Should our in-game achievements be visible on our Forum Accounts?

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

VaranisArano wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

A very valid point, viewable achievements might be a bit too heavy handed, perhaps viewable statistics would be a better tool. When I’m referring to achievements as a tool to indicate knowledge, I’m referring to the “time played” aspect of them.

You don’t have to be the best player on whatever platform you’re on to participate in a conversation, nobody wants that.

If they were to add a stat tracker that shows time played in each class, and time played in each form of content people recognize, that would be more than enough in my opinion, and would be much lighter handed, and less weaponizable.

I remind you that ZOS specifically sought out players who were experienced (and well-known) with their class in PVE and PVP to serve as Class Representatives...and recently ended that program. So as far as ZOS and the Devs go, this suggestion is not going to benefit them.

The only point of adding a Time Played per Class function is to allow forum posters to judge other posters' experience.

But is that an accurate picture?

Well, let's look at my /Played stats.

Dragonknight - 97 days
Sorcerer - 82 days
Warden - 26 days
Templar - 3 days
Nightblade - 2 days
Necromancer - 1 day

Heh, surely that'll tell you which classes I'm qualified to give feedback on, won't it?! I look like a regular expert on Dragonknights and Sorcs.

Well...let's look at what it doesn't tell you.

It doesn't tell you that my Dragonknight is a MagDK tank in PVE and a healer in PVP. I have one StamDK with only 1 day of /Played time on her.

It doesn't tell you that all of my Sorcs are PVE. My Stam Sorc DD has 60 days of /Played time, but she's also the character I farm Craglorn with. Most of the others are questing characters. So, uh, if you judge me by my stats, I look way overqualified to talk about Sorcs than I really am.

It won't tell you my Warden is a PVP StamWarden.

It'll tell you I don't have much experience playing as Templars, Nightblades, and Necromancers. It won't tell you most of my experience is fighting them in PVP. I tend not to participate in their balance discussions, unless I'm giving or getting advice about how not to die to them.

So it turns out that's not a very accurate picture at all.

I mean, there's a reason why ZOS started out recruiting very experienced players who were known to perform well at a variety of content for their Class Rep program. If you just look at Time /Played per Class, you're not getting a good picture of what experience players actually have.

Finally, I hope this goes to show why a frank and polite discussion will show you a poster's relevant experience far better than any linked stats can.

Agreed that just having a general time played wouldn’t benefit anything, I had also said in my post that having a “time played in _” would be beneficial too. An easy enough way to track this, would be dungeon clears and AvA kills per class.

Ragnarok0130 · December 2022

In Favor

I don't personally think this is needed, but given the binary choice you provided I went with show. I would rather have Steam achievements brought into the game now that we have AWA and everything isn't toon specific rather than showing something on the forums that really isn't needed.

wolfie1.0. · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

opalcity wrote: »

You say "not to discredit people" but this sounds exactly like what you're trying to do.

Now this sounds like gatekeeping.

If I have every single quest achievement in the game but none in veteran trials, should people know that especially If I’m on a forum talking about veteran trials? Especially when those uninformed voices have potential to change my content?

Nothing tells, like experience, and if you work hard for something, I believe you should be able to represent that.

Everything in the game is equal opportunity, it just takes the will to achieve it, and if you have 50 AvA kills total, and you’re complaining about Templars over-performing loudly, that should be public knowledge readily accessible.

I do see your point but the problem with this is that such an action would allow players to discredit what could be very reasonable and valid concerns over game play just because someone looked at your profile and said well you havn't done x yet so your opinion is invalid.

There is also a lack of point to adding it anyway. I completed some achievements back in vet level days and others just yesterday. The game has changed significantly in between. Just because I have an achievement doesn't equate to expertise or authority on a topic.

I know plenty of players that started playing well after me that have more achievements in certian areas than I do, yet I have played a very long time. Should my opinion be invalid or dismissed because I don't have an achievement? If I buy a carry for an achievement does that make me suddenly an expert?

peacenote · December 2022

Opposed

The thing is, it is not a problem if someone inexperienced makes an inaccurate comment on the forums to us, other members of the community. And the rest of us being able to see that person's achievements would not stop the inaccurate comments from being written.

It is ZOS that needs to know whether statements from the community make sense or not, if they are reading them to decide how to develop the game. Ideally they would play enough themselves to immediately know whether the feedback is valid, as many of us here do. But if not, they have access to our information already.

