What dlc was better? Thieves guild or Dark brotherhood?

SeaGtGruff

Dark brotherhood

Destai wrote: »

Shark Teeth's Grotto is my least favorite in the entire game. Those traps, ugh.

I enjoy Shark's Teeth Grotto because it's an interesting place to explore, with all those tunnels, stairs, bridges, etc.-- a vertical as well as horizontal maze.

But yeah, those traps are painful. I made sure to crouch at the appropriate spots so I could disable the traps and tripwires, but I forgot about some of them or got too close before trying to disarm them, and boom! They do a good bit of damage.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Thieves guild

Thieves guild gave us vMOL, which is still the best piece of PVE content in the game. They have yet to design a better fight than the Twins at launch (power creep has certainly trivialized it).

ZOS_Kevin

The team is always interested in seeing the results of these polls, so we'll keep an eye out and share with some of our devs as more ppl reply. Thanks for starting this up, @francesinhalover.

Necrotech_Master

Thieves guild

i mainly voted thieves guild although i find the 2 dlc to be about equal

thieves guild gave us a trial and DB did not

i also still make good money from doing the heists (thieves guild motifs + the occasional off-size bahraha/syvarra piece that still sells super well)

i do like the blade of woe, but i dislike that it still gives a time penalty in heists for using it, even if you were never detected (the blade of woe also does heavily trivialize thieves guild main quests lol)

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

That sort of content has no attraction for me. I never play "bad girls", evil of any sort, necromancers. That's all just plain repugnant to me. Actually, I don't play that sort of content in any game I've ever played since I started CRPGs in the mid 80s. It's not a fun or interesting style of play for me.

Oblivion's thieves guild storyline wasn't that evil, actually. It often felt more like a Robin Hood story, including returning taxes to the poor and getting rid of a zealous watch captain by moving him to a different town. A very different take compared to the quests in Skyrim and now in ESO. I found it interesting. I can understand though that to some people this has no appeal at all.

Destai wrote: »

Storywise, Thieves Guild for sure. I think it's honestly one of the best stories in ESO. All of the characters are really human

That's interesting, considering most weren't human

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

That sort of content has no attraction for me. I never play "bad girls", evil of any sort, necromancers. That's all just plain repugnant to me. Actually, I don't play that sort of content in any game I've ever played since I started CRPGs in the mid 80s. It's not a fun or interesting style of play for me.

Oblivion's thieves guild storyline wasn't that evil, actually. It often felt more like a Robin Hood story, including returning taxes to the poor and getting rid of a zealous watch captain by moving him to a different town. A very different take compared to the quests in Skyrim and now in ESO. I found it interesting. I can understand though that to some people this has no appeal at all.

In Skyrim I ignore the whole TG thing. And I destroy the DB. The Morag Tong in Morrowind wsa one of the reasons I never did the MQ or finished the game at all (the other was all the Dunmer, not my favorite race by any means; outside of playing Skyrim I prefer Altmer to Dunmer - but Skyrim is anomalous in many ways I find.)

Anyway, I appreciate your interest, and your ability to not trash me for my views.

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

In Skyrim I ignore the whole TG thing. And I destroy the DB.

I think it was a great design choice that it was possible to do that and to even have an extra quest about that (even if it was rather short). That was how it was in my first playthrough of Skyrim, by the way. It was so clear to me that the character I played would not accept being kidnapped and letting the culprit get away with that, no matter what.

TaSheen wrote: »

Anyway, I appreciate your interest, and your ability to not trash me for my views.

I think everyone should play the way they want. No one has the right to interfere with other persons' personal views and decisions as long as they do no harm (which clearly isn't the case when it comes to different playstyles in a game).

Dr_Con

Thieves guild

It would be nice to have more sets like Syvarra's Scales and Bahraha's Curse in the game. Syvarra's scales items retain most of their value and relevancy even a half decade later, and even still with the transmute system ingame. This provides incentive to go back and revisit the DLC. Bahraha's Curse is like Leeching Plate, only a smaller (but more dependable location) as an area of effect. It would see more use in PVP if it was instead Oblivion Damage (which isn't too difficult to imagine as the rune left on the ground is in daedric and it only does ~500 damage a second to each target in the aoe).

