If everyone will have access to a 'streak', Sorc needs access to insta heal like everyone

Ecgberht_confused

For years the argument was that Sorc doesn't get to insta heal because it can run away better than everyone. Obviously the argument was flawed: NBs shadowy disguise is much more effective at running away than Sorc's streak, yet NBs have one of the best insta heals (and other very potent heals in general. Just about anything an NB does will heal them). But even if you accept that argument, with U37 everyone will have access to a streak-variant with the new mist form, even if slightly slower. So it's only fair and reasonable that Sorc is treated the same way and finally gets an insta heal, as a new skill or by making dark exchange instant. And yes I have ignored pet heals, as no-pet sorcs need to be viable. Setting aside that pets take 2 bar slots and are problematic in pvp.

As a sorc main, I'm very skeptical towards the current approach ZOS is taking towards the class. It does really feel that the Arcanist is being set up to be a much better no-pet sorc, and therefore sorcs will be made to struggle so that we're forced into the new class (don't get me wrong, I'm excited to try Arcanist, but it shouldn't be at the expense of gutting sorc). U37 seems to be heading in the direction of a token effort to appear as if sorc is being addressed, but not really fixed at all. Buffing shields is obviously not the way to go! It's just not how the game works now. Investing in max mag for the shield will gut your damage, and the shield isn't as effective defensively as insta heals. In the meantime the main sorc pain points have not been addressed:

1. Insta heals, as per above.

2. Why can't we have an in-class spammable? It says a lot that NB has swallow soul, a ranged magicka spammable that heals you A LOT on top of that, while sorc, a class with the only identity of range magic damage, doesn't have a ranged magicka spammable.

3. Serious lack of major/minor buffs/debuffs and lack of access to crit power that synergizes with surge, our main heal (ineffective as it may be in pvp).

Listen, I don't think sorc is in an awful place. I think Necro and Temp are having it worse to be honest. But I can't speak for them. Sorc also doesn't need a massive buff, because it can very easily be overbuffed and become OP (though seeing that DK just got major berserk while it's already on top makes me question the idea of something being too OP). But if sorc is going to be addressed, it would be great if the player base is being heard on what the class actually needs. Also I don't think NB needs to be nerfed. I have used it for comparison in this post to show how sorc is lacking, not to argue for an NB nerf.

Thecompton73

Dark deal/conversion should be instant cast but return 1/3 resource instantly and 2/3 over time so it can be spammed as a heal that scales with stats but wouldn't give Sorcs too much resources too quickly.

Turtle_Bot

At this point it just feels like ZOS hates sorcs. Many sorc mains have been saying this for literal years now (ever since they gutted shields) that the class needs a proper heal and proper buff/debuff access, especially after NB got its overtuned burst heal on top of everything else along with zero nerfs to its mobility options.

Turtle_Bot

Thecompton73 wrote: »

Dark deal/conversion should be instant cast but return 1/3 resource instantly and 2/3 over time so it can be spammed as a heal that scales with stats but wouldn't give Sorcs too much resources too quickly.

My rework removed the burst sustain entirely and had it only sustain over time, that still wasn't weak enough for the forum complainers who still called it OP because of streak.

Vevvev

Mistform won't replace Streak. It doesn't stun, it requires the player to confirm a location to dash to, it has no crowd control options, and it's far slower.

Mayrael

Before you start to complain about mist form just test it. I did, in current state I'm not interested in using it, clumsy and slow, I prefer to roll dodge the distance (which also alows me to avoid unlimited amount of projectiles and melee attacks), doesn't require slot on skill bar, costs far less, is instant, with bow equipped it gives major expedition to.

Nope, new mist form sounds good on paper but its implementation is so bad that it will never replace bolt escape and it's morphs.

The_Titan_Tim

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

couriersix

The reworked mist form is a lot slower than streak and requires vampirism to use, which has it's own drawbacks. It won't be replacing streak anytime soon.

Thecompton73

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

If combat prayer is supposed to be an adequate self burst heal comparable to Honor the Dead then you wouldn't mind if they decreased your class heal by 20% to give it the same base value?

Ecgberht_confused

Mayrael wrote: »

Before you start to complain about mist form just test it. I did, in current state I'm not interested in using it, clumsy and slow, I prefer to roll dodge the distance

It seems to still be bugged and it'll be slower. But it gives a couple of buffs and most importantly triggers Strike From the Shadows (300 W/S damage, will be about 400 buffed) which is not triggered by streak. That's a massive plus. As a sorc I'll definitely consider switching to it just for this.

In anyway, I'm not complaining about the Mist Form change. I think it's a positive change for the game. What I'm trying to do is argue that it's about time we got a propoer instant heal, since the increased mobility is not unique to sorc and should not be used as an argument against having instant heal (and that this argument has always been flawed, even before the Mist Form change).