So I don't think this would be helpful or solve the real issue. It IS why I wish ZOS would release more comprehensive surveys more frequently, which they could link to our data points for better decision making.

ZOS_Icy · December 2022

Greetings, as we've removed a few non-constructive and baiting comments, please remember that while it’s all right to disagree or even debate with each other, provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding.

Bouldercleave · December 2022

Opposed

oldbobdude wrote: »

I’m not sure that achievements are an indicator of authority on the game.

[snip]

While I admire your commitment to this idea @The_Titan_Tim (shown by your defense of it), It doesn't look like the idea is gaining much ground. Too many roadblocks, loopholes, and possible toxicity in it.

[edited for bashing]

SerasWhip · December 2022

Opposed

hm, so you want to flex with your kewl achievements huh.

VaranisArano · December 2022

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

A very valid point, viewable achievements might be a bit too heavy handed, perhaps viewable statistics would be a better tool. When I’m referring to achievements as a tool to indicate knowledge, I’m referring to the “time played” aspect of them.

You don’t have to be the best player on whatever platform you’re on to participate in a conversation, nobody wants that.

If they were to add a stat tracker that shows time played in each class, and time played in each form of content people recognize, that would be more than enough in my opinion, and would be much lighter handed, and less weaponizable.

I remind you that ZOS specifically sought out players who were experienced (and well-known) with their class in PVE and PVP to serve as Class Representatives...and recently ended that program. So as far as ZOS and the Devs go, this suggestion is not going to benefit them.

The only point of adding a Time Played per Class function is to allow forum posters to judge other posters' experience.

But is that an accurate picture?

Well, let's look at my /Played stats.

Dragonknight - 97 days
Sorcerer - 82 days
Warden - 26 days
Templar - 3 days
Nightblade - 2 days
Necromancer - 1 day

Heh, surely that'll tell you which classes I'm qualified to give feedback on, won't it?! I look like a regular expert on Dragonknights and Sorcs.

Well...let's look at what it doesn't tell you.

It doesn't tell you that my Dragonknight is a MagDK tank in PVE and a healer in PVP. I have one StamDK with only 1 day of /Played time on her.

It doesn't tell you that all of my Sorcs are PVE. My Stam Sorc DD has 60 days of /Played time, but she's also the character I farm Craglorn with. Most of the others are questing characters. So, uh, if you judge me by my stats, I look way overqualified to talk about Sorcs than I really am.

It won't tell you my Warden is a PVP StamWarden.

It'll tell you I don't have much experience playing as Templars, Nightblades, and Necromancers. It won't tell you most of my experience is fighting them in PVP. I tend not to participate in their balance discussions, unless I'm giving or getting advice about how not to die to them.

So it turns out that's not a very accurate picture at all.

I mean, there's a reason why ZOS started out recruiting very experienced players who were known to perform well at a variety of content for their Class Rep program. If you just look at Time /Played per Class, you're not getting a good picture of what experience players actually have.

Finally, I hope this goes to show why a frank and polite discussion will show you a poster's relevant experience far better than any linked stats can.

Agreed that just having a general time played wouldn’t benefit anything, I had also said in my post that having a “time played in _” would be beneficial too. An easy enough way to track this, would be dungeon clears and AvA kills per class.

Okay, but what's that going to tell you?

It's going to tell you who runs Daily Random Dungeons, but not how good they are. It's not going to tell you who's a fake tank and who's real. Meanwhile players who complete dungeons and move on to other content like trials or PVP are going to have their experience underrepresented.

It's going to tell you who's killed a lot of players in PVP, which is sort of correlated with being good, but not always. I'm a PVP healer, so part of my experience would be very underrepresented by this stat. But on the other hand, I've played enough to hit Legate so I've racked enough enough kills/assists with siege equipment that I could wind up with a inflated count compared to a better, but newer player. Moreover, if I wanted to boost my kill count, I'd do better to play in Battlegrounds instead of Cyrodiil and Imperial City, and I'd look really good if I chose to play Deathmatch regardless of which mode I was in. Oh, and we'd have to exclude Dueling, because there's no way to exclude which players just farmed each other for the achievement...

I'm afraid I don't quite understand the merits of trying to boil down a poster's gameplay experience to handful of cherry-picked stats that are still extremely open to interpretation...when we could just discuss it.

Amottica · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

A very valid point, viewable achievements might be a bit too heavy handed, perhaps viewable statistics would be a better tool. When I’m referring to achievements as a tool to indicate knowledge, I’m referring to the “time played” aspect of them.