Sithis's Touch was released during a time where the speed cap behaved differently, it's a huge victim to power creep now and needs a lot of TLC- maybe consider moving the 2 and 3 piece bonuses to being critical chance 657 on 2pc, and critical damage 4% on 4 pc, the spell/damage buff on 3 pc, and have the 5 piece bonus as an added stat (Stam/magicka?) with the 5pc perk. Don't get me wrong, this set can be useful on certain stage 2 vampire builds, but that is a small niche to perform in for a set that is supposed to be the one overland set for an entire expansion.


Thieves Guild DLC would draw more appeal and might be on the same level as DB's Blade of Woe if the Thieves' Troves were in more places ingame (trials and dungeons, for example- obviously after the first required boss encounter, and maybe requiring some little jumps or hidden interactions to get to).

Both DLCs could gain some favor if future trials and dungeons get more options by being in the thieves guild or dark brotherhood... Currently the only reward is different dialogue options to start off the conversations with quest npcs.

Example- a shortcut is unlocked if you are in the thieves' guild, a target that alerts a lot of adds is assassinated or guards are not alerted if you are in the dark brotherhood.

Both expansions are ignored by many past free weeks as there is little revisitation value beyond doing endeavors, by implementing some trial/dungeon altering options for being in these guilds, these DLCs will gain value.

Dreepa

Dark brotherhood

Just as Emil Pagliarulo, a designer of the dark brotherhood in the daggerfall series, pointed out: Because it is a straight forward inversion of the christian belief (Nightmother, Listener, Speaker, Dark Sacrament) which just GOES FOR IT.

Because in the age of political correctness it is one of the few last iconic bastions of creative freedom of art that is not oppressed by cancel culture. And not like Hitman games, or Assassins Creed etc you are "the good guy/gal" where 99% of the targets are morally justified, because they did something really evil (criminal boss, terrorist, abuser, etc, etc).

No, in The Eldar Scrolls series, you are granted the freedom to roleplay something really evil.



You play a nasty murderer that kills for money. Escapism in the purest form.

Syldras

Dreepa wrote: »

No, in The Eldar Scrolls series, you are granted the freedom to roleplay something really evil.
You play a nasty murderer that kills for money. Escapism in the purest form.

Money? I'm not sure that's what the Dark Brotherhood is about...

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

In Skyrim I ignore the whole TG thing. And I destroy the DB.

I think it was a great design choice that it was possible to do that and to even have an extra quest about that (even if it was rather short). That was how it was in my first playthrough of Skyrim, by the way. It was so clear to me that the character I played would not accept being kidnapped and letting the culprit get away with that, no matter what.

TaSheen wrote: »

Anyway, I appreciate your interest, and your ability to not trash me for my views.

I think everyone should play the way they want. No one has the right to interfere with other persons' personal views and decisions as long as they do no harm (which clearly isn't the case when it comes to different playstyles in a game).

The one thing that's a bit disappointing about me not feeling like playing the DB is how much I really LOVE Elam Drals' patented version of snark (which I didn't know about before Blackwood and which is much like my own). I do wish we could have him as a house guest, and I haven't previously had much use for the house guests!

Syldras

In addition to my last comment: The DB is not about money, it's clearly religious/cultist/spiritual in origin. And I don't see it as a sole evil inversion either. It clearly has references to the real-world historical Thuggee who are considered to have been a sect murdering in the name of Kali:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
There's even a sculpture somewhere in TES4 Oblivion that looked like a typical Kali depiction. And Sithis in ESO reminds of one type of iconography for Chamunda, who is also closely related to Kali. If you look closely and compare:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-crown_store-Sithis_the_Dread_Father.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chamunda_at_Odisha_State_Museum,_Bhubaneswar,_Odisha,_India.jpg
The flaming halo (that is interpreted more like feathers in ESO), the severed head and cups they're holding, the necklace made from skulls, even the posture and the whole emaciated appearance. So there you see the real-world reference.

