Tandor wrote: »

Your first sentence, as bolded by me, refers only to a subset of the community. As such, every subsequent point you make relates only to that same subset. None of it relates to the whole community, or the overall state of the game.

This is an ad hominem. It is a subset, but subsets shouldn't be entirely dismissed. Twitch views in general are a pretty good indication of what games are popular and what games are not. It's not a perfect indication, but it does show how many people are interested in new content.

I just checked Twitch current viewership and ESO had 1.1K viewers, FFXIV & Lost Ark had 6.8K viewers, Albion Online 10K viewers, New World & Path of Exiles around 12K viewers, and WoW (retail + classic) 300K+ viewers.

Now this is just a snapshot but... the numbers are pretty telling. Only LOTRO had fewer of the MMOs I checked, at 200 viewers.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

Games that excite people have active content creation, whether or not you or your subset of the community engage with it at all. Games that do not excite people do not have vibrant content creation scenes. Games that excite people draw in more people than they lose. Games that do not excite people cease being profitable as they lose more than they gain or retain.

See, this is what I find hard to comprehend - if I'm "excited" about a game, I'll play it. Why would I ever want to watch some random extrovert online crack wise while playing a game? And how does my liking Game A have anything to do with that?
...and doesn't viewership of some streamer say "I really like Streamer X" not "I really like the game Streamer X is playing"?

(I've also never had anything else on while I'm playing a game - no TV in the background, no twitch, no music. I'm playing the game, why would I distract myself with other stuff. Or I'd not really be 'watching' that TV show or twitch stream if I'm concentrating on the game. So "I've got 500 hours watching streams in the background while playing ESO" is just totally nonsensical. It's a false statistic, like leaving a game running while you're doing other things - you don't actually have any of that playtime.)

And I do watch content for games I'm excited about and engaged with. It's true for a percentage of people who play most games - not everyone engages with twitch, but some do. And those some are now fewer than they were. It's just another indicator in a sea of indicators.

Additionally, I've noticed that it is either new players or end game players (both PvE and PvP) who tend to engage the most with content creation. This tracks with both the game feeling smaller (fewer gains than losses) and the diminishment of the endgame communities.

I base my opinion of the game on my own experiences rather than a stranger's often biased opinion.

Aislinna wrote: »

I don't feel ESO is a very live stream friendly game, as most of it is not very exciting to watch. For me, in the exciting category is PVP, an activity that can be enjoyable to watch even if the streamer is not very engaging themselves. So, I can watch a depressed, negative streamer play PVP if they keep it moving and are good, but I will not watch them do writs for an hour making me feel like I'm on suicide watch.

Twitch live streaming seemed to bear this out, PVP/action streams tend to have higher viewership/followings then streamers doing less action oriented activities like questing, fishing, dailies, etc. And many PVP streamers have stopped playing/streaming given the current state of bad performance for PVP, so yes, Twitch viewership is down, but for me that doesn't lessen my interest in playing the actual game, nor do I think it means the game is "dying".

p00tx wrote: »

Compared to other games, ESO viewership numbers are abysmally low, because outside of PvP or really strong raid teams (and even those don't generate impressive numbers), it's really not that interesting watching someone pick flowers or do quests/writs (as much as I enjoy doing those things myself). The people who stream this game do it because they love this game, for better or for worse, and they want this game to succeed. If all they wanted was viewers, they'd have left a long time ago.

Yup.

Sawman only has 17k subs. What does he know?

Nefas just posted a really good video summarizing a conversation he and the stream team had with the devs & community managers. Might be worth looking at.

https://youtu.be/Z5UAVDMDMMI

FrankonPC wrote: »

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Nefas just posted a really good video summarizing a conversation he and the stream team had with the devs & community managers. Might be worth looking at.

https://youtu.be/Z5UAVDMDMMI

This was a really informational video done by nefas highlighting the pain points the players have been feeling, and zos themselves listening to feedback on.

Nefas even goes into detail about how "they're well aware" of their retention issues as well as other pain points and want feedback to make the game better.

Kind of pokes a hole in that whole "doing it for clicks" POV since the devs see the same writing everyone else sees. If you've had doubts, you SHOULD watch this.

Currently watching this myself, it's really interesting and telling.

I've never understood the undeserved hate that so many content creators get from many here on the forums. It's like there's an infestation of denialism and "anti-negativity at all costs" going on where people just cannot accept that the game is not in a healthy place at the moment and that the company and dev team needs to hear the criticisms (especially the valid and constructive criticisms) to help them to steer it back in the right direction to keep it growing and improving for many years to come, which is what we all should want.

The vast majority of content creators do it because they love the game, not because it gets them views and the proof is in the numbers.

Just look at the numbers for games like minecraft, fortnight, COD, BF, DotA, League, etc compared to ESO. All of those other games get insane viewer numbers that eso content creators could only dream of even during the best of times, yet the content creators are still doing eso content and have only really branched out within the past month or so due to the game itself becoming barely playable for how they enjoy playing the game.

If the content creators were only in it for the views or the clicks as is claimed by some, then those creators would have permanently switched over to another more popular game a long long time ago and would never even consider playing ESO or creating content for it again.

StShoot wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

The ship (viewership) is sinking and many of them can't make it on different twitch directories/covering other games. Negative content about their main game is still content and draws clicks.