You don’t have to be the best player on whatever platform you’re on to participate in a conversation, nobody wants that.

If they were to add a stat tracker that shows time played in each class, and time played in each form of content people recognize, that would be more than enough in my opinion, and would be much lighter handed, and less weaponizable.

I remind you that ZOS specifically sought out players who were experienced (and well-known) with their class in PVE and PVP to serve as Class Representatives...and recently ended that program. So as far as ZOS and the Devs go, this suggestion is not going to benefit them.

The only point of adding a Time Played per Class function is to allow forum posters to judge other posters' experience.

But is that an accurate picture?

Well, let's look at my /Played stats.

Dragonknight - 97 days
Sorcerer - 82 days
Warden - 26 days
Templar - 3 days
Nightblade - 2 days
Necromancer - 1 day

Heh, surely that'll tell you which classes I'm qualified to give feedback on, won't it?! I look like a regular expert on Dragonknights and Sorcs.

Well...let's look at what it doesn't tell you.

It doesn't tell you that my Dragonknight is a MagDK tank in PVE and a healer in PVP. I have one StamDK with only 1 day of /Played time on her.

It doesn't tell you that all of my Sorcs are PVE. My Stam Sorc DD has 60 days of /Played time, but she's also the character I farm Craglorn with. Most of the others are questing characters. So, uh, if you judge me by my stats, I look way overqualified to talk about Sorcs than I really am.

It won't tell you my Warden is a PVP StamWarden.

It'll tell you I don't have much experience playing as Templars, Nightblades, and Necromancers. It won't tell you most of my experience is fighting them in PVP. I tend not to participate in their balance discussions, unless I'm giving or getting advice about how not to die to them.

So it turns out that's not a very accurate picture at all.

I mean, there's a reason why ZOS started out recruiting very experienced players who were known to perform well at a variety of content for their Class Rep program. If you just look at Time /Played per Class, you're not getting a good picture of what experience players actually have.

Finally, I hope this goes to show why a frank and polite discussion will show you a poster's relevant experience far better than any linked stats can.

Agreed that just having a general time played wouldn’t benefit anything, I had also said in my post that having a “time played in _” would be beneficial too. An easy enough way to track this, would be dungeon clears and AvA kills per class.

Which still overlooks the role, part of the argument that @VaranisArano put forth. A healer will have fewer kills than a DPS or tank in AvA, making that information specifically say healers are worthless.

Even the dungeon clears are not very valuable, as many dungeons are easy to clear. Then we have the game before everything was balanced to CP160 when many players obtained the triple achievements on vet DLC dungeons from gaming the old system by using a low-level player to lower the level of the dungeon and then replacing them.

There is no good way to do this.

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

Opposed

AvA kills per class is also a matter of time and lacks context. If I sit in a ball group as a NB; should I be held in higher opinion about NB ganking because of my kill count? If I sit in the back of a zerg and spam Radiant Oppression; should it be ok if I say "templar burst is fine?"

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

Elsonso wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

I feel the same about this as I do "examine character" in the game to see what gear they are wearing. Both will be used as weapons against people who have different opinions. We don't need more of that.

I have multiple accounts, play on on multiple platforms, and in both geographies, but only use the one forum account. How does that work?

When ZOS dropped AwA on us, I did *not* roll all my characters into my account wide achievements. My account achievements do not currently represent my progress in the game.

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

I skimmed past this earlier, is “Examine Character” a feature on PC? Perhaps through a mod? That would be an amazing addition too.

As someone who remembers the days of players running around Cyrodiil with every single mundus stone on, it would be nice to be able to see character stat screens as well as gear equipped.

VaranisArano · December 2022

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

I feel the same about this as I do "examine character" in the game to see what gear they are wearing. Both will be used as weapons against people who have different opinions. We don't need more of that.

I have multiple accounts, play on on multiple platforms, and in both geographies, but only use the one forum account. How does that work?

When ZOS dropped AwA on us, I did *not* roll all my characters into my account wide achievements. My account achievements do not currently represent my progress in the game.

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

I skimmed past this earlier, is “Examine Character” a feature on PC? Perhaps through a mod? That would be an amazing addition too.

As someone who remembers the days of players running around Cyrodiil with every single mundus stone on, it would be nice to be able to see character stat screens as well as gear equipped.