TaSheen wrote: »

The one thing that's a bit disappointing about me not feeling like playing the DB is how much I really LOVE Elam Drals' patented version of snark (which I didn't know about before Blackwood and which is much like my own). I do wish we could have him as a house guest, and I haven't previously had much use for the house guests!

He's quite unique. I wish there would be more interesting characters who seem truly individual. Many, especially the "fan favorites", are just either shining heroes or the "flirty scoundrel" type... Which isn't exactly what I find appealing.

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

In addition to my last comment: The DB is not about money, it's clearly religious/cultist/spiritual in origin. And I don't see it as a sole evil inversion either. It clearly has references to the real-world historical Thuggee who are considered to have been a sect murdering in the name of Kali:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
There's even a sculpture somewhere in TES4 Oblivion that looked like a typical Kali depiction. And Sithis in ESO reminds of one type of iconography for Chamunda, who is also closely related to Kali. If you look closely and compare:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-crown_store-Sithis_the_Dread_Father.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chamunda_at_Odisha_State_Museum,_Bhubaneswar,_Odisha,_India.jpg
The flaming halo (that is interpreted more like feathers in ESO), the severed head and cups they're holding, the necklace made from skulls, even the posture and the whole emaciated appearance. So there you see the real-world reference.

TaSheen wrote: »

The one thing that's a bit disappointing about me not feeling like playing the DB is how much I really LOVE Elam Drals' patented version of snark (which I didn't know about before Blackwood and which is much like my own). I do wish we could have him as a house guest, and I haven't previously had much use for the house guests!

He's quite unique. I wish there would be more interesting characters who seem truly individual. Many, especially the "fan favorites", are just either shining heroes or the "flirty scoundrel" type... Which isn't exactly what I find appealing.

Huh. You know, I had never thought to consider the DB as derivative from Thuggee - and yes, I've known about Thuggee for many years due to my inability to avoid reading everything that comes my way no matter how obscure.

I do remember that sculpture - though it's been years since I played MW at all, so I don't know now where I saw it. Now, Chamunda - I remember the name, but wouldn't have realized it as related to Kali, but I never read very deeply into the literature. My mother was the one who was very much involved in India's history and religions/mythologies (I was a frustrated Egyptologist myself.... specifically interested in the Amarna period).

As for Elam - he's the single most interesting character I've ever run across in ESO - or any TES game! And yes - just spare me from flirtatious anything....

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

You know, I had never thought to consider the DB as derivative from Thuggee - and yes, I've known about Thuggee for many years due to my inability to avoid reading everything that comes my way no matter how obscure.

Oh, I can relate to that. I find almost everything fascinating - except for the usual smalltalk. It runs in my family, I guess. And because of that, I also find it really fascinating to see that many items in ESO are obviously inspired by real-world things. Be it the Redoran bed, which is almost a copy of a Chinese "moon bed" from the 19th century:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Redoran_Bed,_Canopy
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Moon-gate_bed_shown_in_the_Philadelphia_Centennial_Exposition,_Ningbo,_China,_c._1876,_satinwood_(huang_lu),_other_Asian_woods,_ivory_-_Peabody_Essex_Museum_-_DSC07353.jpg
Or this one druid sculpture that came with the last update, that is actually of Mesopotamian origin:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Druidic_Statue,_Planter
Oh, I don't find the reference photo now. I'm sure @Lugaldu can help. He's an archeologist - asleep at the moment though. But I'm sure he can help later (although this is a bit off-topic, I must admit). Personally, I am a historian, nothing fancy though, Central Europe, modern times, focussing on memorial culture. But I'm interested in almost everything, so I pick up a lot, no matter if it's about history, different cultures, traditions, arts of all kind, even natural science.

TaSheen wrote: »

As for Elam - he's the single most interesting character I've ever run across in ESO - or any TES game! And yes - just spare me from flirtatious anything....