But if the viewer numbers decline, doesnt that mean that players are less interested in a game and therefore the game is dying ? as far as i can tell less and less players are interested in the game. Lost dephts (u35) is a pretty accurate description of my friendlists and guilds and it hasnt gotten any better with u36.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Nefas just posted a really good video summarizing a conversation he and the stream team had with the devs & community managers. Might be worth looking at.

https://youtu.be/Z5UAVDMDMMI

This was a really informational video done by nefas highlighting the pain points the players have been feeling, and zos themselves listening to feedback on.

Nefas even goes into detail about how "they're well aware" of their retention issues as well as other pain points and want feedback to make the game better.

Kind of pokes a hole in that whole "doing it for clicks" POV since the devs see the same writing everyone else sees. If you've had doubts, you SHOULD watch this.

Just look at the numbers for games like minecraft, fortnight, COD, BF, DotA, League, etc compared to ESO. All of those other games get insane viewer numbers that eso content creators could only dream of even during the best of times, yet the content creators are still doing eso content and have only really branched out within the past month or so due to the game itself becoming barely playable for how they enjoy playing the game.

Content creators can't just jump to another game and instantly gain viewers in a proportion that reflects whichever viewership that game has. Multiple ESO content creators have tried and failed. But it's not just ESO content creators. Changing games is risky, partly because your established viewers might not like the new game, so it's almost like starting anew. So, although it might look like ESO content creators are doing a 'favor' to the game by sticking with it, in most cases is a matter of necessity.

Pepegrillos wrote: »

StShoot wrote: »

Pepegrillos wrote: »

The ship (viewership) is sinking and many of them can't make it on different twitch directories/covering other games. Negative content about their main game is still content and draws clicks.

But if the viewer numbers decline, doesnt that mean that players are less interested in a game and therefore the game is dying ? as far as i can tell less and less players are interested in the game. Lost dephts (u35) is a pretty accurate description of my friendlists and guilds and it hasnt gotten any better with u36.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Nefas just posted a really good video summarizing a conversation he and the stream team had with the devs & community managers. Might be worth looking at.

https://youtu.be/Z5UAVDMDMMI

This was a really informational video done by nefas highlighting the pain points the players have been feeling, and zos themselves listening to feedback on.

Nefas even goes into detail about how "they're well aware" of their retention issues as well as other pain points and want feedback to make the game better.

Kind of pokes a hole in that whole "doing it for clicks" POV since the devs see the same writing everyone else sees. If you've had doubts, you SHOULD watch this.

Just look at the numbers for games like minecraft, fortnight, COD, BF, DotA, League, etc compared to ESO. All of those other games get insane viewer numbers that eso content creators could only dream of even during the best of times, yet the content creators are still doing eso content and have only really branched out within the past month or so due to the game itself becoming barely playable for how they enjoy playing the game.

Content creators can't just jump to another game and instantly gain viewers in a proportion that reflects whichever viewership that game has. Multiple ESO content creators have tried and failed. But it's not just ESO content creators. Changing games is risky, partly because your established viewers might not like the new game, so it's almost like starting anew. So, although it might look like ESO content creators are doing a 'favor' to the game by sticking with it, in most cases is a matter of necessity.

That's true, it does take work and time to establish a viewer base, but that's the thing though, if they were only after the views and clicks, they would have jumped to those other games a long time ago or simply started out on those games instead of ESO and easily had enough time to establish their new viewer base for those other games by now since creating content for those other games would be far more likely to achieve their goal of super high clicks and views compared to attempting to do so with ESO.

There were people outside those two groups you particularly target every time, so relax.

HappyTheCamper wrote: »

Nefas just posted a really good video summarizing a conversation he and the stream team had with the devs & community managers. Might be worth looking at.

As has been said many times in the past in relationship to feedback... ZOS listening is a very different thing from ZOS doing. Whatever was suggested at this meeting, ZOS may have nodded and looked interested (I was not there) but them doing something even remotely in alignment with what was talked about is not a given.

As is common in any situation like this, incoming ideas that align well with the prevailing perspective are more likely to be viewed favorably and considered to be affirmation. Incoming ideas that do not align well are likely to be discounted and possibly discarded.

In the past, people have mentioned that the forums are an echo chamber of ideas that just keep getting repeated, and I find that the same exists inside organizations. I am sure ZOS is no exception.

alternatelder wrote: »

All of them do it for clicks. They always spew nonsense at this time of year. Kinda like the ridiculous "should you play ESO in '20,' 21, '22..."

Agree, now lots of them are also pissed about the U-35 nerfs and the U-36 block bugs for very understandable reasons.

honestly its about time more and more content creators speak out and yesterdays stream team meeting is promising. part of me feels the only way something is going to be done is if more content creators are honest and speak up about the games downfalls. im hoping zos took the feedback from them seriously and changes will be made.

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

There were people outside those two groups you particularly target every time, so relax.

70 Stream team members how many represent those who don't Raid or PVP? ...Who didn't get a word in edgewise by his own admission, and it really still doesn't account for anything else I mentioned...

Sit back and let the "Vets" handle it never ends well.

You don't need to be told, can check them out for yourself. Not sure what's qualified as endgame players or pve/PvP for you but those are still a minority, but that doesn't mean other streamers should by default disagree with everything they say like you do.

If you feel like you personally (don't refer to some mythical "majorities" or "casuals", those are plenty represented already) don't have a voice can always start something by yourself.