There's no way to see gear. In fact, theorycrafters have generally opposed this on the grounds that they put in the time and effort to theorycraft themselves an effective build, so a random player shouldn't be able to steal their build at a glance. You can sometimes figure out their sets based on the procs or effects you see.

In addition, there's all sorts of issues with examining player gear. It makes sense in Trials guilds where everyone generally cooperates to organize their sets, but there's a lot of concerns about gatekeepers in content like dungeons/normal trials where it's much less necessary to wear the "meta" gear. In PVP , players can be very toxic to other players wearing the latest "cheese" sets too.

As for players cheating in Cyrodiil, I suspect you'll have better luck just reporting players you suspect of cheating rather than expecting to get a look at our full character sheet. I see that Srendarr's is still recommended for players wanting to see their buffs and enemy debuffs. https://www.esoui.com/downloads/info655-Srendarr-AuraBuffampDebuffTracker.html

My experience with an "Examine Player' option is Warframe. That game has a wide variety of warframes and weapons with which to complete the content. That being said, I and other players have definitely gotten comments about using off-meta picks, even if our choice wasn't causing problems.

It's not that "Examine Player" is always toxic. But it can be, and generally you can get the build information you seek by asking politely.

TaSheen · December 2022

Opposed

VaranisArano wrote: »

My experience with an "Examine Player' option is Warframe. That game has a wide variety of warframes and weapons with which to complete the content. That being said, I and other players have definitely gotten comments about using off-meta pics, even if our choice wasn't causing problems.

It's not that "Examine Player" is always toxic. But it can be, and generally you can get the build information you seek by asking politely.

In both WoW and RIFT, it was always an issue - people would accost one to get really nasty and (on many occasions) quite foul-mouthed, even if one was just standing around in a city doing nothing much. The truly strange part was that these cretins came out of the woodwork - it's not as if I (or others in my guilds) were actively looking for groups (we had our own family and friends only guilds - and groups for content!)

I've never been able to figure out that sort of actions. I'd really rather not see "gear inspection" happen in ESO....

ghost_bg_ESO · December 2022

Just some thoughts.

So, even with achievements shown:
-Someone: "you can't post opinion for X content because you didn't played it"
-Someone else: "i may be farming mats all day, but i'm paying and my opinion matters"
(and it goes until moderator steps in - nothing more different than now)

BTW this about achievements on a forum deliberately keeping account logins and forum logins separated for security reasons and having complicated way to get access to the forum?... i doubt Zeni has intention to mess them in one place...

I don't PvP, so can't say anything about achievements there.
But PvE - carry runs, fake roles, soling group dungeons, about the last one, how me, that busted my lower back to do some vet dungeons solo will be distinguished from someone who finally did same dungeon without group kicking him out ("i'm just for that helmet for a build").

How will be compared achievements between PC and consoles (/cough: addons)...

(it is a bit late here - my brain can do that much)

VaranisArano · December 2022

TaSheen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

My experience with an "Examine Player' option is Warframe. That game has a wide variety of warframes and weapons with which to complete the content. That being said, I and other players have definitely gotten comments about using off-meta pics, even if our choice wasn't causing problems.

It's not that "Examine Player" is always toxic. But it can be, and generally you can get the build information you seek by asking politely.

In both WoW and RIFT, it was always an issue - people would accost one to get really nasty and (on many occasions) quite foul-mouthed, even if one was just standing around in a city doing nothing much. The truly strange part was that these cretins came out of the woodwork - it's not as if I (or others in my guilds) were actively looking for groups (we had our own family and friends only guilds - and groups for content!)

I've never been able to figure out that sort of actions. I'd really rather not see "gear inspection" happen in ESO....

Yeah.

I even get the judgment to some extent. Maybe not the going on about it to random players, but I've definitely side-eyed some of my teammates when I looked at their loadout. Sometimes it wasn't a problem at all during the mission. Sometimes they were the weakest link. And sometimes they were the weakest link but it didn't end up mattering because we could cover for them just fine.

But my general rule of thumb is that I don't comment on their build unless it's congrats for really kicking butt or they ask for help, and I'm happy to chat about my builds if they ask.

And on the positive side, Warframe has a lot of community-made builds that are widely accessible for players to look at for inspiration.

Overall, I think ESO tells us about the right amount of info for group content. Organized groups can always ask for more detailed builds. But for a random dungeon, all I really need to know is Role, Class, and CP/Level to get a snapshot of what to expect from the group, and then we'll find out their capability as we do the dungeon.