I can understand that many people seem to like flirtyness (the "sex sells" principle is nothing new after all), and I can accept it if something like that is included - sometimes. It gets annoying though if it doesn't seem to be about much else anymore, which was one reason I disliked quite a few quests from last year's content. I wish they understood that not everyone enjoys that. I very much prefer mostly the scholarly types in ESO, no matter if prominent npcs or just minor characters: Sotha Sil, Revus Demnevanni, Neramo, Raynor Vanos, Fennorian... They could make something interesting of that. Not sure if that will happen, though, as these people are definitively not flirty at all.

TaSheen

Oh that BED! My gosh.... I've never been to that museum, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my forays through the Smithsonian's various venues over the years! In fact, I'm one of those that when presented with a museum, walk through slowly, reading EVERYTHING even if it's not something in my "fields" (as if I have them)!

The Peacock Room.... Yeah, that was my very first introduction to the Smithsonian's riches. Just.... wow. And when I was able to see Fallingwater.... I cried. I've been very lucky to have the ability to go places, see things, stand in front of beauty and cry..... *sniffle* I have the memories (my mind is pretty sharp still) and yes, I'd love to go back to see them all again - but husband's not in really good shape, so travel is not a good idea. I do have the memories.... thankfully!

Flirty stuff really annoys me in games. It's to do with my early working life, and that's all I'm going to say about it. As for your list there - Sotha, Remnus, Neramo - they're great. Not so thrilled with the Vanos couple, and really, have no use at all for Fennorian. Sorry, allergic to vampires (and werewolves).

Dreepa

Dark brotherhood

@Syldras For the player that is approached by an opportunity that opportunity at first is money. The character does not know too much about the inner working of the DB at that stage. Basically you get approached by someone asking you to become a killer and get paid doing so. So that is why I mentioned money.

From this interview I took the inverted catholicism, as the designer explains himself("Sithis is god, the nightmother is mary, etc."):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqqVMVp39Xk

francesinhalover

TaSheen wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

No opinion. I don't play that content in any TES game.

I respect that! but why?

That sort of content has no attraction for me. I never play "bad girls", evil of any sort, necromancers. That's all just plain repugnant to me. Actually, I don't play that sort of content in any game I've ever played since I started CRPGs in the mid 80s. It's not a fun or interesting style of play for me.

hhahaah meanwhile there's me, i'm a good necromancer! tottaly! I'm hero of daggerfall after all! and you bet i'm saving the world more times

but yeah i have been trying to be more bad on eso, but i can't i always do the good choices. sometimes i spend several mins deciding what choice to do, like with that spider daedra on alik'r desert.

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh that BED! My gosh.... I've never been to that museum, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my forays through the Smithsonian's various venues over the years! In fact, I'm one of those that when presented with a museum, walk through slowly, reading EVERYTHING even if it's not something in my "fields" (as if I have them)!]

I haven't travelled outside Europe for many years now (can't travel by plane anymore, eardrum issues), but at least I've seen many photos and read many books about museums and historical places abroad, and I'm so happy there's the internet nowadays that is basically a source of endless information (if only everyone used it reasonably!). Of course seeing things in person is still better, but reading about it is a kind of surrogate at least. And I can still travel within Europe, which isn't bad either.

TaSheen wrote: »

As for your list there - Sotha, Remnus, Neramo - they're great. Not so thrilled with the Vanos couple, and really, have no use at all for Fennorian. Sorry, allergic to vampires (and werewolves).

I have a thing for traditional vampire novels. Not only Bram Stoker's Dracula, also Carmilla by Sheridan Le Fanu, or John Polidori's The Vampyre (and many others). Modern stories - normally not so much. Actually I don't even like the modern "good vampire" trope that much. But I personally still like Fennorian somehow, probably because he's an exception to all those flirty, braggy, adventurer npcs and seems calmer and more thoughtful.

Dreepa wrote: »

@Syldras For the player that is approached by an opportunity that opportunity at first is money. The character does not know too much about the inner working of the DB at that stage. Basically you get approached by someone asking you to become a killer and get paid doing so. So that is why I mentioned money.

Okay, seen like this, it makes sense. I played my character as someone who has already heard basic rumours about the DB (dialogue leaves it vague how much the player knows).

