[Suggestion] Reduce dot time

WrathOfInnos · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

There was a time when many DoTs were 6-8s and it was glorious. The DoT ticks were higher to account for casting more often, and it meant juggling fewer skills and easier static rotations.

For example, I recall an old Sorc build that used 6s Lightning Flood, 6s Unstable Wall and 6s Daedric Prey, then 3 spammables. Compare that to the current Sorc meta with: 4s Armaments, 6s prey, 15s stampede, 18s barbed trap, 20s hurricane, and 31s carve.

Good luck keeping good uptimes on all those. And if you try to simplify it and only use a couple DoTs damage drops significantly, because each DoT by itself is so weak. The claim that longer DoTs have made the game easier is preposterous.

Necrotech_Master · December 2022

i think most dots were in a good spot at 10 sec, now with the 20 sec dots i dont really mind them, but they just tick so dang slow and feel so weak it feels like you get better dmg just using a spammable now

we do have a 4 sec dots that exist, and ill say they definitely feel too short and you almost have to use that skill as a spammable (example acid spray and burning talons have a 4 sec dot)

so i feel like 4-6 sec dots would be too short, but i hate the 2 sec tick rate with our 20 sec dots

kojou · December 2022

I'm ok with have Short, Medium, and Long dots, but 4-6 seconds for everything would be atrocious.

I would like to see classes have DoTs that generally a pattern of multiples (e.g. 6 seconds for a short DoT, 12 seconds for a medium, and 24 seconds for a long DoT) That way players can choose the level of burst they need for a fight. Classes can have individuality based one the number of each duration available to them.

axi · December 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

As DK Zen I must write, that your recommendation (4-6 sec) would make me jump of cliff.

Of course, such changes would require further rebalancing of skills and setovu

Changes that require even more changes just to work are usually bad changes.

francesinhalover · December 2022

Absolutely no

Yeah no game doesn't rotate around pvp.

I'm sorry but, game feels amazing to play with my skills at 20secs. i can actually enjoy the dungeons i paid for instead of looking at dot durations

Parasaurolophus · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

FluffyBird wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Nothing prevents me from using 10 dots now, but also nothing forces me into pure dot-management if I want to keep my dots up.

I don't agree with you. The large gap in dots timing made static rotation almost impossible, making the fight much more difficult. In addition, players will never have a choice of skills based on convenience, as players will learn to play using the most effective skills.

Parasaurolophus · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

kojou wrote: »

I'm ok with have Short, Medium, and Long dots, but 4-6 seconds for everything would be atrocious.

I would like to see classes have DoTs that generally a pattern of multiples (e.g. 6 seconds for a short DoT, 12 seconds for a medium, and 24 seconds for a long DoT) That way players can choose the level of burst they need for a fight. Classes can have individuality based one the number of each duration available to them.

I don't agree with you. The large gap in dots timing made static rotation almost impossible, making the fight much more difficult. In addition, players will never have a choice of skills based on convenience, as players will learn to play using the most effective skills.

the1andonlyskwex · December 2022

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

The game is built around having 2 bars. You can’t keep all your dots up if they only last 5 or 6 secs. When playing a full dps in a trial it is usual to have about 8 or 9 damage skills that need to be kept up which is impossible if they only last 5-6 secs.

But you can rebalance the damage values so that a smaller amount of dots is normal.

The only rebalancing that I can see having your desired effect is nerfing DOTs to the point of uselessness (so that nobody uses any).

As long as short-duration DOTs do more damage per cast than a spammable, optimal builds will equip as many as practical (ideally enough to fill a whole rotation). If they do less damage than a spammable, people won't use them at all.

Long duration DOTs are a little different because there's some risk of the target dying or purging before the duration runs out (and there aren't enough DOT skills or bar slots to fill a 20 second rotation).

Everaen · December 2022

They need a CP to facilitate a DoT playstyle.