TaSheen · December 2022

Opposed

VaranisArano wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

My experience with an "Examine Player' option is Warframe. That game has a wide variety of warframes and weapons with which to complete the content. That being said, I and other players have definitely gotten comments about using off-meta pics, even if our choice wasn't causing problems.

It's not that "Examine Player" is always toxic. But it can be, and generally you can get the build information you seek by asking politely.

In both WoW and RIFT, it was always an issue - people would accost one to get really nasty and (on many occasions) quite foul-mouthed, even if one was just standing around in a city doing nothing much. The truly strange part was that these cretins came out of the woodwork - it's not as if I (or others in my guilds) were actively looking for groups (we had our own family and friends only guilds - and groups for content!)

I've never been able to figure out that sort of actions. I'd really rather not see "gear inspection" happen in ESO....

Yeah.

I even get the judgment to some extent. Maybe not the going on about it to random players, but I've definitely side-eyed some of my teammates when I looked at their loadout. Sometimes it wasn't a problem at all during the mission. Sometimes they were the weakest link. And sometimes they were the weakest link but it didn't end up mattering because we could cover for them just fine.

But my general rule of thumb is that I don't comment on their build unless it's congrats for really kicking butt or they ask for help, and I'm happy to chat about my builds if they ask.

And on the positive side, Warframe has a lot of community-made builds that are widely accessible for players to look at for inspiration.

Overall, I think ESO tells us about the right amount of info for group content. Organized groups can always ask for more detailed builds. But for a random dungeon, all I really need to know is Role, Class, and CP/Level to get a snapshot of what to expect from the group, and then we'll find out their capability as we do the dungeon.

And that's entirely up front and certainly not only understandable, but actually kind. Now, I can say with perfect truth that had I or any of my guild members been actively looking for PUGs or prog groups, then such inspection would have been warranted, and accepted, whether kind or not. But we were "self sufficient" for raiding.... so people being nasty for no reason at all got all of us wondering what was really going on there.

[Edit for typos]

FeedbackOnly · December 2022

Opposed

So many reasons it would be a bad idea

VaranisArano · December 2022

TaSheen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

My experience with an "Examine Player' option is Warframe. That game has a wide variety of warframes and weapons with which to complete the content. That being said, I and other players have definitely gotten comments about using off-meta pics, even if our choice wasn't causing problems.

It's not that "Examine Player" is always toxic. But it can be, and generally you can get the build information you seek by asking politely.

In both WoW and RIFT, it was always an issue - people would accost one to get really nasty and (on many occasions) quite foul-mouthed, even if one was just standing around in a city doing nothing much. The truly strange part was that these cretins came out of the woodwork - it's not as if I (or others in my guilds) were actively looking for groups (we had our own family and friends only guilds - and groups for content!)

I've never been able to figure out that sort of actions. I'd really rather not see "gear inspection" happen in ESO....

Yeah.

I even get the judgment to some extent. Maybe not the going on about it to random players, but I've definitely side-eyed some of my teammates when I looked at their loadout. Sometimes it wasn't a problem at all during the mission. Sometimes they were the weakest link. And sometimes they were the weakest link but it didn't end up mattering because we could cover for them just fine.

But my general rule of thumb is that I don't comment on their build unless it's congrats for really kicking butt or they ask for help, and I'm happy to chat about my builds if they ask.

And on the positive side, Warframe has a lot of community-made builds that are widely accessible for players to look at for inspiration.

Overall, I think ESO tells us about the right amount of info for group content. Organized groups can always ask for more detailed builds. But for a random dungeon, all I really need to know is Role, Class, and CP/Level to get a snapshot of what to expect from the group, and then we'll find out their capability as we do the dungeon.

And that's entirely up front and certainly not only understandable, but actually kind. Now, I can say with perfect truth that had I or any of my guild members been actively looking for PUGs or prog groups, then such inspection would have been warranted, and accepted, whether kind or not. But we were "self sufficient" for raiding.... so people being nasty for no reason at all got all of us wondering what was really going on there.

[Edit for typos]

Yep. As you say, the problem isn't that everyone misuses the Examine Player function, but rather that a certain segment of the population is going to misuse it to judge players when it literally doesn't matter. Warframe's Eidolon hunting community has some very chill, elite hunters, but as a whole, it's got a reputation for extreme toxicity towards players who don't bring the meta builds or use meta tactics. I've seen it even in PUG hunts, which is always ridiculous and sometimes hilarious when the highest DPS player is like "chill, man, you queued with randoms" to the complainer.

