[Suggestion] Reduce dot time

Parasaurolophus

First I have to say that I love the combat system in ESO and have no problems with weaving and rotation. However, I applaud ZoS' intentions to make the combat system more friendly to non-hardplayers, and yet I consider update 35 a failure, as it did not achieve its goals. Unless it lowered the bursts of damage, I guess.
But changes to the combat system are needed, since the low involvement of players in some kind of challenge content turns this game into a visual novel every year more and more.
Changes to dots timers in update 35 meant that players need to watch their timers even more, as the timers are too different (10 and 20 seconds, instead of 10-12 before). Oak Soul also performed well and the community loved it.
As such, I'd like to suggest that even more drastic changes to the combat system be tested on the PTS. What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.
I understand that many players are tired of the changes. I'm not really claiming that my suggestion would make the game better. But I would like to discuss it.

Elendir2am

As DK Zen I must write, that your recommendation (4-6 sec) would make me jump of cliff.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

Elendir2am wrote: »

As DK Zen I must write, that your recommendation (4-6 sec) would make me jump of cliff.

Of course, such changes would require further rebalancing of skills and setovu

CGPsaint

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

the1andonlyskwex

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

I don't think that's what would happen. I think you'd just get more complicated rotations that have fewer spammable casts to make room for more DOT refreshs.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What if we reduce the dot timer to 4-6 seconds? This will save players from having to use all the available 10 slots for damage, and there will be more flex slots. This will make the rotation more muscle memory oriented. However, it will still require high AP, weaving and timing. So I think if the "fascination" of the fight suffers, but not critically, I suppose.

This is a terrible idea. I don't mind the longer length of DOTs so much as the fact that so many skills have such different timers. Trying to juggle 5-6 wildly different timers is the issue.

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

I don't think that's what would happen. I think you'd just get more complicated rotations that have fewer spammable casts to make room for more DOT refreshs.

Maybe. But I would like to see a result where players need to uptime 2-3 short dots, spam, one or two long buffs and be able to use situational skills.

chessalavakia_ESO

Might that leave single target spammables in an awkward position?

auz

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

Could just put dot timers back to pre update 35. The game wasn't made any more accessible by the changes. If you want to hit spammable 15 times in row, you still can.

FluffyBird

Absolutely no

4-6 seconds is uncomfortably short even if you play on one bar, imo

INM

Didn't we had 6-8 seconds dots already? It was too much juggle for some folks. I think that 10 second timers are ideal, not too short and not too long for current encounters.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

FluffyBird wrote: »

4-6 seconds is uncomfortably short even if you play on one bar, imo

This is small compared to what? Or for what?

FluffyBird

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

4-6 seconds is uncomfortably short even if you play on one bar, imo

This is small compared to what? Or for what?

For applying dots and then doing other things. Casting, blocking, dodging, scratching my nose, doing mechanics. I don't find perfecting my timings enjoyable and would want a bit of freedom in my rotation.

Artim_X

ZOS needs to bring dots back from the abyss with ten second timers and make them tick once every second.

Turtle_Bot

DoT timers definitely need some work. But it would be better to have them line up closer to what they were before U35 where they all lined up roughly to 10, 15 or 20 seconds instead of reducing them down to roughly 5 seconds.

There're far too many balance issues with reducing the durations to such a short timer. Not to mention anyone that cannot perform the required APM for whatever reason will not be able to access a lot of end game content since the APM required to keep up an appropriate level of damage to complete it will be out of their reach.

I do agree that the current 20 second or longer timers do feel quite boring compared to the 10-20 second timers we used to have, however, they can still work as long as passives and types of abilities are appropriately considered (eg. dk passives and sorc daedric prey) so that people don't end up with 6, 8, 10, 12, 15, 18, 20, 25, 30, 32 and 60 second timers they need to keep track of all at once.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

FluffyBird wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

4-6 seconds is uncomfortably short even if you play on one bar, imo

This is small compared to what? Or for what?

For applying dots and then doing other things. Casting, blocking, dodging, scratching my nose, doing mechanics. I don't find perfecting my timings enjoyable and would want a bit of freedom in my rotation.

Maybe. But I think it can mostly depend on the damage numbers of the skills. Although this is actually true today, the damage is based on direct damage.

INM wrote: »

Didn't we had 6-8 seconds dots already? It was too much juggle for some folks. I think that 10 second timers are ideal, not too short and not too long for current encounters.

Yes it is. But they existed along with 10 and 12 second dots.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There're far too many balance issues with reducing the durations to such a short timer. Not to mention anyone that cannot perform the required APM for whatever reason will not be able to access a lot of end game content since the APM required to keep up an appropriate level of damage to complete it will be out of their reach.

Somehow I didn't think about that. But my idea is based mainly on the Oakensoul experience, which has been very well received by the community. At its core, this mythic just simplifies rotation by reducing the availability of skills.