For example, "Your DoTs overall tick quantity is halved but each tick does twice the damage"

Or...

"Your DoTs tick X% faster and each tick does Y% more damage"

Or maybe a 5pc set bonus like: "Using an execute ability while your target is below 50% doubles the speed your DoTs tick (every 0.5s for 1s DoT ticks, and every 1s for 2s DoT ticks)"

Or anything similar to those.

That way, if some players like the longer DoTs, they don't have to slot DoT-focused CPs or use the gear.

Ciotola · December 2022

I see a big problem here: each specific dps plays around too many dots.

far be it from me to want to emphasize the identity of a class. it is clear that if a game requires meta specs to play with a large number of dots there is a fundamental problem .

I want to draw attention to this: we are asking for an adjustment of the dots, because asking that we can buoldare even outside the monotone is too much?

I look at the builds that Alcast offers, if you don't like it, get over it

mag sorc 5 dot
stamsorc 8 dot
heal sorc 5 hot 2 dot

magblade 6 dot
stamblade 7 dot

mag dk 7 dot

I can continue...

MerguezMan · December 2022

Absolutely no

There are several things to consider, and your approach would probably lead to another hammer on the nerf-buff balance.

Current DOTs are a bit too long, and feel weak, I do agree.
Previous DOTs were too strong, and bit too short for new or disabled players.

Shortening DOTs more than before at 4-6s would mean super-stressful rotations if someone would expect 100% uptime, so going under 10s is and absolute no.

That being said, some standardization of all DOTs about 16s (instead of 20s) would probably be fine.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2022

Absolutely no

I think you are missing the mark. I agree that U35, despite good intentions, completely missed the mark. The skill gap widened.

The problem is not length, although I think some of the length of timers are out of control, its inconsistency that is the problem. 4-6 second DOT timers would create their own issues, unless you were literally talking about a build with oakensoul that was a rotation where you just pressed. 1,2,3,4,5 over and over.

4 second DOTS would cause excessive bar swapping unless playing oakensoul. I am all for items like this to ease accessibility, but we should not be designing the game around them.

What we need are consistent timers that are multiples of each other, so you can build interesting but relatively straight forward static rotations. For example:

-A handful of skills might be 3 seconds, very powerful skills like blastbones, sub assault. Certainly not every class needs one, but those types of rotations can be fun.
-Other classes might have a 6 second skill, little easier to manage, but same idea. This would mostly be the standard for a class apex skill. Its a skill you build a rotation around. Curse, POTL, Merciless, Talons (already a lot of classes work this way).
-Next we have the vast majority of dots at 12 seconds. I dont care if they are single target or AOE, make 12 seconds the standard.
- a handful of damage skills or perhaps buffs might be in the 24 second range. Perhaps more powerful buffs, or maybe some area denial skills.
- An even smaller handful of long duration less powerful buffs (Crit surge, netch, siphoning strikes, etc) would be 48 seconds.

That way you can always build a rotation that is static. And while a pure dynamic rotation might come out ahead, the difference is not going to be nearly as much as it is now.

rexagamemnon · December 2022

My unpopular opinion: keep the increased duration of DOTs, while going back to the pre-U35 1 damage tick every second.
-Everyone’s sustain improves
-raises the floor for the casuals like zos prefers, by reducing the amount of time bar swapping and easier rotations.

LordDragonMara · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

I would be perfectly fine with that. Or at least bring them back to 10 seconds. Now i can play 3 games simultaneously and still need to mash spammable all the time, which is terrible.

Nihilr · December 2022

Absolutely no

rexagamemnon wrote: »

My unpopular opinion: keep the increased duration of DOTs, while going back to the pre-U35 1 damage tick every second.
-Everyone’s sustain improves
-raises the floor for the casuals like zos prefers, by reducing the amount of time bar swapping and easier rotations.