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Oh that BED! My gosh.... I've never been to that museum, though I have thoroughly enjoyed my forays through the Smithsonian's various venues over the years! In fact, I'm one of those that when presented with a museum, walk through slowly, reading EVERYTHING even if it's not something in my "fields" (as if I have them)!]

I haven't travelled outside Europe for many years now (can't travel by plane anymore, eardrum issues), but at least I've seen many photos and read many books about museums and historical places abroad, and I'm so happy there's the internet nowadays that is basically a source of endless information (if only everyone used it reasonably!). Of course seeing things in person is still better, but reading about it is a kind of surrogate at least. And I can still travel within Europe, which isn't bad either.

TaSheen wrote: »

As for your list there - Sotha, Remnus, Neramo - they're great. Not so thrilled with the Vanos couple, and really, have no use at all for Fennorian. Sorry, allergic to vampires (and werewolves).

I have a thing for traditional vampire novels. Not only Bram Stoker's Dracula, also Carmilla by Sheridan Le Fanu, or John Polidori's The Vampyre (and many others). Modern stories - normally not so much. Actually I don't even like the modern "good vampire" trope that much. But I personally still like Fennorian somehow, probably because he's an exception to all those flirty, braggy, adventurer npcs and seems calmer and more thoughtful.

As for "modern vampires" - I highly recommend April White's Immortal Descendents book series. This is the one vampire situation that actually makes sense to me, so because it makes sense, I'm good with the premise. Now, fair warning: it's written from the POV of a 17 year old female. While that works for me, it might not work at all for others.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Syldras wrote: »

In addition to my last comment: The DB is not about money, it's clearly religious/cultist/spiritual in origin. And I don't see it as a sole evil inversion either. It clearly has references to the real-world historical Thuggee who are considered to have been a sect murdering in the name of Kali:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
There's even a sculpture somewhere in TES4 Oblivion that looked like a typical Kali depiction. And Sithis in ESO reminds of one type of iconography for Chamunda, who is also closely related to Kali. If you look closely and compare:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-crown_store-Sithis_the_Dread_Father.jpg
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chamunda_at_Odisha_State_Museum,_Bhubaneswar,_Odisha,_India.jpg
The flaming halo (that is interpreted more like feathers in ESO), the severed head and cups they're holding, the necklace made from skulls, even the posture and the whole emaciated appearance. So there you see the real-world reference.

Apologises, butting in here a little, because as someone who is a lore nerd and has always loved history, even debated having it become my job, but ended up mostly just having it as a hobby. Although my focus is often on furniture and clothing.
The Dark Brotherhood got two big inspirations, one being the Catholic church, but of course twisted, and the Unification or Death. Also known as the Black Hand, a secret assassin-y (allegedly) military society from early 20th century Serbia. Albeit they likely took inspiration from more places, which is quite common with Elder Scrolls. Grab a bit from here and there and smash together.

I also share your fascination, or interest, in finding clear real-world inspiration for things in game, especially furniture of course, and instantly recognised the moon beds with joy. Such beautiful craftsmanship, and interesting choice in style for the Great Houses dunmer.

On the later topic, I genuinely believe that a big part of DBs liking in ESO is thanks to Elam. His well written dialogue with clear concept of his character along with good voice acting made him stick out, despite mainly being an npc who offers repeatable quests. Which of course makes him feel wasted and forced into what is Blackwood's mess of a writing. At least his snark made it more bearable, because like TaSheen so do I love that. He is quite similar to one of my own dunmer, well apart from the whole being an assassin in a death cult that is. But the snark and enthusiasm for food is on point.

As a bonus, there's no forced flirting and immature innuendos. I like him and many other characters without having forced and cringey flirting poured all over me. I actually like the characters who don't do that a lot more. Because flirting is more than calling someone a hero in a breathy manner or complimenting their looks. Romantic interest in someone can be shown in many ways, such as discussing your fondness for food and a little murdering as you spend time together, albeit I don't think Elam has such interest. He was just being an example.
Of course such nuance is unlikely to be seen in ESO.

I'm also probably not helping from getting this thread getting derailed right now.

