Everything Wrong with Harmony Developer Comment

WaywardArgonian

OP is correct. The explanation of the developers, as laid out in their comment, does not correspond with the proposed change.

The only solo class that currently benefits from Harmony is Necromancer, as they can use their own Grave Robber synergy. Grave Robber is already getting a 47% damage nerf during this same patch.

Harmony is most often used by organized groups (smallscales and ballgroups) to increase their burst damage. This fact alone will cause many to celebrate the nerf, but also realize that synergies are the most effective way to counter those groups (other than maybe sieges). But regardless of where you stand, this discussion is not relevant, because the developer comment did not say "we are getting rid of Harmony because we think synergies are overpowered in PVP." The point here is that Harmony is not currently a niche trait but the proposed change will likely result in it being used less across the board.

TechMaybeHic

How the heck did my post get here? Lol

Tommy_The_Gun

For a very long time I have had this thing in mind why ZOS is not doing anything to tone down "ball group" playstyle.

You see, every playstyle in PvP that was overperforming in the past and was considered toxic & annoying to deal with was nerfed.
- Snipe one shot solo builds ? Yep. Bow is a joke right now.
- Bombing ? Yep. It was quite easy to pull of, but now it is quite a challenge & successful "bomb" happens rarely, pretty much only during PvP events.
- Shield stacking ? Yep. It was also gutted and was especially painful for sorc class.
- Health recovery based builds ? Also gutted.

I could go on & on about it, but my point is - every possibility nerf to everything & every playstyle happend... except for "ball group" playstyle. The only "nerf" that ever happened was the reduction of the group size, but it was more like a consequence of population limit change, rather than a "nerf".

Every balance change that is happening is not accidental & ZOS devs knows exactly what they are doing. They have the tools. They could have tone down "ball groups" years ago. It is not a rocket science. We have battle spirit & they could have reduced the effectiveness of grouped players (the larger the group the bigger the debuff to various things). But they didn't.

TLDR:
Looking at the balance changes history, various things that were only making ball group stronger & stronger over the years and the recent dev comment, it makes me think that... they are the "target pvp audience". Ball groups. Yep. It seems like this is the case. ZOS is making Cyrodiil for them. At least this is the only logical conclusion.

Brrrofski

As someone who only plays PvP these days, I never saw necro bombers as an issue.

And even if they are, it's dark convergence which makes them so.

Harmony isn't what made them brutal, it's the pull from DC.

TheMightyRevan

jm42 wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty

there are tanks in this game btw

you do realise, that you already get sustain from synergies through the undaunted passives + harmony already gives you 20% more ressources and healing from synergies. thats all you need as a tank btw. its just a flat nerf. again

Also i didnt really try to go too in depth about it. i only made this thread to highlight the developer comment and show how everything in there is wrong, [snip]

I can see that you never tanked yourself or tanked but not the hardest pve content where main tank can just survive alone in many cases and don't have synergies as much as needed

indeed i have tanked hard pve content and in my experience tank sustain is way more about reading mechanics and doing heavy attacks/balance when you can.

Also i'm not sure what you mean, if you dont get enough synergies whats the point in harmony then

[edited to remove quote]

sharquez

Gosh its been so long since I've been genuinely angry about an upcoming change. I can usually roll with the punches on nerfs here and there. But this one is a direct gut punch to one of my favorite playstyles.

Every time I see this change brought up I want to make another post screaming WHY? We are we deleting another playstyle from the game? Why do I keep coming back just to get knocked down again?

A friends list and guilds of 100s of players gone, because of wild swings like this. Why am I still here? Just to suffer?

And I'm still tempted to jump in on Necrom in the hopes that Arcanist will give me something to look forward to.

I got the Stockholm syndrome so bad. I should throw my computer in the dumpster and be done with it... but I wont.

VaranisArano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

For a very long time I have had this thing in mind why ZOS is not doing anything to tone down "ball group" playstyle.