2 second ticks decreases server load. Especially since this game favors 3-5 DOTs and HOTs per player. Everyone complains about Cyro performance, yet they want faster/frequent damage. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Amottica · December 2022

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

Please explain how top-performing builds somehow need more skills now than before U35 when we used all ten skills prior to U25. Shortening a DOT length does not mean we need to press fewer skills. We still need to use a skill every ~1 second. either way.

Parasaurolophus · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

Amottica wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

Please explain how top-performing builds somehow need more skills now than before U35 when we used all ten skills prior to U25. Shortening a DOT length does not mean we need to press fewer skills. We still need to use a skill every ~1 second. either way.

Yes, we will still need to use the skill every second. But in my experience, it's harder for players to juggle ten skills on different panels with different timings than to keep APM fine.

WrathOfInnos · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

Please explain how top-performing builds somehow need more skills now than before U35 when we used all ten skills prior to U25. Shortening a DOT length does not mean we need to press fewer skills. We still need to use a skill every ~1 second. either way.

Yes, we will still need to use the skill every second. But in my experience, it's harder for players to juggle ten skills on different panels with different timings than to keep APM fine.

Agree with this. Imagine if there were 4 viable 4s DoTs then a player could legitimately go with a 1 bar build and just press the keys 1-4 then repeat. They would not need any timers to track, and eyes can be on the action instead of the skill bar. I'm not saying this should be meta, but making it an option can only help, and its a step toward an effective build compared to the current 1 bar heavy attack or just spammable builds. Something like Blastbones > Acid Spray > Ruinous Scythe > Shadow Silk (if hypothetically 4s each) would be much more interesting than Blastbones > Skull > Skull > Skull.

I recall when 10s stamDK was effectively just ten 10s DoTs. The rotation was: 1,2,3,4,5,swap,1,2,3,4,5 repeat.
I wasn't a big fan of this personally because it left no room for self heals or utility (no flex spot and the rotation breaks if you try using 8-9 10s DoTs). However if we had 8s DoTs then that would alleviate bar space by only needing 8 DoTs for a full rotation.

Some of this is helped by semi-spammables like blastbones, bound armaments or merciless resolve. This hinges on their short duration being a multiple of the longer DoT durations, such as 2 bow procs per 10s DoT. Warden shalks were previously a staple in this category, being cast 4 times in a 12s rotation and meaning only 8 DoTs were needed instead of an impossible 12, unfortunately shalks were ruined a few months ago with extended durations and no longer work in this way.

Honestly there are a lot of good strategies and rotations over the years. Nothing has ever been worse than the mess created by current DoT timers. Many are too long, everything is different, and everyone's eyes are glued to their skill timers instead of the battle.

I will say that the exception is buffs or summons. Things that can be cast before a fight starts and last until the boss is dead or going into a next phase. This would be skills like Igneous Weapons, Netch, Crit Surge, Channeled Focus, Frost Cloak, Skeletal Archer/Arcanist, Shade, and many more. For all of these, longer durations are more user friendly (the opposite of DoTs), they can all be 60s+. There's no disadvantage for using these skills on an enemy that will die in 5-10s (where DoTs would be less than a spammable cast). Even if the fight is long, missing the recast by a few seconds on a 60s skill is not a big deal compared to missing it on a 10 or 20s skill (like Degeneration).

Oreyn_Bearclaw · December 2022

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

Please explain how top-performing builds somehow need more skills now than before U35 when we used all ten skills prior to U25. Shortening a DOT length does not mean we need to press fewer skills. We still need to use a skill every ~1 second. either way.

Yes, we will still need to use the skill every second. But in my experience, it's harder for players to juggle ten skills on different panels with different timings than to keep APM fine.

Have you spent a lot of time playing Necro or Warden (back when sub assault was 3 seconds)? Both at one point were essentially 3 second rotations, or rather a 24 second rotation consisting of 8 slightly different 3 second rotations. That is because the main skill was basically a 3 second DOT (or more accurately, a delayed 3 second burst), either way, it needed cast every 3 seconds.

