Should our in-game achievements be visible on our Forum Accounts?

heaven13 · December 2022

Opposed

There seem to be two different sentiments you've got going on here.

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

and

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

What happened to pride in accomplishment?

There's nothing wrong with the latter and some people, like myself, do post things we've accomplished in our signatures. But the former is absolutely an attempt to discredit people's opinions; if they don't have certain achievements or a certain amount of time spent in a certain activity, they don't matter. Let's not accept this level of toxicity.

heaven13 · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Here is a simple example.

I'm in a guild, that I love being in the people are great, that has a level / tier system and requirement for trials. They run a weekly Vet SS. They have that has a level 2 trial. I'm like 2 points short of being level 2. I've done Vet VSS HM though, but even with that "achievement" I'm blocked from joining this trial.

Achievements mean nothing ultimately on even skill for the game. Bang your head against them long enough and even average players will get basically everyone in the game. Want to view other people's acchievements to see if they are "worthy" to talk on a topic is just ego stroking at best.

Then you’re in a toxic guild, idk what to tell you.
I don’t even raid, but because I’m a well enough known player I got pulled into a Gryphon Heart prog and got to Exe with 36 vitality for someone else to drop an ice in the group.

It’s not an ego stroke, because at the end of the day, how can I expect you to respect my content when you haven’t even played it?

If you had achievements leading up to one we were debating, and you were actively working towards the one on topic, you would have a stake in the conversation, nobody would try to disregard you. It’s the guy with 10,000 hours in Cyrodiil that has completed only 23 veteran dungeons telling other people that Sorcerer pet builds don’t do enough damage for trifectas that would get shut down.

It would help identify trolls.

What if someone has every dungeon trifecta in the game but did them all as a Templar and argues that Sorc pet builds don't do enough damage? Should they be more credible now that we have AwA? Because surely someone who solely plays one build absolutely knows how the rest work intuitively.

This is why the idea is inherently bad. Having achievements doesn't automatically qualify someone's opinion, just like not having a particular achievement doesn't mean a person can't be well informed. There's so many factors that boiling people down to their achievements to determine whether they should be allowed to have an opinion or not is pretty much the definition of gatekeeping.

Hapexamendios · December 2022

Opposed

Nobody's business

Dr_Con · December 2022

Opposed

Our support center shouldn't list in-game tickets with forum warns, and yet they do. Forum titles/achievements should be awarded for participation in events from the forums tbh, manually added.

TechMaybeHic · December 2022

Opposed

I'm pretty sure devs could find out easily enough what a poster has done if they REALLY wanted to. (They don't) Worrying about it as another player could only truly serve one toxic purpose. Most already know each other in elite circles, or even outside of that in their communities they play

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If you had achievements leading up to one we were debating, and you were actively working towards the one on topic, you would have a stake in the conversation, nobody would try to disregard you. It’s the guy with 10,000 hours in Cyrodiil that has completed only 23 veteran dungeons telling other people that Sorcerer pet builds don’t do enough damage for trifectas that would get shut down.

It would help identify trolls.

Trolls? Someone isn't a troll because they are a PvPer struggling to do vet pve content. This is exactly what I mean about the kind of thing that would happen though. The purpose of a system like this one is to try to undermine an argument by discrediting the user rather than the logic of the argument.

If the argument is sound, then it is sound regardless of who it is coming from.

If it is not sound, then the would be profile snoop should be capable of defeating it by discrediting the argument. If they cannot do that, then their counter argument is weak. And they don't deserve a pass for weak reasoning because they have some gameplay achievement.

By troll, I’m referring to the guy who is pushing for a buff to something he knows performs well, in the hopes that his favorite thing becomes easy street, it happens more often than you’re probably aware, where people point out a “shortcoming” in a particular area, citing a part of the game they know nothing about, with little context, speaking loud enough that the echo chamber echoes back, and we’re left with an unbelievably broken kit like Warden’s 10% damage increase w/an Ice Staff.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

@The_Titan_Tim Wow, you are really passionate about it. I can respect that. And I also get where you are coming from. I'd like to know too whether someone is knowledgeable or just full of... ahm... himself. 😉
But a good argument is easily recognisable by its strength, not the person who made it. You have to use your own brain though. What you are seeking essentially is authority authentification. Again, I totally get that.

If someone doesn't recognise my one of my arguments and just starts writing random stuff, that is vaguely connected to the OP's or my topic, I will scroll down and ignore them. But that is my decision. And how I personally approach a discussion about fictional problems in a virtual existence. 😅

I find the idea of achievements being visible to be interesting, made the poll while I was half asleep and have just been rolling with it to be honest, seems like a strong topic for people.

