even run a burst heal on my Templar because of all of the heal-over-time potential. While my magicka Templar since 2016 is now a Stamina one once again like it was during the IC patch because of how bad the class is now, and can’t afford to use even Honor the Dead.

How class balance has worked in this game prior to all of the homogenization, was that every class had its drawback, the only two base game classes still suffering there drawbacks are Sorcerer and Templar.

Sorcerer > Healing
Dragonknight > Sustain
Nightblade > Mitigation
Templar > Damage

The way this was intended to be worked around was with sets that provided your need area or through abilities outside of Class.

The problem is that now Nightblade can mitigate damage through it’s excessive healing and Dragonknight can infinite sustain through it’s class passives with one extremely broken exploit.

Our classes wouldn’t feel so broken if there weren’t ones doing what we were meant to do, better.

jaws343 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

RemoryAzure wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

definitely yes, streak is nowhere as good as mist - exact same mobility per gcd, but instead of somewhat useless stun which only application in this game is 1 second delay in enemy actions, it gives 2 most important pvp buffs, 300 attack, counters roots, counters projectiles and costs 30% less mana. i can get stun anywhere else, maybe its finally worth to include master's staff in the build. or... just switch to any other class with mist

Firstly, no they do not have the same mobility per GCD. In fact, because mist remains a semi-toggle skill, the new mist form takes over 1 GCD to use and has a slow travel time.

Secondly, Streak is the best stun in the game, with little to no competition. It is AOE, Undodgeable, Unblockable, it does a bit of damage, and remains one of the most powerful movement tools in the game. The stun is far from useless. It's one of the only things keeping the class afloat right now. Against good players, you need undodgeable and unblockable stuns or they will continue to block or dodgeroll your combos.

I urge you to try out the new mist form, it feels sluggish and bad to use - the travel speed is so slow you could probably outrun it with sprint+dodgeroll.

"Best stun in the game" would only be true if, after stunning your opponent, it didn't put you behind them, and facing away from them. You cannot reliably follow up with an attack after a streak before your opponent has a chance to break free. Unless you are super lucky and happen to land right on top of them. It often also puts you into melee range on a ranged class.

Petrify. Now that is a good stun. Also unblockable and undodgeable. And melee range on a class with massive melee damage. DK using Chains, into Petrify, then whip spam will always be better. Which makes petrify far more reliable and useful for it's purpose as a stun.

Also, AOE stun is only good as an escape mechanic or defensively. And frankly, pretty terrible offensively outside of a few niche situations. The problem with an AOE stun is, say you are only fighting 2 other players. You are focusing one of them, use streak, it stuns both players. Now both players have CC immunity. Which means, if you kill the player you were focusing, you now have to wait until CC immunity ends to stun the second player. If you fail to kill the first player, now you have 2 player attacking you that you cannot stun due to immunity. A single target stun allows a more controlled and selective fight.

I"m pretty sure chains would give immunity so the petrify wouldn't take.

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

For years the argument was that Sorc doesn't get to insta heal because it can run away better than everyone. Obviously the argument was flawed: NBs shadowy disguise is much more effective at running away than Sorc's streak, yet NBs have one of the best insta heals (and other very potent heals in general. Just about anything an NB does will heal them). But even if you accept that argument, with U37 everyone will have access to a streak-variant with the new mist form, even if slightly slower. So it's only fair and reasonable that Sorc is treated the same way and finally gets an insta heal, as a new skill or by making dark exchange instant. And yes I have ignored pet heals, as no-pet sorcs need to be viable. Setting aside that pets take 2 bar slots and are problematic in pvp.

As a sorc main, I'm very skeptical towards the current approach ZOS is taking towards the class. It does really feel that the Arcanist is being set up to be a much better no-pet sorc, and therefore sorcs will be made to struggle so that we're forced into the new class (don't get me wrong, I'm excited to try Arcanist, but it shouldn't be at the expense of gutting sorc). U37 seems to be heading in the direction of a token effort to appear as if sorc is being addressed, but not really fixed at all. Buffing shields is obviously not the way to go! It's just not how the game works now. Investing in max mag for the shield will gut your damage, and the shield isn't as effective defensively as insta heals. In the meantime the main sorc pain points have not been addressed:

1. Insta heals, as per above.

2. Why can't we have an in-class spammable? It says a lot that NB has swallow soul, a ranged magicka spammable that heals you A LOT on top of that, while sorc, a class with the only identity of range magic damage, doesn't have a ranged magicka spammable.

3. Serious lack of major/minor buffs/debuffs and lack of access to crit power that synergizes with surge, our main heal (ineffective as it may be in pvp).

Listen, I don't think sorc is in an awful place. I think Necro and Temp are having it worse to be honest. But I can't speak for them. Sorc also doesn't need a massive buff, because it can very easily be overbuffed and become OP (though seeing that DK just got major berserk while it's already on top makes me question the idea of something being too OP). But if sorc is going to be addressed, it would be great if the player base is being heard on what the class actually needs. Also I don't think NB needs to be nerfed. I have used it for comparison in this post to show how sorc is lacking, not to argue for an NB nerf.