Even when played purely as a static rotation, they were some of the harder rotations we have ever seen. A 3 second skill often meant. LA>Skill, Swap>LA>Skill>LA Skill, Swap (back to the beginning) Then the next version was Almost Identical, LA>Skill, Swap>LA>Skill,Swap>LA Skill (back to the beginning). Confusing the two was easy to do and resulted in lots of DPS loss. They could be fun, but only if you really were able to Swap cancel with your eyes closed. A 4-6 second DOT, or even a bunch of them, wouldnt be much better. Its just two short to manage if there are more than one.

I agree that what we have now is a complete mess, but 4-6 times is going too far the other way. I keep shouting about skill length being divisible by 3, because basically every class right now has an apex skill that is either 3 or 6 seconds long. Apex skills typically arent DOTs, they are some sort of delayed burst, but are typically the centerpiece of a rotation.

Sorc: Deadric Prey is 6 seconds
Templar: POTL and morphs are 6 seconds (now with a random 10 second buff as well to complicate things)
NB: Mericless/Relentless, can technically be played on the 5 second mark, but most play it at 6.
DK: Talons used to be 6 and it made for a good apex skill. Now its 4 and pretty sure nobody uses it anymore for ST DPS. If any class is missing the obvious Apex skill, its DK.
Necro: Blastbones is 3, short but it can be made to work in a static rotation. 3 is also exactly half of 6, so it lines up in the 3,6,12,24 concept.
Warden: Sub Assault and morphs where 3 at launch, made for a very similar rotation to necro. Now they have separate timers for each morph on the second effect, and as far as I can tell, nobody plays warden DPS, because the apex skill is a nightmare to track/manage.

Point is, we were in a good spot at one point. In my experience, the most enjoyable rotations have been when classes had a clear apex skill to build around, a handful of DOTs that lined up well with the apex skill so you werent under or over casting things, a spammable for when there is nothing else to cast, perhaps an execute, and room for a flex (shield, heal, utility like chains, etc). Not sure what class if any fits that bill these days.

RaptorRodeoGod · December 2022

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing.

So there currently ARE skills that have short DoT durations, namely DK skill Burning Talons and the Bow skill Acid Spray. You could also argue that whipe using the Stinging Slashes set, you turn the DW skill Rending Slashes into a semi-spammable.

Personally, if I wanted to go that route, I'd go Acid Spray with the Talons on an Oakensoul build since the timers are so short. Bith skills have a 4s duration, so that leaves you with 2 skill casts of a spammable/refresh a longer DoT.

Edit: I'm gonna try this on my DK now lol

WrathOfInnos · December 2022

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing.

So there currently ARE skills that have short DoT durations, namely DK skill Burning Talons and the Bow skill Acid Spray. You could also argue that whipe using the Stinging Slashes set, you turn the DW skill Rending Slashes into a semi-spammable.

Personally, if I wanted to go that route, I'd go Acid Spray with the Talons on an Oakensoul build since the timers are so short. Bith skills have a 4s duration, so that leaves you with 2 skill casts of a spammable/refresh a longer DoT.

Edit: I'm gonna try this on my DK now lol

@RaptorRodeoGod Don't forget Deep Breath, it's closer to 3s but you can use it every 4s to make the timing work with Talons. These 2 skills are great on AoE encounters, typically in a rotation like:

DoT1, DoT2, Deep Breath, Talons,
DoT3, DoT4, Deep Breath, Talons
DoT5, DoT6, Deep Breath, Talons

Or for shorter trash fights you can fill the gaps with Whirling Blades spam. I suppose with Acid Spray you'd only need 1 DoT every 4s rotation segment, but I have not seen that done because you want to be in the middle of the action for Deep Breath and Talons, while Acid forces you to position all enemies in front of you.

francesinhalover · January 2023

Absolutely no

Game feels so good with 20 sec dots