I don’t see it becoming a reality, there’s too much push-back and that’s fine. It’s good to see people finally uniting for something.

Blood_again · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

By troll, I’m referring to the guy who is pushing for a buff to something he knows performs well, in the hopes that his favorite thing becomes easy street, it happens more often than you’re probably aware, where people point out a “shortcoming” in a particular area, citing a part of the game they know nothing about, with little context, speaking loud enough that the echo chamber echoes back, and we’re left with an unbelievably broken kit like Warden’s 10% damage increase w/an Ice Staff.

Please could you give some detail how it works?
Gamedevs just listen to those who you named "trolls" on forum and change the game content according to it? Some samples?

spartaxoxo · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

If you had achievements leading up to one we were debating, and you were actively working towards the one on topic, you would have a stake in the conversation, nobody would try to disregard you. It’s the guy with 10,000 hours in Cyrodiil that has completed only 23 veteran dungeons telling other people that Sorcerer pet builds don’t do enough damage for trifectas that would get shut down.

It would help identify trolls.

Trolls? Someone isn't a troll because they are a PvPer struggling to do vet pve content. This is exactly what I mean about the kind of thing that would happen though. The purpose of a system like this one is to try to undermine an argument by discrediting the user rather than the logic of the argument.

If the argument is sound, then it is sound regardless of who it is coming from.

If it is not sound, then the would be profile snoop should be capable of defeating it by discrediting the argument. If they cannot do that, then their counter argument is weak. And they don't deserve a pass for weak reasoning because they have some gameplay achievement.

By troll, I’m referring to the guy who is pushing for a buff to something he knows performs well, in the hopes that his favorite thing becomes easy street, it happens more often than you’re probably aware, where people point out a “shortcoming” in a particular area, citing a part of the game they know nothing about, with little context, speaking loud enough that the echo chamber echoes back, and we’re left with an unbelievably broken kit like Warden’s 10% damage increase w/an Ice Staff.

Now this description uses assigning ulterior motives to someone for what they what they are posting, based off their gameplay achievements as some sort of benefit.

No it doesn't follow that a PVP player who does well in PvP, but poorly in PvE, is only making the suggesting to making themselves overpowered in PvP. Or Vice Versa.

The only thing you can tell from an achievement is that a person has the achievement. Players are not game designers and beating vet content doesn't make someone an expert in game design. Discrediting other players based off their achievements in game does nothing to service good argumentation, all it does is encourage finger pointing and making assumptions about people who disagree.

Cazador · December 2022

Opposed

Absolutely not. If that were the case then people with certain select achievements would act like their opinion was more valid.

CrashTest · December 2022

Opposed

I understand the OP's point that ZOS will ruin your fav thing in the game based on the input of customers who don't experience or have interest in your fav thing, yet they so aggressively comment on and against your fav thing. I share OP's concern, but then I remember ZOS doesn't listen to any of us.

Having said that, I voted no bc:

Not everyone's forum acct is tied to their main game acct.
PvE achvs can be bought or a scenario that happens more often is your guild and buddies carried your dead weight.
PvP achvs aren't a measure of experience or skill. Any clueless potato can get them by joining a Cyro zerg or semi afk in bg. I know this bc I was that clueless Cyro potato getting Cyro PvP achvs, but I didn't know jack about PvP. I even almost accidentally got emp once when campaign flipped and I was just capping rss for AP and to level my Alliance War skill line.

SilverBride · December 2022

Opposed

Another thing to consider is that the forums don't require a poster to be actively playing to post. So a player may have the "right" achievement for the topic they are discussing but may not have logged in for a year or two. This is a bigger indicator on how accurate a player's view of the current state of the game is than an achievement.

heaven13 · December 2022

Opposed

Blood_again wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

By troll, I’m referring to the guy who is pushing for a buff to something he knows performs well, in the hopes that his favorite thing becomes easy street, it happens more often than you’re probably aware, where people point out a “shortcoming” in a particular area, citing a part of the game they know nothing about, with little context, speaking loud enough that the echo chamber echoes back, and we’re left with an unbelievably broken kit like Warden’s 10% damage increase w/an Ice Staff.

Please could you give some detail how it works?
Gamedevs just listen to those who you named "trolls" on forum and change the game content according to it? Some samples?