Hapexamendios

Dark brotherhood

I like killing better than robbing. More fun for me.

aaisoaho

Thieves guild

Both were really similar to me. The questline progression for me made following the main story a bit tedious.

When it comes to landscape, I find Hew's Bane to be more interesting. Varying terrain and altitudes beats the hillside plains of Gold Coast. Also the town design is better in Hew's Bane compared to the Gold Coast - even if it means harder to navigate town.

When it comes to delves: I prefer Hew's Bane. I find the pirate cove and the tomb more intriguing than a ghost cave and outlaw ruins.

And finally: Thieves Guild had Maw of Lorkhaj. I loved learning the Twins. Once it finally clicked, it was fun and enjoyable to execute. The backyard is my guilty pleasure: I get to run and play a platforming game while others dance around meteors and hugs the walls. I get to relax while others sweat. And the music in there deserves praise too.

Syldras

TaSheen wrote: »

As for "modern vampires" - I highly recommend April White's Immortal Descendents book series. This is the one vampire situation that actually makes sense to me, so because it makes sense, I'm good with the premise. Now, fair warning: it's written from the POV of a 17 year old female. While that works for me, it might not work at all for others.

Well, for me it really depends on how it's written (the protagonist of the traditional story Carmilla is also a late teen or early adult woman). I'll have a look, thanks!

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

The Dark Brotherhood got two big inspirations, one being the Catholic church, but of course twisted, and the Unification or Death. Also known as the Black Hand, a secret assassin-y (allegedly) military society from early 20th century Serbia. Albeit they likely took inspiration from more places, which is quite common with Elder Scrolls. Grab a bit from here and there and smash together.

@NotaDaedraWorshipper I recognize a few Catholic terms in the Dark Brotherhood lore, of course, but I don't really have much knowledge about that. It's not really present in my family (at least for the last 100 years). Generally, TES lore is all a huge mishmash, I agree. Which leads to another point:

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I also share your fascination, or interest, in finding clear real-world inspiration for things in game, especially furniture of course, and instantly recognised the moon beds with joy. Such beautiful craftsmanship, and interesting choice in style for the Great Houses dunmer.

Morrowind is an especially interesting example mixing different East and South Asian and Mesopotamian influences. The latter mostly shows in the naming conventions of many places and especially Daedric ruins.

South Asia, especially India, is present for example in Vivec (Vivek is even an Indian name), whose split body color and descriptions as being intersex seem to have their roots in Ardhanarishvara, who is male Shiva merged with female Parvati, which results in depictions like this one:
https://i0.wp.com/detechter.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Tantric-Marriage-by-George-Atherton-Print-111-medium.jpg

And then there's the heavy Chinese influence. The "Tong" found in the Morag Tong or the Camonna Tong is basically this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tong_(organization)
Furniture is also a striking example. Many of the Great House furnishings are exact copies of Chinese antique furniture. The Indoril and the Redoran end table, the longer Hlaalu benches, also one of the single beds, for example. There's a lot, really, except for the Telvanni rootwood furnishings (there are also a few Elsweyr furnishings of traditional Chinese design, by the way; one of the benches comes to my mind, also the one big square bed with the canopy). It also shows in the typical male Dunmer clothing that consists of a kimono-like shirt, a skirt or pants, a sleeveless coat over it and a wide belt. The Sixth House robe even has typical pointed boots. If one knows about these things, they are really eye-catching. And I'm sure there are many other, different influences, too, that I probably miss, because they are not familar to me.

Oh, and before I forget, these seem to be the inspiration for that one druid statue I linked above:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_figures
And there are also many more examples on High Isle and Galen.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

On the later topic, I genuinely believe that a big part of DBs liking in ESO is thanks to Elam. (...) As a bonus, there's no forced flirting and immature innuendos. I like him and many other characters without having forced and cringey flirting poured all over me. I actually like the characters who don't do that a lot more. Because flirting is more than calling someone a hero in a breathy manner or complimenting their looks.

