SeaGtGruff wrote: »So if I understand correctly, you're saying that ZOS is saying they're going to nerf/repurpose Harmony so it can't be exploited by solo PvP players, and you're admitting that it can be exploited in PvP by solo Necronancers, but you don't think it should be nerfed because it's also useful by other players in groups in the manner it was intended.
Supposing that ZOS decides not to nerf/repurpose Harmony after all, how would you propose they stop solo Necromancers from exploiting it in PvP?
TheMightyRevan wrote: »-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty
Harmony necros doing 20k+ damage with a single synergy is bad for pvp (45k+ if you wanna count nova), your wall of text can't fool me.
btw it's not just solo players abusing it... and try not to make it out to be like it's the equivalent of 4 people using dawnbreaker at the same time to insta kill people who aren't blocking, or ult stacking... the ability to use a synergy to delete people off the field is noxious, especially when the graveyard ability they're using can proc other sets like dark convergence or they can just spam cast the graveyard or use beckoning armor while standing in the graveyard to synergize on an unlucky victim. it's abused to the point of basically being an at-will aoe spectral arrow that always has 5 on the counter and is also an AOE that can't be dodged.
and to the above poster... DC and rush of agony are separate issues from this, and assuming 12 people are putting down a 3k dot in the same spot in pvp is laughable. I'm also not sure how you managed to throw plaguebreak and vicious death into your argument too, but you did.
TheMightyRevan wrote: »-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty
there are tanks in this game btw
TechMaybeHic wrote: »It's odd to me as how hard it is to hit the synergies, that this is the route they went when it was just one thing a Necro could do.
The REALLY big hitters are DKs hitting synergies with harmony WHILE having corrosive up which made the synergy bypass armor for some reason as if that's direct damage, and gave them the tankiness to approach the clump.
The other was ball groups having enough healing and multiple forms of CC to do so
If you got killed by a solo Necro, it was a bomb and usually it was against stacks of squishy players procing the various on death explosions and the solo Necro would get a laugh but probably die and they just start rezing each other.
In fact; most of it has been the on death explosions that made it possible, and it still will be possible with the ability to pull, or even double and triple pull and clump you up with squishy friendlies from 30 meters away and bomb with vicious death, plague break, and occult overload.
Why target something so important to necros? Why are these pulls and death bombs seemingly a sacred cow to ZOS?
PvP on ESO is niche, change my mind.TheMightyRevan wrote: »-harmony was never niche, it is widely used in pvp, by many people
Just talk for yourself.TheMightyRevan wrote: »-more recovery focused... why? sustain hasnt been an issue in pve or pvp in a long time, so its just pointless to change it to that
Hello? Tanks?TheMightyRevan wrote: »-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty
SeaGtGruff wrote: »So if I understand correctly, you're saying that ZOS is saying they're going to nerf/repurpose Harmony so it can't be exploited by solo PvP players, and you're admitting that it can be exploited in PvP by solo Necronancers, but you don't think it should be nerfed because it's also useful by other players in groups in the manner it was intended.
Supposing that ZOS decides not to nerf/repurpose Harmony after all, how would you propose they stop solo Necromancers from exploiting it in PvP?
VaranisArano wrote: »SeaGtGruff wrote: »So if I understand correctly, you're saying that ZOS is saying they're going to nerf/repurpose Harmony so it can't be exploited by solo PvP players, and you're admitting that it can be exploited in PvP by solo Necronancers, but you don't think it should be nerfed because it's also useful by other players in groups in the manner it was intended.
Supposing that ZOS decides not to nerf/repurpose Harmony after all, how would you propose they stop solo Necromancers from exploiting it in PvP?
In my case, it's that Harmony is used by ball groups to bomb zergs too, so I'd understand if that was why ZOS was nerfing it.
But I don't understand why ZOS stated they're nerfing it because of solo play when, IMO, solo players bombing large groups is a pretty healthy part of Cyrodiil's balance since large groups already have the advantage of numbers and organized groups have the advantage of organization. Maybe I'm weird, but I'm a ball group-style player who admires the bombers who pull it off successfully. They keep us on our toes and that's a good thing.
Now, ZOS seems to not want solo necro harmony bombers to be a thing (now, anyways, since its been a thing for a long time), but as someone who was far more likely to be on the receiving end of their harmony bombs, I personally don't see it as an exploit or even an unbalanced build in the wider context of Cyrodiil.
I could totally understand it if ZOS said they didn't like harmony bombing in general, because organized large and small scale groups do it to. We've had Vicious Death and Eye of the Storm nerfs for that reason in the past. But that's not who they pointed to.