Nobody really wants that sort of obnoxiousness in their community, and especially not the reasonable end game players who have to combat that reputation for toxic elitism and gatekeeping while also trying to get everyone on the same page for the content that does require organized builds. Sure, in some games those bad experiences are just "the cost of doing business," but I'd rather not see it in ESO.

TaSheen · December 2022

Opposed

VaranisArano wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

My experience with an "Examine Player' option is Warframe. That game has a wide variety of warframes and weapons with which to complete the content. That being said, I and other players have definitely gotten comments about using off-meta pics, even if our choice wasn't causing problems.

It's not that "Examine Player" is always toxic. But it can be, and generally you can get the build information you seek by asking politely.

In both WoW and RIFT, it was always an issue - people would accost one to get really nasty and (on many occasions) quite foul-mouthed, even if one was just standing around in a city doing nothing much. The truly strange part was that these cretins came out of the woodwork - it's not as if I (or others in my guilds) were actively looking for groups (we had our own family and friends only guilds - and groups for content!)

I've never been able to figure out that sort of actions. I'd really rather not see "gear inspection" happen in ESO....

Yeah.

I even get the judgment to some extent. Maybe not the going on about it to random players, but I've definitely side-eyed some of my teammates when I looked at their loadout. Sometimes it wasn't a problem at all during the mission. Sometimes they were the weakest link. And sometimes they were the weakest link but it didn't end up mattering because we could cover for them just fine.

But my general rule of thumb is that I don't comment on their build unless it's congrats for really kicking butt or they ask for help, and I'm happy to chat about my builds if they ask.

And on the positive side, Warframe has a lot of community-made builds that are widely accessible for players to look at for inspiration.

Overall, I think ESO tells us about the right amount of info for group content. Organized groups can always ask for more detailed builds. But for a random dungeon, all I really need to know is Role, Class, and CP/Level to get a snapshot of what to expect from the group, and then we'll find out their capability as we do the dungeon.

And that's entirely up front and certainly not only understandable, but actually kind. Now, I can say with perfect truth that had I or any of my guild members been actively looking for PUGs or prog groups, then such inspection would have been warranted, and accepted, whether kind or not. But we were "self sufficient" for raiding.... so people being nasty for no reason at all got all of us wondering what was really going on there.

[Edit for typos]

Yep. As you say, the problem isn't that everyone misuses the Examine Player function, but rather that a certain segment of the population is going to misuse it to judge players when it literally doesn't matter. Warframe's Eidolon hunting community has some very chill, elite hunters, but as a whole, it's got a reputation for extreme toxicity towards players who don't bring the meta builds or use meta tactics. I've seen it even in PUG hunts, which is always ridiculous and sometimes hilarious when the highest DPS player is like "chill, man, you queued with randoms" to the complainer.

Nobody really wants that sort of obnoxiousness in their community, and especially not the reasonable end game players who have to combat that reputation for toxic elitism and gatekeeping while also trying to get everyone on the same page for the content that does require organized builds. Sure, in some games those bad experiences are just "the cost of doing business," but I'd rather not see it in ESO.

Absolutely agree. Same page here.

TheImperfect · December 2022

Maybe, but there's a lot of achievements, might be a lot to fit in.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

TheImperfect wrote: »

Maybe, but there's a lot of achievements, might be a lot to fit in.

That is a very good point, it would be difficult to fish through relevant ones because of that fact.

lemonizzle · December 2022

Opposed

This idea went out the window the second a fully pre-paid achievement was "earned" in-game. Veteran endtrial? Bought. The gold? Bots. The Emperor title? Rigged.
Is there a single thing left in the game that can only be earned honestly by yourself, by your own merit? I can't think of one, and it would render achievement-based judgement pointless from the start.

JKorr · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

I feel the same about this as I do "examine character" in the game to see what gear they are wearing. Both will be used as weapons against people who have different opinions. We don't need more of that.

I have multiple accounts, play on on multiple platforms, and in both geographies, but only use the one forum account. How does that work?

When ZOS dropped AwA on us, I did *not* roll all my characters into my account wide achievements. My account achievements do not currently represent my progress in the game.

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

I skimmed past this earlier, is “Examine Character” a feature on PC? Perhaps through a mod? That would be an amazing addition too.