Based on the warden reference, I have a pretty good idea of what is being alluded to, however, I think most forum posters who were passionate about Frost Warden viability were directly opposed to tying their damage to ice staves. ZoS does what ZoS wants to do; sometimes they spin it as a "omg this is what everyone asked for, aren't you so happy" but even then they often miss the mark of what people actually wanted. Just because a few passionate people brought up something in lines to something ZoS did doesn't mean there is a direct correlation behind why the thing actually happened.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

CrashTest wrote: »

I understand the OP's point that ZOS will ruin your fav thing in the game based on the input of customers who don't experience or have interest in your fav thing, yet they so aggressively comment on and against your fav thing. I share OP's concern, but then I remember ZOS doesn't listen to any of us.

Having said that, I voted no bc:
Not everyone's forum acct is tied to their main game acct.

PvE achvs can be bought or a scenario that happens more often is your guild and buddies carried your dead weight.

PvP achvs aren't a measure of experience or skill. Any clueless potato can get them by joining a Cyro zerg or semi afk in bg. I know this bc I was that clueless Cyro potato getting Cyro PvP achvs, but I didn't know jack about PvP. I even almost accidentally got emp once when campaign flipped and I was just capping rss for AP and to level my Alliance War skill line.

Respectable stance, one major draw, and I mentioned it earlier, is the censorship of passionate forum goers by ZOS, forcing people to make new accounts to stay connected.

I had mentioned quantity over quality in terms of PvE achievements earlier.

I’m 100% for ranked PvP and associated achievements that mean something. Tales of Tribute has it, so I can’t quite understand why it’s nowhere else.

kargen27 · December 2022

Opposed

I've read the entire thread and decided to frame my response around:

"Yeah… unfortunately. There have been quite a few people talking about Veteran Overland and questing changes too, that haven’t even completed the main storyline yet."

If a person says they feel the story isn't compelling because there is a lack of difficulty maybe they've not finished the main story because of the concerns they present. If they ask for a more difficult level and say they would be more apt to finish the story lines if there was a vet mode that is a valid opinion. I don't agree that overland needs a vet mode but that shouldn't diminish the opinions of players that do.

If players argue there is to big a skill gap required between normal and vet DLC dungeons it shouldn't matter if they have completed vet dungeons or not. Take the message as presented and respond accordingly.

If a player says worms for fishing are harder to find than any of the other baits (they are) and asks for another source of worms they shouldn't be dismissed because they don't have the Master Fisher achievement. The opinion of a player with that achievement shouldn't have any more influence than a player without.

I don't tell people who want a central auction house and admit to not participating in the system we have now that their opinions are not valid. I do tell them a central auction house in my opinion would be bad for the game and I explain why I think that. If they say they don't want to pay dues I point out many guilds get traders without requiring dues. If they say they don't have room for another guild or don't want to join a guild not much can be said in response. I point out many people do enjoy it and there is no reason in my eyes to scrap what we got.

Point is whether people have finished content or not we should judge their opinions on their opinions and that alone.

Carcamongus · December 2022

Opposed

Our achievements can't be seen by others in game, except for Alliance War rank and whatever cosmetic/title we choose to display, so I see no reason why should they be visible here. People will discuss things about which they have little clue in any medium, but using achievements to counter their arguments would render debates even more toxic. We need civilized discussions, not intrusive methods to rate players.

Paralyse · December 2022

Opposed

Consider this: the fact that I haven't done something doesn't mean that I don't know anything about it. Shockingly enough, you can actually have an intelligent conversation or have an opinion about something without having any actual experience.

OP seems to think that if you've never done something you're not worthy of being allowed to talk about it, which is ludicrous.

Requests to see other players' achievements made public are invariably attempts at gatekeeping and exclusion.

VaranisArano · December 2022

It seems to me that in the best case scenario this is intended to reveal when players are talking about gameplay with which they have little to no experience. Meanwhile, players who do have a great deal of experience in the relevant field can be easily identified.

A couple things to note:

The Devs already recruited players with a great deal of experience in their class in PVE and PVP to serve as class representatives. Not only did the Devs balance ESO against their advice on several occasions (Murkmire and Scalebreaker), but the Devs also recently sunset the program because it no longer fit their needs. The likelihood that ZOS is listening to random players in the forums over experienced players they know from streaming, etc. is fairly low. Even during U35, they were paying attention to the teams that were raiding and sharing their PTS data, and specifically called out a need for data, not anecdotes. So this might serve the forum community. As for the Devs, they already had trusted, experienced players working with them, chose not to continue the program, and still have experienced players they look to for PTS testing.