This is why it feels to weird in this game. It's not only obtrusive, it's just so superficial and generic, without nuances and without individuality, really. I mean, it already amuses me everytime some random quest npc yells something likes "Hey you! You look strong!" at my skinny noodle-armed Dunmer. But if it's supposed to be "romantic", it gets even more cringe. It's just stupid. And it's a bit sad, to me, that this seems to work with many people, though. If one looks at the "fan favorites", it's mostly this "flirty" type with actually always the same lines: Something about player character being handsome, about spending the night, having dinner or a bath together or whatever - often without having spoken more than a few words before; do they really think attraction works like that? Maybe I don't want to know... And ZOS pursuing this even more, because they think this is what customers want, is even more awful for people who are not into this. I try to look at it from a positive point of view, though - at least they didn't have that idea already in Morrowind or Summerset times. Imagine they had slapped "flirty" on everything already back then: Flirty merchants, flirty siltstrider taxi drivers, flirty netch, flirty sloads, flirty Ritemaster Iachesis (of course dumbed down to "Hey good-looking!")... What a nightmare.

Oh, and while we're at scholars and good dialogues again: I've read that both Sotha Sil and Revus Demnevanni were written by Leamon Tuttle. Which is interesting. And worrying, as he doesn't work on ESO anymore. And I'm not really confident whoever writes dialogues now would get the tone right in these two cases.

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

I'm also probably not helping from getting this thread getting derailed right now.

At least it's still about ESO, and I think there were a few bits about the Dark Brotherhood somewhere inbetween

zaria

Thieves guild

Syldras wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

That sort of content has no attraction for me. I never play "bad girls", evil of any sort, necromancers. That's all just plain repugnant to me. Actually, I don't play that sort of content in any game I've ever played since I started CRPGs in the mid 80s. It's not a fun or interesting style of play for me.

Oblivion's thieves guild storyline wasn't that evil, actually. It often felt more like a Robin Hood story, including returning taxes to the poor and getting rid of a zealous watch captain by moving him to a different town. A very different take compared to the quests in Skyrim and now in ESO. I found it interesting. I can understand though that to some people this has no appeal at all.

Destai wrote: »

Storywise, Thieves Guild for sure. I think it's honestly one of the best stories in ESO. All of the characters are really human

That's interesting, considering most weren't human

Yes, Oblivion thief guild gave this gem.


This is just before the grey fox become the count again
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:The_Ultimate_Heist
And because of randomness in Oblivion Hieronymus Lex storms into the room talking about mudcrabs.

And agree on the thief guild in Oblivion, no they was not the good guys, they was thieves but the grey fox quest line was more about breaking the curse and restoring him as count of Anvil, more fun in that you previously got the main opponent Hieronymus Lex moved to Anvil so he should not interfere with the thief guild anymore.

Interesting you can do the entire ESO thief guild quest line with killing one monster, the gate guardian for the tomb.

francesinhalover

tbh for me, since i have finished thieves.
Id have to rate like this.

Characters? thieves
Story? thieves slightly.
Story missions? Thieves slightly.
Final quest? Dark brotherhood easily.
Zone? dark brotherhood.
daily quests? Thieves
Black sacrament vs hit list? Thieves guild.
Side missions? Dark brotherhood.
Rewards? Thieves guild
Thieves throves vs Blade of woe ? Dark brotherhood.
Delves? Thieves guild
Black Sacrament vs Heist? Thieves guild.
Puzzles? Thieves guild.

Winner????

Thieves guild.

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

Thieves guild

Hew's Bane continues to be one of the highest quality zones in the game.

adyreonb14_ESO

Dark brotherhood

Both were good but preferred Dark Brotherhood. By far, these two were my favorites. I'd love to see more missions or added quests for them.

AvalonRanger

Thieves guild

Thieves guild side quest has many of lore friendly drama.
So I like it than assassin quest.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Thieves guild

I prefer the Thieves Guild over Dark Brotherhood. Though I do like the Gold Coast region DB as it progressed became too cultish and religious for my tastes.

WhiteCoatSyndrome

Thieves guild

Dark Brotherhood just felt like Thieves Guild 2.0, but with more murder and less likable NPCs.