I'm also pointing out that the new sorc buffs are misguided and hoping the devs rethink them. I would love to be surprised that ZOS finally gives us a true spammable so we can save the slot used for force pulse/crushing shock. Maybe make cryst frag instant while reducing its proc damage or decreasing its proc frequency?

Sallymen

Calm down mistform is not replacing streak. Posts like these tell me that they haven't test it out.

New Mistform doesn't stun, it's not instant like streak, and to top it off it requires vamprism with all it's weaknesses and benefits

The_Titan_Tim

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

If combat prayer is supposed to be an adequate self burst heal comparable to Honor the Dead then you wouldn't mind if they decreased your class heal by 20% to give it the same base value?

Honor the Dead heals one person, Combat Prayer heals anyone within the AoE, you’d have better luck pushing for a morph of Combat Prayer that heals only yourself than nerfing Honor the Dead, an ability that has already been nerfed into oblivion…

Been playing the game long enough to remember Breath of Life? That one heal that healed three people equally, healing more based on missing health, and you didn’t have to be facing anyone?

Edit: Not to mention, Templar doesn’t have half the sustain that Sorc has, it needs a little more healing, bad example. If you wanted to drive a point home you should have referenced a Dragonknight, the only class casually doing everything best, all at once… sustaining, healing, damaging, mitigating, and mobile.

Darkstorne

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

selig_fay

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

just use both.

Turtle_Bot

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

Only reason I wouldn't is the stun, I would 100% replace BoL for the new mist form though, no cooldown on the projectile block, 300 bonus weapon/spell damage, major evasion and major expedition (or an AoE DoT + HoT), ball of lightning is horrible in comparison to the new mist form.

selig_fay wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

just use both.

I will be, mist form back bar, streak front bar.

Luede

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

Only reason I wouldn't is the stun, I would 100% replace BoL for the new mist form though, no cooldown on the projectile block, 300 bonus weapon/spell damage, major evasion and major expedition (or an AoE DoT + HoT), ball of lightning is horrible in comparison to the new mist form.

selig_fay wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

just use both.

I will be, mist form back bar, streak front bar.

you must have quite a lot of space on your bar, how do you do that?;)

RemoryAzure

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

definitely yes, streak is nowhere as good as mist - exact same mobility per gcd, but instead of somewhat useless stun which only application in this game is 1 second delay in enemy actions, it gives 2 most important pvp buffs, 300 attack, counters roots, counters projectiles and costs 30% less mana. i can get stun anywhere else, maybe its finally worth to include master's staff in the build. or... just switch to any other class with mist

Turtle_Bot

Luede wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

Only reason I wouldn't is the stun, I would 100% replace BoL for the new mist form though, no cooldown on the projectile block, 300 bonus weapon/spell damage, major evasion and major expedition (or an AoE DoT + HoT), ball of lightning is horrible in comparison to the new mist form.

selig_fay wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

As a Sorc main, ask yourself if you'd swap out Streak for Mist Form. I know I wouldn't

just use both.

I will be, mist form back bar, streak front bar.

you must have quite a lot of space on your bar, how do you do that?;)

by doing what myself and the majority of the best sorcs have been doing for years now to try and make the class work. I gave up on almost all of the class skills and using the stronger out-of-class skills alongside curse, frags (as a delayed proc similar to NB spec bow) and streak and the OP proc sets to carry the class and free up bar space for the additional utility required for modern pvp.

Dr_Con

isn't mist form just a gap closer now?

Thecompton73

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

If combat prayer is supposed to be an adequate self burst heal comparable to Honor the Dead then you wouldn't mind if they decreased your class heal by 20% to give it the same base value?

Honor the Dead heals one person, Combat Prayer heals anyone within the AoE, you’d have better luck pushing for a morph of Combat Prayer that heals only yourself than nerfing Honor the Dead, an ability that has already been nerfed into oblivion…

Been playing the game long enough to remember Breath of Life? That one heal that healed three people equally, healing more based on missing health, and you didn’t have to be facing anyone?

Edit: Not to mention, Templar doesn’t have half the sustain that Sorc has, it needs a little more healing, bad example. If you wanted to drive a point home you should have referenced a Dragonknight, the only class casually doing everything best, all at once… sustaining, healing, damaging, mitigating, and mobile.

Ohh smells like Red Herrings in here. Healing anyone else other than yourself is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorc v Templar sustain is irrelevant to this discussion.
Sorc's don't need an instaheal for a goup. If you're running in a group the healer is going to be on a class meant for healing. They should have an instant self heal and not one that's only going to hit for 7-8K crits and requires a specific weapon type be equipped.
And I specifically referenced a Templar ability because that's what you play according to your tag (I wasn't advocating it be nerfed, I was using it as a reference point) , just saying if you think combat prayer is adequate run it as your only burst heal in PvP and see how that works for you.