As someone who remembers the days of players running around Cyrodiil with every single mundus stone on, it would be nice to be able to see character stat screens as well as gear equipped.

Do a search here in the forum for "inspect character". It is a bad idea.

DinoZavr · December 2022

Opposed

lemonizzle wrote: »

Is there a single thing left in the game that can only be earned honestly by yourself, by your own merit? I can't think of one..

Veteran Maelstrom and Vateshran.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

DinoZavr wrote: »

lemonizzle wrote: »

Is there a single thing left in the game that can only be earned honestly by yourself, by your own merit? I can't think of one..

Veteran Maelstrom and Vateshran.

As it’s against the terms of use for sharing accounts while paying for content clears you’re active in isn’t, I have to agree with Dino on this one.

Then you have to take into consideration that not all achievements are skill based… some are effort based and can only be done by playing a lot, Master Angler for example.

If there was a visible Master Angler in the forums talking about how atrociously long it takes to get the title, and how boring and unrewarding fishing is for players, it would give more credence to the point, helping to prove to ZOS that people are asking for change from experience.

It’s not that I myself won’t respect your opinion if you don’t have a huge list of achievements, it’s that when every person you run into are shouting at the development team on a topic, and we are all shouting for different things, nothing gets done as it would be better for them to do nothing and semi irritate all parties, instead of isolating one.

There’s too much division and the people that could voice positive change have no means of standing out, other than attempting the content creator route, but let’s face it… when it would be more successful elsewhere, why invest?

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

JKorr wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

I feel the same about this as I do "examine character" in the game to see what gear they are wearing. Both will be used as weapons against people who have different opinions. We don't need more of that.

I have multiple accounts, play on on multiple platforms, and in both geographies, but only use the one forum account. How does that work?

When ZOS dropped AwA on us, I did *not* roll all my characters into my account wide achievements. My account achievements do not currently represent my progress in the game.

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

I skimmed past this earlier, is “Examine Character” a feature on PC? Perhaps through a mod? That would be an amazing addition too.

As someone who remembers the days of players running around Cyrodiil with every single mundus stone on, it would be nice to be able to see character stat screens as well as gear equipped.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

I feel the same about this as I do "examine character" in the game to see what gear they are wearing. Both will be used as weapons against people who have different opinions. We don't need more of that.

I have multiple accounts, play on on multiple platforms, and in both geographies, but only use the one forum account. How does that work?

When ZOS dropped AwA on us, I did *not* roll all my characters into my account wide achievements. My account achievements do not currently represent my progress in the game.

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

I skimmed past this earlier, is “Examine Character” a feature on PC? Perhaps through a mod? That would be an amazing addition too.

As someone who remembers the days of players running around Cyrodiil with every single mundus stone on, it would be nice to be able to see character stat screens as well as gear equipped.

Do a search here in the forum for "inspect character". It is a bad idea.

I’ll check it out, thanks for the suggestion.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

I don't personally think this is needed, but given the binary choice you provided I went with show. I would rather have Steam achievements brought into the game now that we have AWA and everything isn't toon specific rather than showing something on the forums that really isn't needed.

Having an external source for visible stats would be fine, my only issue with Steam is that this game is broken up into multiple different platforms, so as an Xbox player myself, I would have no Steam achievements and with you being vice versa.

VaranisArano · December 2022

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

DinoZavr wrote: »

lemonizzle wrote: »

Is there a single thing left in the game that can only be earned honestly by yourself, by your own merit? I can't think of one..

Veteran Maelstrom and Vateshran.

As it’s against the terms of use for sharing accounts while paying for content clears you’re active in isn’t, I have to agree with Dino on this one.

Then you have to take into consideration that not all achievements are skill based… some are effort based and can only be done by playing a lot, Master Angler for example.

If there was a visible Master Angler in the forums talking about how atrociously long it takes to get the title, and how boring and unrewarding fishing is for players, it would give more credence to the point, helping to prove to ZOS that people are asking for change from experience.

It’s not that I myself won’t respect your opinion if you don’t have a huge list of achievements, it’s that when every person you run into are shouting at the development team on a topic, and we are all shouting for different things, nothing gets done as it would be better for them to do nothing and semi irritate all parties, instead of isolating one.

There’s too much division and the people that could voice positive change have no means of standing out, other than attempting the content creator route, but let’s face it… when it would be more successful elsewhere, why invest?

So you really suggest that in order to talk about fishing balance someone needs to have the Master Angler achievement prominently displayed on their forum profile? Every single player in ESO can fish. It's not like you have to amass zones worth of experience to share your opinion.