Luede

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

There're far too many balance issues with reducing the durations to such a short timer. Not to mention anyone that cannot perform the required APM for whatever reason will not be able to access a lot of end game content since the APM required to keep up an appropriate level of damage to complete it will be out of their reach.

Somehow I didn't think about that. But my idea is based mainly on the Oakensoul experience, which has been very well received by the community. At its core, this mythic just simplifies rotation by reducing the availability of skills.

if you are bored just play again 2 bar builds

CGPsaint

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

This would essentially make it so that you would only be casting DOTs and would have no time for spammables. Overall, this would result in less button presses and a huge DPS loss. Hard pass for me.

FluffyBird

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Somehow I didn't think about that.

ZOS dev spotted!

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

CGPsaint wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

The idea is to cut down on the number of skills that need to be pressed and give the players more space.

This would essentially make it so that you would only be casting DOTs and would have no time for spammables. Overall, this would result in less button presses and a huge DPS loss. Hard pass for me.

Of course, such changes require rebalancing the values.

I just want to offer a vision where the combat system does not include using 10 skills and perfect uptime, but 5-6 skills. This, in my opinion now, should make the gameplay more convenient and more friendly to non-high-end players. But it will still reward the player's skill as upm and timing will be important.

boi_anachronism_

Absolutely no

I think this is not a great idea. As other have noted you will constantly be juggling dots plus when will you use your spammable?

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I think this is not a great idea. As other have noted you will constantly be juggling dots plus when will you use your spammable?

Why is it not obvious that this will depend on the balance? Nothing prevents you from using 10 dots now as well.

Luede

what you actually want is that ZOS adapts the skills to your 1 bar build, but this automatically makes 2 bar builds unplayable. since 2 bar builds are the normal setup, 1 bar builds have to adapt accordingly, not the other way around. find a setup that is fun and playable for you.

FluffyBird

Absolutely no

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I think this is not a great idea. As other have noted you will constantly be juggling dots plus when will you use your spammable?

Why is it not obvious that this will depend on the balance? Nothing prevents you from using 10 dots now as well.

Translation: "I have nothing to say to support my idea, so I'll juggle "obvious" and "depends" like you would juggle your dots if they were 5 seconds long"
Nothing prevents me from using 10 dots now, but also nothing forces me into pure dot-management if I want to keep my dots up.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

FluffyBird wrote: »

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I think this is not a great idea. As other have noted you will constantly be juggling dots plus when will you use your spammable?

Why is it not obvious that this will depend on the balance? Nothing prevents you from using 10 dots now as well.

Translation: "I have nothing to say to support my idea, so I'll juggle "obvious" and "depends" like you would juggle your dots if they were 5 seconds long"
Nothing prevents me from using 10 dots now, but also nothing forces me into pure dot-management if I want to keep my dots up.

Please do not put false meaning into my words, it is very insulting. I just see that I was not understood. I proposed a new vision, in my opinion more friendly to new players. I did not propose to reduce the time of the pillbox, let's leave everything else as it is.

I gave this as an example of how the balance and efficiency of the dot affects how effective the rotation of the dot alone is and we already had patches like that. I see no reason why reducing the number of dots used and timing them would result in a spin consisting of only dots.

Luede wrote: »

what you actually want is that ZOS adapts the skills to your 1 bar build, but this automatically makes 2 bar builds unplayable. since 2 bar builds are the normal setup, 1 bar builds have to adapt accordingly, not the other way around. find a setup that is fun and playable for you.

I don't have a problem with rotation, but yes you seem to be right that switching bars with short dots will become extremely annoying and people will tend to set all the damage of the skill to one bar.

BretonMage

10-12 seconds was absolutely fine pre-U35. That's like once per rotation, isn't it? There was nothing wrong with what we had before.

M0ntie

Absolutely no

The game is built around having 2 bars. You can’t keep all your dots up if they only last 5 or 6 secs. When playing a full dps in a trial it is usual to have about 8 or 9 damage skills that need to be kept up which is impossible if they only last 5-6 secs.

Parasaurolophus

This is an interesting idea and I would like to test it

M0ntie wrote: »

The game is built around having 2 bars. You can’t keep all your dots up if they only last 5 or 6 secs. When playing a full dps in a trial it is usual to have about 8 or 9 damage skills that need to be kept up which is impossible if they only last 5-6 secs.

But you can rebalance the damage values so that a smaller amount of dots is normal.

FluffyBird

Absolutely no

2-3 ticks is not a dot. It can't fulfill the purpose of dot of just being left there to deal damage. It basically frees your hands for a couple more actions and sounds extremely annoying.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

But you can rebalance the damage values so that a smaller amount of dots is normal.

Would you mind providing examples of numbers and rotation please? Before and after your proposed change.

Edit to add: I'm viewing this problem as a casual solo player. 4-6 seconds won't be good for hanging out with Ulguna or slowly whittling down a strong enemy while dodging their attacks.

rexagamemnon

Or just throw out U35