Brrrofski

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

Yet no other class runs it...

Funny that.

Rex-Umbra

Twilight is insta heal

RemoryAzure

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Twilight is insta heal

it isnt, it takes 2.5 sec to heal - first u summon in 1.5 sec it and then u can use heal ability for another ~1 sec gcd. it dies every 5-7 sec in every 5+ ppl fight on BGs, not even speaking that its never alive in cyro.

Turtle_Bot

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Twilight is insta heal

Twilight takes up 2 bar slots and can be killed leaving you with no healing. It's not the same as a true, reliable burst heal that every other class has access to.

ForumBully

I hope there's more focus on what Sorc needs and less worry about Mist Form, IMO all the worry is for a skill that no one will use after week one on live (PvP).

RemoryAzure

ForumBully wrote: »

I hope there's more focus on what Sorc needs and less worry about Mist Form, IMO all the worry is for a skill that no one will use after week one on live (PvP).

well, since now everyone will have a 10 times better version of streak, they can buff sorc any way they want, even overbuff like nb/dk/warden. if they do, im gonna continue playing sorc, but i will never again use streak/bol unless they add major berserk on it. and if they dont, its most likely uninstall for me.

ForumBully

RemoryAzure wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

I hope there's more focus on what Sorc needs and less worry about Mist Form, IMO all the worry is for a skill that no one will use after week one on live (PvP).

well, since now everyone will have a 10 times better version of streak, they can buff sorc any way they want, even overbuff like nb/dk/warden. if they do, im gonna continue playing sorc, but i will never again use streak/bol unless they add major berserk on it. and if they dont, its most likely uninstall for me.

But it's not better

Ecgberht_confused

ZOS logic: play however you like! Unless you're a sorc then you have to play max mag and shields, because we're not letting you heal like everyone else.

AdamLAD

Ecgberht_confused wrote: »

ZOS logic: play however you like! Unless you're a sorc then you have to play max mag and shields, because we're not letting you heal like everyone else.

Double whammy. Sheilds are Trash but so is our healing 🤣

Ecgberht_confused

AdamLAD wrote: »

Double whammy. Sheilds are Trash but so is our healing 🤣

And so would be our burst if we went the max mag route. And proc sets? Sorry these aren't for you since most scale with W/S damage.

The_Titan_Tim

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

They have one it’s called Combat Prayer.

If combat prayer is supposed to be an adequate self burst heal comparable to Honor the Dead then you wouldn't mind if they decreased your class heal by 20% to give it the same base value?

Honor the Dead heals one person, Combat Prayer heals anyone within the AoE, you’d have better luck pushing for a morph of Combat Prayer that heals only yourself than nerfing Honor the Dead, an ability that has already been nerfed into oblivion…

Been playing the game long enough to remember Breath of Life? That one heal that healed three people equally, healing more based on missing health, and you didn’t have to be facing anyone?

Edit: Not to mention, Templar doesn’t have half the sustain that Sorc has, it needs a little more healing, bad example. If you wanted to drive a point home you should have referenced a Dragonknight, the only class casually doing everything best, all at once… sustaining, healing, damaging, mitigating, and mobile.

Ohh smells like Red Herrings in here. Healing anyone else other than yourself is irrelevant to this discussion. Sorc v Templar sustain is irrelevant to this discussion.
Sorc's don't need an instaheal for a goup. If you're running in a group the healer is going to be on a class meant for healing. They should have an instant self heal and not one that's only going to hit for 7-8K crits and requires a specific weapon type be equipped.
And I specifically referenced a Templar ability because that's what you play according to your tag (I wasn't advocating it be nerfed, I was using it as a reference point) , just saying if you think combat prayer is adequate run it as your only burst heal in PvP and see how that works for you.

You say that Templar is irrelevant to the discussion yet you brought it up in the first place.

I don’t even run a burst heal on my Templar because of all of the heal-over-time potential. While my magicka Templar since 2016 is now a Stamina one once again like it was during the IC patch because of how bad the class is now, and can’t afford to use even Honor the Dead.

How class balance has worked in this game prior to all of the homogenization, was that every class had its drawback, the only two base game classes still suffering there drawbacks are Sorcerer and Templar.

Sorcerer > Healing
Dragonknight > Sustain
Nightblade > Mitigation
Templar > Damage

The way this was intended to be worked around was with sets that provided your need area or through abilities outside of Class.

The problem is that now Nightblade can mitigate damage through it’s excessive healing and Dragonknight can infinite sustain through it’s class passives with one extremely broken exploit.

Our classes wouldn’t feel so broken if there weren’t ones doing what we were meant to do, better.