I mean, Master Angler is my favorite title, but that's because it's the one that got me into Cyrodiil as a PVE-only player otherwise.

And the people that could voice positive change don't have trouble standing out.

They are known experts at that gameplay. See the Class Rep program or the well-know endgame guilds. During the U35 PTS, the endgame players offering feedback were frequently citing their recorded sessions. The end game PVE and PVP community is small and these are known players. Note that during U35, ZOS was watching on the guild discords, so one doesn't necessarily need to be a content creator.
They back up their arguments with verifiable data, not just anecdotes and opinions. Typically, the solid balance posts will include DPS parses or references to recorded runs. To bring up a non-endgame example, look at someone like tmbrinks who meticulously tracks their crafting writ results with years of data with which to back up their expertise.

Example of the above: You brought up Master Angler. Here's a expert Master Angler showing up with the data in support of the Artaeum Fishing Bowl prior to AWA: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456559/30-master-anglers-proof-that-the-artaeum-pickled-fish-bowl-works/p1

Please note that just because those players stand out does NOT mean that ZOS will listen. Remember that the Class Representatives argued against several of ZOS' changes throughout the years to no avail, and these were the players that ZOS handpicked to advise them!

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, but it's starting to sound like you fear your feedback isn't standing out without other posters/the Devs being able to see your stats at a glance.

I'd say two things to that.

1. ZOS is gonna do what ZOS wants to do, no matter how much of an expert you are or how much data you provide. See U35. See Scalebreaker and Dragonhold before that. See Murkmire. See numerous other examples of ZOS not following the detailed, data-driven feedback of expert players, including the Class Reps they handpicked to advise them. It's so tempting to hope that you can make a difference, but the Devs are going to do what they want.

2. Your list of achievements aren't going to make you stand out on the forums absent a reputation as an expert player/poster. I say that knowing my achievements wouldn't stand out much from the general PVE/PVP population either. If you want your feedback to stand out from the crowd of complainers, during U35 PTS, ZOS told us they wanted data-driven feedback. That's a fantastic way to establish yourself as an expert provided you can gather the data and present it in an accessible form to support your arguments.

DreamyLu · December 2022

Opposed

I don't want to share my data.

For me personally, the reason given to justify forcing others to share their data doesn't make sense. It's not because you lack the experience on something that you're not allowed to have an opinion. The only difference is, that depending on the subject, someone lacking the experience will have difficulty to follow the debate once it's going deeper into technical details.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

VaranisArano wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting this, but it's starting to sound like you fear your feedback isn't standing out without other posters/the Devs being able to see your stats at a glance.

No… I haven’t provided enough feedback on these forums about things I would like changed to know whether or not my opinions make a difference yet as I just recently got involved, but I have been directed here for patch notes and hot topics that get brought up from time to time.

For context, my main class has been Templar since I started playing this game back in 2015, over time I have mastered all of the other classes and acquired every non-DLC achievement in the game.

Back in 2015 up to early 2017 it was one of the worst end-game classes you could play, the only class scoring lower than Templar in veteran Maelstrom Arena was a Dragonknight.(lol)

What’s driven me to these forums, to contribute my voice, would have to be these insane changes that have been happening of late, absolutely gutting the class.

Dark Flare hits for less damage than an off-balance proc’ing Dizzying Swing even though they have the same cast time and Dark Flare is interruptible and Defile is useless.

Puncturing Sweeps is laughable now, heals off of its damage, those heals got nerfed a long time ago, now its damage got ripped away so the heal has no damage to build it up, so the obvious morph choice would be Biting Jabs… yet that also does no damage.

Power of the Light hits less hard than Haunting Curse, yet has a pre-requisite to its own damage, being a buildup of other damage.

With the introduction of the Elemental Susceptibility change, Extended Ritual lost 3 purges from its extremely high cost to cast where Ele costs nothing… literally.

Blazing Shield has never been the same since the first nerfs that ability received years ago, you will never see that ability on anything other than a build designed specifically for it…

The class only has Radiant Oppression now and I promise that the ability is getting nerfed very soon. All I hear from 7 Well-Fitted roll dodge spammers is how overpowered my BowPlar is with its “jesus beam.” Which is a clear as day indicator.

We need better advocates and hopefully I can help contribute my voice into these posts, pushing for positive change that doesn’t isolate 1/6th of the playerbase.