Rather than judge someone by their achievements or lack thereof, why not just politely discuss their experience with them? I'm a Legate in PVP. But the vast majority of my PVP experience is as a healer in an organized raid. I'm not shy about sharing that, but you would never know my gameplay background by my achievements unless you asked. So aside from blatant situations where someone's spouting off about Vet Trial balance while never having done one, there's a whole host of situations where achievements either don't show the whole picture or could create a misleading perspective of someone's experience. Polite discussion bridges that gap far more effectively than a list of achievements ever can.

Finally, whether you intend this list of achievements to be used for gatekeeping or not, we have to consider that some people absolutely will use it to gatekeep posters and derail discussions from the merits of someone's ideas to focus on their achievements or lack thereof. How a new feature can be misused is as important as how it's used.

Personally I don't see how this is better than the system we already have, excepting that it makes it easier for posters to form snap judgements of other posters.

The Devs already have known, experienced players they can call on for balance testing. Whether they will or not is up to them - see sunsetting the Class Rep program.

Players can already determine posters' relevant experience in much greater detail through polite discussion in ways that achievements simply can't show.

Mesite · December 2022

Opposed

I have more than one account so it wouldn't help.

I skimmed through the comments. Did anyone say that people who aren't actively playing shouldn't be posting on forums? Using a business example, if you get a new job you aren't allowed to join in your old team's team meetings. But if you still work in the same organisation you could still get to train your successor.

SilverBride · December 2022

Opposed

Mesite wrote: »

I have more than one account so it wouldn't help.

I skimmed through the comments. Did anyone say that people who aren't actively playing shouldn't be posting on forums? Using a business example, if you get a new job you aren't allowed to join in your old team's team meetings. But if you still work in the same organisation you could still get to train your successor.

I brought up the fact that some posters aren't actively playing. I didn't say that they shouldn't be allowed to post but honestly I don't think they should be giving opinions and making suggestions when they are so out of touch with the current state of the game. I never understood why it was allowed, but being free to play I don't know how they would monitor it.

Elsonso · December 2022

Opposed

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

I am of the belief that our in-game achievements should be visibly attached to our Forum Accounts, this would help to shed some light on whether people having these heated debates about changes or better yet, nerfs or buffs, are talking from experience using that thing in question, or from emotions as not having found a way to combat the problem yet.

I feel the same about this as I do "examine character" in the game to see what gear they are wearing. Both will be used as weapons against people who have different opinions. We don't need more of that.

I have multiple accounts, play on on multiple platforms, and in both geographies, but only use the one forum account. How does that work?

When ZOS dropped AwA on us, I did *not* roll all my characters into my account wide achievements. My account achievements do not currently represent my progress in the game.

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

Elsonso wrote: »

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

A very valid point, viewable achievements might be a bit too heavy handed, perhaps viewable statistics would be a better tool. When I’m referring to achievements as a tool to indicate knowledge, I’m referring to the “time played” aspect of them.

You don’t have to be the best player on whatever platform you’re on to participate in a conversation, nobody wants that.

If they were to add a stat tracker that shows time played in each class, and time played in each form of content people recognize, that would be more than enough in my opinion, and would be much lighter handed, and less weaponizable.

WrathOfInnos · December 2022

In Favor

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

What would end up happening is this: you don't have X achievement - then you don't have right to speak / what you are saying is irrelevant... which is like um... bad idea.

I would hope that it would not come to that, if a change like this were implemented because I believe everyone has a voice and should be heard, but our experience in a topic should be visible.

When you see someone with most trifectas, including Godslayer, Gryphon Heart, and Planesbreaker, saying that Rockgrove hard mode is too demanding, that would matter so much for people, especially the newer players trying to get to the point that player is at.

Not being able to differentiate works to discredit people that have knowledge in the topic.

I have to agree with OP on this one. I tend to assume that forum posters have no idea what they're talking about, unless it happens to be a name I recognize. It sometimes proves wrong, but this is statistically the best approach because very few people have a deep understanding of game mechanics, especially after so many veterans were driven away. Any visible achievements can only serve to add credibility in my eyes, there is nothing that can subtract from my zero expectations when encountering a new name.

It would also be nice when someone asks a question and gets 2 widely differing answers. Being able to see who has more credibility could be useful. I can't count the number of times I've given thoughtful advice or answered a question, only to have someone post objectively terrible advice or misconceptions 5 mins later. I can only hope the recipient can tell the difference, since it seems petty to follow up with "ignore that person, I have all the trifectas".

That being said, I've been on other competitive game forums where stats are more public, and there are definitely times where it will devolve into "you don't get to give opinions at that elo". Honestly this is never constructive, and there are certainly times where lower ranked players know their facts. We would need to be careful not to dismiss opinions too easily based on achievements.