Thecompton73 wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »SeaGtGruff wrote: »So if I understand correctly, you're saying that ZOS is saying they're going to nerf/repurpose Harmony so it can't be exploited by solo PvP players, and you're admitting that it can be exploited in PvP by solo Necronancers, but you don't think it should be nerfed because it's also useful by other players in groups in the manner it was intended.
Supposing that ZOS decides not to nerf/repurpose Harmony after all, how would you propose they stop solo Necromancers from exploiting it in PvP?
In my case, it's that Harmony is used by ball groups to bomb zergs too, so I'd understand if that was why ZOS was nerfing it.
But I don't understand why ZOS stated they're nerfing it because of solo play when, IMO, solo players bombing large groups is a pretty healthy part of Cyrodiil's balance since large groups already have the advantage of numbers and organized groups have the advantage of organization. Maybe I'm weird, but I'm a ball group-style player who admires the bombers who pull it off successfully. They keep us on our toes and that's a good thing.
Now, ZOS seems to not want solo necro harmony bombers to be a thing (now, anyways, since its been a thing for a long time), but as someone who was far more likely to be on the receiving end of their harmony bombs, I personally don't see it as an exploit or even an unbalanced build in the wider context of Cyrodiil.
I could totally understand it if ZOS said they didn't like harmony bombing in general, because organized large and small scale groups do it to. We've had Vicious Death and Eye of the Storm nerfs for that reason in the past. But that's not who they pointed to.
Is Harmony really used much for ballgroups? In my experience 99% of the time I've gotten killed by one it's because they all popped Ultimates and I couldn't get out of their path because I got rooted, stunned or pulled in and the combo of the overlapping AOE's does more DPS in one second than I have in total health. I've always been under the impression they don't need it to do what they do.
-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty
Elendir2am wrote: »We (small-scale) used harmony bombing for taking down ball-groups. What,I believe, was good for PvP.
I think, that they want preserve harmony for small-scale in theirs posts.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »It's odd to me as how hard it is to hit the synergies, that this is the route they went when it was just one thing a Necro could do.
The REALLY big hitters are DKs hitting synergies with harmony WHILE having corrosive up which made the synergy bypass armor for some reason as if that's direct damage, and gave them the tankiness to approach the clump.
The other was ball groups having enough healing and multiple forms of CC to do so
If you got killed by a solo Necro, it was a bomb and usually it was against stacks of squishy players procing the various on death explosions and the solo Necro would get a laugh but probably die and they just start rezing each other.
In fact; most of it has been the on death explosions that made it possible, and it still will be possible with the ability to pull, or even double and triple pull and clump you up with squishy friendlies from 30 meters away and bomb with vicious death, plague break, and occult overload.
Why target something so important to necros? Why are these pulls and death bombs seemingly a sacred cow to ZOS?
SeaGtGruff wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »It's odd to me as how hard it is to hit the synergies, that this is the route they went when it was just one thing a Necro could do.
The REALLY big hitters are DKs hitting synergies with harmony WHILE having corrosive up which made the synergy bypass armor for some reason as if that's direct damage, and gave them the tankiness to approach the clump.
The other was ball groups having enough healing and multiple forms of CC to do so
If you got killed by a solo Necro, it was a bomb and usually it was against stacks of squishy players procing the various on death explosions and the solo Necro would get a laugh but probably die and they just start rezing each other.
In fact; most of it has been the on death explosions that made it possible, and it still will be possible with the ability to pull, or even double and triple pull and clump you up with squishy friendlies from 30 meters away and bomb with vicious death, plague break, and occult overload.
Why target something so important to necros? Why are these pulls and death bombs seemingly a sacred cow to ZOS?
Well, to be perfectly fair to ZOS, I didn't see anything in the notes from ZOS which specifically mentioned Necromancers (or any other particular class) in connection with this planned change to Harmony. As far as I can tell, the OP of this thread is where the reference to Necromancers originated.
TechMaybeHic wrote: »SeaGtGruff wrote: »TechMaybeHic wrote: »It's odd to me as how hard it is to hit the synergies, that this is the route they went when it was just one thing a Necro could do.
The REALLY big hitters are DKs hitting synergies with harmony WHILE having corrosive up which made the synergy bypass armor for some reason as if that's direct damage, and gave them the tankiness to approach the clump.
The other was ball groups having enough healing and multiple forms of CC to do so
If you got killed by a solo Necro, it was a bomb and usually it was against stacks of squishy players procing the various on death explosions and the solo Necro would get a laugh but probably die and they just start rezing each other.
In fact; most of it has been the on death explosions that made it possible, and it still will be possible with the ability to pull, or even double and triple pull and clump you up with squishy friendlies from 30 meters away and bomb with vicious death, plague break, and occult overload.
Why target something so important to necros? Why are these pulls and death bombs seemingly a sacred cow to ZOS?
