Destai wrote: »

Shark Teeth's Grotto is my least favorite in the entire game. Those traps, ugh.

I enjoy Shark's Teeth Grotto because it's an interesting place to explore, with all those tunnels, stairs, bridges, etc.-- a vertical as well as horizontal maze.

But yeah, those traps are painful. I made sure to crouch at the appropriate spots so I could disable the traps and tripwires, but I forgot about some of them or got too close before trying to disarm them, and boom! They do a good bit of damage.

TaSheen wrote: »

That sort of content has no attraction for me. I never play "bad girls", evil of any sort, necromancers. That's all just plain repugnant to me. Actually, I don't play that sort of content in any game I've ever played since I started CRPGs in the mid 80s. It's not a fun or interesting style of play for me.

Oblivion's thieves guild storyline wasn't that evil, actually. It often felt more like a Robin Hood story, including returning taxes to the poor and getting rid of a zealous watch captain by moving him to a different town. A very different take compared to the quests in Skyrim and now in ESO. I found it interesting. I can understand though that to some people this has no appeal at all.

Destai wrote: »

Storywise, Thieves Guild for sure. I think it's honestly one of the best stories in ESO. All of the characters are really human

That's interesting, considering most weren't human

TaSheen wrote: »

In Skyrim I ignore the whole TG thing. And I destroy the DB.

I think it was a great design choice that it was possible to do that and to even have an extra quest about that (even if it was rather short). That was how it was in my first playthrough of Skyrim, by the way. It was so clear to me that the character I played would not accept being kidnapped and letting the culprit get away with that, no matter what.

TaSheen wrote: »

Anyway, I appreciate your interest, and your ability to not trash me for my views.

I think everyone should play the way they want. No one has the right to interfere with other persons' personal views and decisions as long as they do no harm (which clearly isn't the case when it comes to different playstyles in a game).

Just as Emil Pagliarulo, a designer of the dark brotherhood in the daggerfall series, pointed out: Because it is a straight forward inversion of the christian belief (Nightmother, Listener, Speaker, Dark Sacrament) which just GOES FOR IT.

Because in the age of political correctness it is one of the few last iconic bastions of creative freedom of art that is not oppressed by cancel culture. And not like Hitman games, or Assassins Creed etc you are "the good guy/gal" where 99% of the targets are morally justified, because they did something really evil (criminal boss, terrorist, abuser, etc, etc).

No, in The Eldar Scrolls series, you are granted the freedom to roleplay something really evil.



You play a nasty murderer that kills for money. Escapism in the purest form.

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

In Skyrim I ignore the whole TG thing. And I destroy the DB.

I think it was a great design choice that it was possible to do that and to even have an extra quest about that (even if it was rather short). That was how it was in my first playthrough of Skyrim, by the way. It was so clear to me that the character I played would not accept being kidnapped and letting the culprit get away with that, no matter what.

TaSheen wrote: »

Anyway, I appreciate your interest, and your ability to not trash me for my views.

I think everyone should play the way they want. No one has the right to interfere with other persons' personal views and decisions as long as they do no harm (which clearly isn't the case when it comes to different playstyles in a game).

The one thing that's a bit disappointing about me not feeling like playing the DB is how much I really LOVE Elam Drals' patented version of snark (which I didn't know about before Blackwood and which is much like my own). I do wish we could have him as a house guest, and I haven't previously had much use for the house guests!

Syldras wrote: »

In addition to my last comment: The DB is not about money, it's clearly religious/cultist/spiritual in origin. And I don't see it as a sole evil inversion either. It clearly has references to the real-world historical Thuggee who are considered to have been a sect murdering in the name of Kali:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
There's even a sculpture somewhere in TES4 Oblivion that looked like a typical Kali depiction. And Sithis in ESO reminds of one type of iconography for Chamunda, who is also closely related to Kali. If you look closely and compare:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-crown_store-Sithis_the_Dread_Father.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chamunda_at_Odisha_State_Museum,_Bhubaneswar,_Odisha,_India.jpg
The flaming halo (that is interpreted more like feathers in ESO), the severed head and cups they're holding, the necklace made from skulls, even the posture and the whole emaciated appearance. So there you see the real-world reference.

TaSheen wrote: »

The one thing that's a bit disappointing about me not feeling like playing the DB is how much I really LOVE Elam Drals' patented version of snark (which I didn't know about before Blackwood and which is much like my own). I do wish we could have him as a house guest, and I haven't previously had much use for the house guests!

He's quite unique. I wish there would be more interesting characters who seem truly individual. Many, especially the "fan favorites", are just either shining heroes or the "flirty scoundrel" type... Which isn't exactly what I find appealing.