You see, every playstyle in PvP that was overperforming in the past and was considered toxic & annoying to deal with was nerfed.
- Snipe one shot solo builds ? Yep. Bow is a joke right now.
- Bombing ? Yep. It was quite easy to pull of, but now it is quite a challenge & successful "bomb" happens rarely, pretty much only during PvP events.
- Shield stacking ? Yep. It was also gutted and was especially painful for sorc class.
- Health recovery based builds ? Also gutted.

I could go on & on about it, but my point is - every possibility nerf to everything & every playstyle happend... except for "ball group" playstyle. The only "nerf" that ever happened was the reduction of the group size, but it was more like a consequence of population limit change, rather than a "nerf".

Every balance change that is happening is not accidental & ZOS devs knows exactly what they are doing. They have the tools. They could have tone down "ball groups" years ago. It is not a rocket science. We have battle spirit & they could have reduced the effectiveness of grouped players (the larger the group the bigger the debuff to various things). But they didn't.

TLDR:
Looking at the balance changes history, various things that were only making ball group stronger & stronger over the years and the recent dev comment, it makes me think that... they are the "target pvp audience". Ball groups. Yep. It seems like this is the case. ZOS is making Cyrodiil for them. At least this is the only logical conclusion.

Cyrodiil was always for large scale, organized groups. Originally, it's groupfinder used to say "groups of 8-24 players." The servers can't live up to that anymore, but it's no surprise that in an AvAvA zone designed for zerging with hundreds of players on screen, tightly organized groups are king. Yeah, you could always do solo and small scale play, but that's not what the Alliance War is purpose-built for, you know?

It's not really true that ZOS hasn't tried to nerf them it just hasn't worked, because it's like trying to nerf the top tier Trials players in PVP. Look at how that's working out for ZOS. They theory craft, adapt to the nerfs, and take advantage of the new buffs. Ball groups do the same thing, and the end result is nothing ZOS has tried works.

Most recently, Plaguebreak was supposed to be a counter to ball groups, from the Dev comments. What ZOS failed to understand (and its the reason they've failed to substantively nerf ball groups) is that an large organized group is going to use anything much better than an unorganized or smaller group. And thus while Plaguebreak can be used effectively against ballgroups, it's also used by those ballgroups against everyone else in combo with all their other advantages.

I could've told them that (and did) because I remember when they nerfed Vicious Death and Eye of the Storm because of ball groups only for it not to work because ball group theorycrafters simply moved to the next tactic or continued to get them on target better than anyone else.


(Blanket nerfs because of group size only reinforced ball group dominance over similarly sized, but less organized PUGs. Voice comms, tactics, and organized builds are one hell of an advantage that ZOS can't nerf.)

Edited: I'd argue that PUGs and casual zerg players are more likely to be ZOS' target audience because there's a lot more of them than either hard-core dedicated solo, small scale, or ball group players. Personally, I don't think ball groups needed any help from getting solo harmony bombers nerfed, but I could see ZOS deciding that Harmony bomber builds aren't ideal for casual play by PUGs and zergs. Incidentally, those are the players least likely to use Harmony themselves, so they'll get the most benefit and least harm from the change.

LadyLavina

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

LadyLavina wrote: »

Op, I understand, really I do,

I'm sure it did see use by PvP'ers in general,

but it was predominantly used by bombers to destroy groups.

The nerf is for the greater good lol.

No, no it really isn't "predominantly used by bombers"
The most common bomb is, as far as I can tell, the good old fashioned nightblade bomber.
Those are the ones that still get me occasionally.

I see necro bombs some, but there is a telegraph and a delay to a necro bomb that you simply do not have with an experienced bomb blade. They are much more avoidable.

I'm convinced people who think it's an ez insta win button have no raid awareness.

Fair enough friend, I suppose I shouldn't have stated that as fact since it's purely my own experiences,

I'm a pvp tank, so I am not in tune with pvp raids most of the time since they let me do whatever since I don't matter.