Well, to be perfectly fair to ZOS, I didn't see anything in the notes from ZOS which specifically mentioned Necromancers (or any other particular class) in connection with this planned change to Harmony. As far as I can tell, the OP of this thread is where the reference to Necromancers originated.
It's the ONLY class that can use harmony solo.
It beats infused with a tri cost reduction glyph, at 4 or more synergies per min. So a good change for pve tanks for some encounters, does that make the change good? I would'nt really say that tanks have been calling out for more sustain. Tanks already have too many sets so not everyone is going to pick it up I think.
FantasticFreddie wrote: »It beats infused with a tri cost reduction glyph, at 4 or more synergies per min. So a good change for pve tanks for some encounters, does that make the change good? I would'nt really say that tanks have been calling out for more sustain. Tanks already have too many sets so not everyone is going to pick it up I think.
Typically you would only use harmony in very niche cases where you want the burst heal from the blood altar synergy. 900 extra resources is pitiful compared to getting healed to full during baneful.
I can't imagine any tanks are going to swap unless it gets significantly buffed, more like 2000 each per synergy, otherwise infused glyphs will just be better.
LadyLavina wrote: »Op, I understand, really I do,
I'm sure it did see use by PvP'ers in general,
but it was predominantly used by bombers to destroy groups.
The nerf is for the greater good lol.
FantasticFreddie wrote: »It beats infused with a tri cost reduction glyph, at 4 or more synergies per min. So a good change for pve tanks for some encounters, does that make the change good? I would'nt really say that tanks have been calling out for more sustain. Tanks already have too many sets so not everyone is going to pick it up I think.
Typically you would only use harmony in very niche cases where you want the burst heal from the blood altar synergy. 900 extra resources is pitiful compared to getting healed to full during baneful.
I can't imagine any tanks are going to swap unless it gets significantly buffed, more like 2000 each per synergy, otherwise infused glyphs will just be better.
I made a calculator for it, it's linked in the most recent nefasQs video as I can't link it here. It does beat infused in resource gain at 4 or more synergies.
TheMightyRevan wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »It beats infused with a tri cost reduction glyph, at 4 or more synergies per min. So a good change for pve tanks for some encounters, does that make the change good? I would'nt really say that tanks have been calling out for more sustain. Tanks already have too many sets so not everyone is going to pick it up I think.
Typically you would only use harmony in very niche cases where you want the burst heal from the blood altar synergy. 900 extra resources is pitiful compared to getting healed to full during baneful.
I can't imagine any tanks are going to swap unless it gets significantly buffed, more like 2000 each per synergy, otherwise infused glyphs will just be better.
I made a calculator for it, it's linked in the most recent nefasQs video as I can't link it here. It does beat infused in resource gain at 4 or more synergies.
that doesnt seem worth it then in my view, considering orb/shards will have the same ressource return from the new harmony trait as it does from the current.
It just completely makes this trait obsolete for pvp, noones gonna use it anymore. it will turn into a niche thing only. So basically the opposite of what they seemingly intended.
Once again i am really doubting, that ZOS actually know whats going on in the game. Random changes for the wrong reasons.
TheMightyRevan wrote: »FantasticFreddie wrote: »It beats infused with a tri cost reduction glyph, at 4 or more synergies per min. So a good change for pve tanks for some encounters, does that make the change good? I would'nt really say that tanks have been calling out for more sustain. Tanks already have too many sets so not everyone is going to pick it up I think.
Typically you would only use harmony in very niche cases where you want the burst heal from the blood altar synergy. 900 extra resources is pitiful compared to getting healed to full during baneful.
I can't imagine any tanks are going to swap unless it gets significantly buffed, more like 2000 each per synergy, otherwise infused glyphs will just be better.
I made a calculator for it, it's linked in the most recent nefasQs video as I can't link it here. It does beat infused in resource gain at 4 or more synergies.
that doesnt seem worth it then in my view, considering orb/shards will have the same ressource return from the new harmony trait as it does from the current.
It just completely makes this trait obsolete for pvp, noones gonna use it anymore. it will turn into a niche thing only. So basically the opposite of what they seemingly intended.
Once again i am really doubting, that ZOS actually know whats going on in the game. Random changes for the wrong reasons.
You always only have PvP in mind. There are way, WAY more people playing PvE and a lot of tanks, myself included, will most likely switch to it.
TheMightyRevan wrote: »TheMightyRevan wrote: »-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty
there are tanks in this game btw
you do realise, that you already get sustain from synergies through the undaunted passives + harmony already gives you 20% more ressources and healing from synergies. thats all you need as a tank btw. its just a flat nerf. again
Also i didnt really try to go too in depth about it. i only made this thread to highlight the developer comment and show how everything in there is wrong, [snip]