Huh. You know, I had never thought to consider the DB as derivative from Thuggee - and yes, I've known about Thuggee for many years due to my inability to avoid reading everything that comes my way no matter how obscure.

I do remember that sculpture - though it's been years since I played MW at all, so I don't know now where I saw it. Now, Chamunda - I remember the name, but wouldn't have realized it as related to Kali, but I never read very deeply into the literature. My mother was the one who was very much involved in India's history and religions/mythologies (I was a frustrated Egyptologist myself.... specifically interested in the Amarna period).

As for Elam - he's the single most interesting character I've ever run across in ESO - or any TES game! And yes - just spare me from flirtatious anything....

Oh that BED! My gosh.... I've never been to that museum, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my forays through the Smithsonian's various venues over the years! In fact, I'm one of those that when presented with a museum, walk through slowly, reading EVERYTHING even if it's not something in my "fields" (as if I have them)!

The Peacock Room.... Yeah, that was my very first introduction to the Smithsonian's riches. Just.... wow. And when I was able to see Fallingwater.... I cried. I've been very lucky to have the ability to go places, see things, stand in front of beauty and cry..... *sniffle* I have the memories (my mind is pretty sharp still) and yes, I'd love to go back to see them all again - but husband's not in really good shape, so travel is not a good idea. I do have the memories.... thankfully!

Flirty stuff really annoys me in games. It's to do with my early working life, and that's all I'm going to say about it. As for your list there - Sotha, Remnus, Neramo - they're great. Not so thrilled with the Vanos couple, and really, have no use at all for Fennorian. Sorry, allergic to vampires (and werewolves).

TaSheen wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

No opinion. I don't play that content in any TES game.

I respect that! but why?

That sort of content has no attraction for me. I never play "bad girls", evil of any sort, necromancers. That's all just plain repugnant to me. Actually, I don't play that sort of content in any game I've ever played since I started CRPGs in the mid 80s. It's not a fun or interesting style of play for me.

hhahaah meanwhile there's me, i'm a good necromancer! tottaly! I'm hero of daggerfall after all! and you bet i'm saving the world more times

but yeah i have been trying to be more bad on eso, but i can't i always do the good choices. sometimes i spend several mins deciding what choice to do, like with that spider daedra on alik'r desert.

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh that BED! My gosh.... I've never been to that museum, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my forays through the Smithsonian's various venues over the years! In fact, I'm one of those that when presented with a museum, walk through slowly, reading EVERYTHING even if it's not something in my "fields" (as if I have them)!]

I haven't travelled outside Europe for many years now (can't travel by plane anymore, eardrum issues), but at least I've seen many photos and read many books about museums and historical places abroad, and I'm so happy there's the internet nowadays that is basically a source of endless information (if only everyone used it reasonably!). Of course seeing things in person is still better, but reading about it is a kind of surrogate at least. And I can still travel within Europe, which isn't bad either.

TaSheen wrote: »

As for your list there - Sotha, Remnus, Neramo - they're great. Not so thrilled with the Vanos couple, and really, have no use at all for Fennorian. Sorry, allergic to vampires (and werewolves).

I have a thing for traditional vampire novels. Not only Bram Stoker's Dracula, also Carmilla by Sheridan Le Fanu, or John Polidori's The Vampyre (and many others). Modern stories - normally not so much. Actually I don't even like the modern "good vampire" trope that much. But I personally still like Fennorian somehow, probably because he's an exception to all those flirty, braggy, adventurer npcs and seems calmer and more thoughtful.

As for "modern vampires" - I highly recommend April White's Immortal Descendents book series. This is the one vampire situation that actually makes sense to me, so because it makes sense, I'm good with the premise. Now, fair warning: it's written from the POV of a 17 year old female. While that works for me, it might not work at all for others.

I like killing better than robbing. More fun for me.

TaSheen wrote: »

As for "modern vampires" - I highly recommend April White's Immortal Descendents book series. This is the one vampire situation that actually makes sense to me, so because it makes sense, I'm good with the premise. Now, fair warning: it's written from the POV of a 17 year old female. While that works for me, it might not work at all for others.

Well, for me it really depends on how it's written (the protagonist of the traditional story Carmilla is also a late teen or early adult woman). I'll have a look, thanks!

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

The Dark Brotherhood got two big inspirations, one being the Catholic church, but of course twisted, and the Unification or Death. Also known as the Black Hand, a secret assassin-y (allegedly) military society from early 20th century Serbia. Albeit they likely took inspiration from more places, which is quite common with Elder Scrolls. Grab a bit from here and there and smash together.