I apologize and appreciate the perspective you have enlightened me to

Kisakee

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty

there are tanks in this game btw

you do realise, that you already get sustain from synergies through the undaunted passives + harmony already gives you 20% more ressources and healing from synergies. thats all you need as a tank btw. its just a flat nerf. again

You're getting 4% of your max stats as ressource gain from synergies with the Undaunted passive. As those stats are different for everyone you can't say that it's going to be a nerf if you don't know the exact numbers. Also the new Harmony will provide healing even if it's a damage skill you synergize so that's a buff and you're somewhat able to trigger it on demand which can be a life saver.

Plus some classes and / or builds are way more dependent on ouside sustain than others so generalizing isn't going to work.

TheMightyRevan

Kisakee wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty

there are tanks in this game btw

you do realise, that you already get sustain from synergies through the undaunted passives + harmony already gives you 20% more ressources and healing from synergies. thats all you need as a tank btw. its just a flat nerf. again

You're getting 4% of your max stats as ressource gain from synergies with the Undaunted passive. As those stats are different for everyone you can't say that it's going to be a nerf if you don't know the exact numbers. Also the new Harmony will provide healing even if it's a damage skill you synergize so that's a buff and you're somewhat able to trigger it on demand which can be a life saver.

Plus some classes and / or builds are way more dependent on ouside sustain than others so generalizing isn't going to work.

for orb/shards it will be the same ressource return, and those are the most important/reliable synergies in pve. So i dont see point in it. And building on synergies for a lifesaver seems pretty risky to me aswell. and if you consider synergies like purify, the new harmony will give you less healing for that than the current does.

Also generalizing it works, coz it will definetely ruin the trait for pvp no matter the class full stop

katorga

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

TheMightyRevan wrote: »

-has impact in pve... again noone in pve is gonna use harmony because getting some more sustain from synergies is utterly underwhelming compared to just have more damage from bloodthirsty

there are tanks in this game btw

you do realise, that you already get sustain from synergies through the undaunted passives + harmony already gives you 20% more ressources and healing from synergies. thats all you need as a tank btw. its just a flat nerf. again

You're getting 4% of your max stats as ressource gain from synergies with the Undaunted passive. As those stats are different for everyone you can't say that it's going to be a nerf if you don't know the exact numbers. Also the new Harmony will provide healing even if it's a damage skill you synergize so that's a buff and you're somewhat able to trigger it on demand which can be a life saver.

Plus some classes and / or builds are way more dependent on ouside sustain than others so generalizing isn't going to work.

for orb/shards it will be the same ressource return, and those are the most important/reliable synergies in pve. So i dont see point in it. And building on synergies for a lifesaver seems pretty risky to me aswell. and if you consider synergies like purify, the new harmony will give you less healing for that than the current does.

Also generalizing it works, coz it will definetely ruin the trait for pvp no matter the class full stop

No one will ever, ever, use Harmony even in PVE. Even Training has more value.

Meanwhile, do nothing concerning solo NB bombing, natch...

Iriidius

VaranisArano wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

For a very long time I have had this thing in mind why ZOS is not doing anything to tone down "ball group" playstyle.

You see, every playstyle in PvP that was overperforming in the past and was considered toxic & annoying to deal with was nerfed.
- Snipe one shot solo builds ? Yep. Bow is a joke right now.
- Bombing ? Yep. It was quite easy to pull of, but now it is quite a challenge & successful "bomb" happens rarely, pretty much only during PvP events.
- Shield stacking ? Yep. It was also gutted and was especially painful for sorc class.
- Health recovery based builds ? Also gutted.

I could go on & on about it, but my point is - every possibility nerf to everything & every playstyle happend... except for "ball group" playstyle. The only "nerf" that ever happened was the reduction of the group size, but it was more like a consequence of population limit change, rather than a "nerf".

Every balance change that is happening is not accidental & ZOS devs knows exactly what they are doing. They have the tools. They could have tone down "ball groups" years ago. It is not a rocket science. We have battle spirit & they could have reduced the effectiveness of grouped players (the larger the group the bigger the debuff to various things). But they didn't.