Bouldercleave · December 2022

Opposed

opalcity wrote: »

You say "not to discredit people" but this sounds exactly like what you're trying to do.

Now this sounds like gatekeeping.

This right here.

In game elitism is bad enough. No call for it here as well.

Amottica · December 2022

Opposed

The suggestion would create a toxic atmosphere which is why Zenimax will never implement such a change. It would be absurd.

The_Titan_Tim · December 2022

In Favor

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That being said, I've been on other competitive game forums where stats more public, and there are definitely times where it will devolve into "you don't get to give opinions at that elo". Honestly this is never constructive, and there are certainly times where lower ranked players know their facts. We would need to be careful not to dismiss opinions too easily based on achievements.

Exactly why I mentioned it, this feature is present in other forums for game discussion and in general it’s proven to be a good thing.

As far as bashing a player solely for not having an achievement, that is grounds for removal of the “Reply” by the admins, as they do for so many other posts.

Toxicity will exist at all mediums, and shouldn’t be the basis that this is feared, as people can still to this day, post a screenshot of their achievements whenever they want with whatever post they want to support their point.

DarcyMardin · December 2022

Opposed

This is a discussion forum, and we can already see by looking at profiles how long we’ve been registered on this forum. And How many times we’ve posted. There’s even some information about how our posts and/or comments have been received by the community. Surely that’s enough personal information for a discussion board.

I’ve been playing just about every day for 9 years and there’s not much I don’t know about this game. But I’m not an achievement hunter. No doubt there are players who have been here for a much shorter time who have more achievements than I do. So what? I feel confident about commenting on most issues, and I certainly don’t need a gatekeeper telling me that my opinion is worth less than someone else’s because I haven’t finished some particular vet dungeon without dying. (I solo most of my dungeon runs, anyway).

In other words, things are fine the way they are.

Mesite · December 2022

Opposed

I like the idea of showing time played as I've only been on the forum for a short time but played for years on an old account so this forum account doesn't reflect how many years I've played. I tend to create loads of Alts instead of chasing achievements.

It would be difficult to get relevant info from the available information.

oldbobdude · December 2022

Opposed

I’m not sure that achievements are an indicator of authority on the game.

VaranisArano · December 2022

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

A lot more heated conversations deal with class and weapon skills than with things related to achievements. Achievements do not say what characters a player runs, what builds they use, their DPS, or anything that gives insight into class and weapon related knowledge.

A very valid point, viewable achievements might be a bit too heavy handed, perhaps viewable statistics would be a better tool. When I’m referring to achievements as a tool to indicate knowledge, I’m referring to the “time played” aspect of them.

You don’t have to be the best player on whatever platform you’re on to participate in a conversation, nobody wants that.

If they were to add a stat tracker that shows time played in each class, and time played in each form of content people recognize, that would be more than enough in my opinion, and would be much lighter handed, and less weaponizable.

I remind you that ZOS specifically sought out players who were experienced (and well-known) with their class in PVE and PVP to serve as Class Representatives...and recently ended that program. So as far as ZOS and the Devs go, this suggestion is not going to benefit them.

The only point of adding a Time Played per Class function is to allow forum posters to judge other posters' experience.

But is that an accurate picture?

Well, let's look at my /Played stats.

Dragonknight - 97 days
Sorcerer - 82 days
Warden - 26 days
Templar - 3 days
Nightblade - 2 days
Necromancer - 1 day

Heh, surely that'll tell you which classes I'm qualified to give feedback on, won't it?! I look like a regular expert on Dragonknights and Sorcs.

Well...let's look at what it doesn't tell you.

It doesn't tell you that my Dragonknight is a MagDK tank in PVE and a healer in PVP. I have one StamDK with only 1 day of /Played time on her.

It doesn't tell you that all of my Sorcs are PVE. My Stam Sorc DD has 60 days of /Played time, but she's also the character I farm Craglorn with. Most of the others are questing characters. So, uh, if you judge me by my stats, I look way overqualified to talk about Sorcs than I really am.

It won't tell you my Warden is a PVP StamWarden.

It'll tell you I don't have much experience playing as Templars, Nightblades, and Necromancers. It won't tell you most of my experience is fighting them in PVP. I tend not to participate in their balance discussions, unless I'm giving or getting advice about how not to die to them.

So it turns out that's not a very accurate picture at all.

I mean, there's a reason why ZOS started out recruiting very experienced players who were known to perform well at a variety of content for their Class Rep program. If you just look at Time /Played per Class, you're not getting a good picture of what experience players actually have.

Finally, I hope this goes to show why a frank and polite discussion will show you a poster's relevant experience far better than any linked stats can.