@NotaDaedraWorshipper I recognize a few Catholic terms in the Dark Brotherhood lore, of course, but I don't really have much knowledge about that. It's not really present in my family (at least for the last 100 years). Generally, TES lore is all a huge mishmash, I agree. Which leads to another point:

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I also share your fascination, or interest, in finding clear real-world inspiration for things in game, especially furniture of course, and instantly recognised the moon beds with joy. Such beautiful craftsmanship, and interesting choice in style for the Great Houses dunmer.

Morrowind is an especially interesting example mixing different East and South Asian and Mesopotamian influences. The latter mostly shows in the naming conventions of many places and especially Daedric ruins.

South Asia, especially India, is present for example in Vivec (Vivek is even an Indian name), whose split body color and descriptions as being intersex seem to have their roots in Ardhanarishvara, who is male Shiva merged with female Parvati, which results in depictions like this one:
https://i0.wp.com/detechter.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Tantric-Marriage-by-George-Atherton-Print-111-medium.jpg

And then there's the heavy Chinese influence. The "Tong" found in the Morag Tong or the Camonna Tong is basically this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tong_(organization)
Furniture is also a striking example. Many of the Great House furnishings are exact copies of Chinese antique furniture. The Indoril and the Redoran end table, the longer Hlaalu benches, also one of the single beds, for example. There's a lot, really, except for the Telvanni rootwood furnishings (there are also a few Elsweyr furnishings of traditional Chinese design, by the way; one of the benches comes to my mind, also the one big square bed with the canopy). It also shows in the typical male Dunmer clothing that consists of a kimono-like shirt, a skirt or pants, a sleeveless coat over it and a wide belt. The Sixth House robe even has typical pointed boots. If one knows about these things, they are really eye-catching. And I'm sure there are many other, different influences, too, that I probably miss, because they are not familar to me.

Oh, and before I forget, these seem to be the inspiration for that one druid statue I linked above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_figures
And there are also many more examples on High Isle and Galen.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

On the later topic, I genuinely believe that a big part of DBs liking in ESO is thanks to Elam. (...) As a bonus, there's no forced flirting and immature innuendos. I like him and many other characters without having forced and cringey flirting poured all over me. I actually like the characters who don't do that a lot more. Because flirting is more than calling someone a hero in a breathy manner or complimenting their looks.

This is why it feels to weird in this game. It's not only obtrusive, it's just so superficial and generic, without nuances and without individuality, really. I mean, it already amuses me everytime some random quest npc yells something likes "Hey you! You look strong!" at my skinny noodle-armed Dunmer. But if it's supposed to be "romantic", it gets even more cringe. It's just stupid. And it's a bit sad, to me, that this seems to work with many people, though. If one looks at the "fan favorites", it's mostly this "flirty" type with actually always the same lines: Something about player character being handsome, about spending the night, having dinner or a bath together or whatever - often without having spoken more than a few words before; do they really think attraction works like that? Maybe I don't want to know... And ZOS pursuing this even more, because they think this is what customers want, is even more awful for people who are not into this. I try to look at it from a positive point of view, though - at least they didn't have that idea already in Morrowind or Summerset times. Imagine they had slapped "flirty" on everything already back then: Flirty merchants, flirty siltstrider taxi drivers, flirty netch, flirty sloads, flirty Ritemaster Iachesis (of course dumbed down to "Hey good-looking!")... What a nightmare.

Oh, and while we're at scholars and good dialogues again: I've read that both Sotha Sil and Revus Demnevanni were written by Leamon Tuttle. Which is interesting. And worrying, as he doesn't work on ESO anymore. And I'm not really confident whoever writes dialogues now would get the tone right in these two cases.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I'm also probably not helping from getting this thread getting derailed right now.

At least it's still about ESO, and I think there were a few bits about the Dark Brotherhood somewhere inbetween

tbh for me, since i have finished thieves.
Id have to rate like this.

Characters? thieves
Story? thieves slightly.
Story missions? Thieves slightly.
Final quest? Dark brotherhood easily.
Zone? dark brotherhood.
daily quests? Thieves
Black sacrament vs hit list? Thieves guild.
Side missions? Dark brotherhood.
Rewards? Thieves guild
Thieves throves vs Blade of woe ? Dark brotherhood.
Delves? Thieves guild
Black Sacrament vs Heist? Thieves guild.
Puzzles? Thieves guild.

Winner????

Thieves guild.

Both were good but preferred Dark Brotherhood. By far, these two were my favorites. I'd love to see more missions or added quests for them.

I prefer the Thieves Guild over Dark Brotherhood. Though I do like the Gold Coast region DB as it progressed became too cultish and religious for my tastes.