TLDR:
Looking at the balance changes history, various things that were only making ball group stronger & stronger over the years and the recent dev comment, it makes me think that... they are the "target pvp audience". Ball groups. Yep. It seems like this is the case. ZOS is making Cyrodiil for them. At least this is the only logical conclusion.

Cyrodiil was always for large scale, organized groups. Originally, it's groupfinder used to say "groups of 8-24 players." The servers can't live up to that anymore, but it's no surprise that in an AvAvA zone designed for zerging with hundreds of players on screen, tightly organized groups are king. Yeah, you could always do solo and small scale play, but that's not what the Alliance War is purpose-built for, you know?

It's not really true that ZOS hasn't tried to nerf them it just hasn't worked, because it's like trying to nerf the top tier Trials players in PVP. Look at how that's working out for ZOS. They theory craft, adapt to the nerfs, and take advantage of the new buffs. Ball groups do the same thing, and the end result is nothing ZOS has tried works.

Most recently, Plaguebreak was supposed to be a counter to ball groups, from the Dev comments. What ZOS failed to understand (and its the reason they've failed to substantively nerf ball groups) is that an large organized group is going to use anything much better than an unorganized or smaller group. And thus while Plaguebreak can be used effectively against ballgroups, it's also used by those ballgroups against everyone else in combo with all their other advantages.

I could've told them that (and did) because I remember when they nerfed Vicious Death and Eye of the Storm because of ball groups only for it not to work because ball group theorycrafters simply moved to the next tactic or continued to get them on target better than anyone else.


(Blanket nerfs because of group size only reinforced ball group dominance over similarly sized, but less organized PUGs. Voice comms, tactics, and organized builds are one hell of an advantage that ZOS can't nerf.)

Edited: I'd argue that PUGs and casual zerg players are more likely to be ZOS' target audience because there's a lot more of them than either hard-core dedicated solo, small scale, or ball group players. Personally, I don't think ball groups needed any help from getting solo harmony bombers nerfed, but I could see ZOS deciding that Harmony bomber builds aren't ideal for casual play by PUGs and zergs. Incidentally, those are the players least likely to use Harmony themselves, so they'll get the most benefit and least harm from the change.

Maybe Cyrodiil was originally designed for 8-24 man groups, but solo players and smallscales always were an important part of Cyrodiils Population and reduction of population made forming large groups harder. Groups created by group finder are PuGs and not organized groups.
Organized groups usually run only during their raid times, dont invite randoms, expect you to wear group builds, always run as a stack, be regular active and often they disband. PuGs are more available but got rare after reduction of group size to 12. And Small scales also usually only invite Players they know. If Cyrodiil is only for groups, then every player must have the option to join a group anytime.
Often it seems like if your friends/guilds are not in Cyrodiil, then its better you are not in Cyrodiil too, because alone . If your faction gets outnumbered and allies leave, better leave too, so the faction is outnumbered even more and soon completely empty.
I dont think solo play should be made more difficult when many players dont even have the option to join a group. If more players leave Eso PvP, there wont be enaugh players left on all factions to form groups, so only Solo Players will remain. In off hours and lesser populated campaigns there usually are no big groups and if one alliance has an organized group they take the whole map because other alliances have no organized groups or enaugh randoms to stop them.
In ZoS coment they statet that Harmony was changed because it was abused by Solo Necro Bomber to bomb Large groups and was intended to be used by Trial/Ball/Compgroups(Teamwork).
Somehow it is a problem if a Solo Necro Harmony Bomber uses his own graveyard Synergy but totally fine if a group player uses Graveyard, Nova, shackle, Talons, Stormatro, Soultheter and all unddaunted Synergys with harmony. The players providing synergys can also be full tanks, Synergys still do high dmg if used by harmony dd. The same nerfed necro bombers can also use all this synergys by other players and get much more dmg but then its ok because it is teamwork while solo its a problem.