Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

How about make the end-game PvE and PvP in general easier to get into without over reliance on guilds whom gatekeep content with dps checks. How about the game teaches you how to play the game rather than other players? Instead of focusing on one group how about broaden that one group's (casuals) game modes by making them more enticing and less daunting to jump into.

PvE - vet trials/dungeons. Although even then you'll get bored of them because it's so linear and monotonous and you'll need competent group members but the game doesn't teach newer players or casual players how to do vet trials/dungeons. You must rely on guilds. Which is terrible by design because guilds aren't ideal for everyone. Could be time zone could be that they only run content when you aren't available. Could be that updates like U35 cause lots of players to leave the game and then it's harder to find experienced players to teach you, let alone have the patience to teach you.

I understand your intent and your intent isn't bad just like the dev's stated reasons for U35 weren't bad, but there are a few things that need to be addressed. First guilds don't "gate keep" people out with DPS requirements. DPS requirements are the bare minimum requirement to ensure that the group completes the content which is a direct result of the encounter team's intentional design choices. So guild requirements are a direct result of dev choices not of guilds being elitist. Newer raids also have many more mechanics so DPS thresholds aren't even a guarantee of completing content anymore which is why you see so many LFG posts in Craglorn saying clear required for vet trial PUG runs. Dumbing down trials to be "accessible" to everyone without preparation would kill raiding because everything would become a longer version of Fungral Grotto and those currently raiding would get bored and leave and the new players that change is aimed at would either quit out of frustration since they don't have any mentors or would also get bored of the ease of the content.

There are often other requirements to raid at vet level such as the common CP600 requirement and voice comms which also help ensure the group can complete the content by ensuring the player possesses all of the required skills, passives, and CP nodes required to contribute to the group. Just like one wouldn't have a middle school student try to take a college level calculus exam without adequate preparation you just can't throw a non-raider into a normal raid or a brand new raider into vet raids without adequate teaching and preparation or that person is just being carried and there's a limit to how many carries a group can have and still complete the raid.

Guilds provide build guidance, teaching of trial mechanics, and improvement of role competency to new raiders so guilds are actually vital to raiding in my opinion because "we don't know what we don't know" and frequently the rather talented theory crafters come up better ways of doing things...especially given the frequent combat changes in ESO every quarter. Guilds also provide more opportunities to raid than sitting in Craglorn if you want harder clears and the satisfaction of seeing a prog group come together and mesh as a team. I'm in 3 prog groups and there's a wonderful feeling of satisfaction when you see a boss just "click" for your group that you've been struggling against for a while and you down him consistently from then on out.

I also think that some players want to jump from questing to raiding without having done the per-requisite content escalation (ie training) of questing<normal dungeons<vet dungeons<normal trials<vet trials where you not only get required gear for your role but experience in basic raid mechanics such as blocking, dodging, LOSing, and interrupting. I know people today get impatient but it's important that they walk the path of learning, and one must want to improve in order to do end game content which requires homework and practice just like any sports team. End game players like Nefas and his 260 volunteer raid leads did a great job getting new players into raiding via Project Vitality until ZoS pulled the rug out from underneath the end game community with U35 and basically killed Project Vitality.

I completely agree that ESO does a horrible job of training players. The tutorial is the absolute bare boned minimum and doesn't even explain combat, which role uses sword/board, staff, melee weapons, or which role uses which armor weights or magicka vs stam skills. ZoS must better train players in the mechanics of the game - both intended and unintended like LA weaving before end game accessibility can be discussed with any seriousness since it's ZoS handicapping their own playerbase.

Well said.

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

ZOS already has made it easy to get into endgame. All dungeons and trials have a normal version. All mechs in norm are present in non hm vets. If you watch the mobs and encounters, you'll learn the mechs. That's the game teaching you.

There's no one in endgame that magically knew what to do when new content got released. People went into the new content and died repeatedly until they learned the mechs.

That's the exact same thing anyone new to trials should expect.

If you make a genuine effort to forge into endgame you'd find that:

1. You don't need a guild to get into endgame.
2. There are trial guilds that have extremely low entry reqs like 40k or less dps for starter vets (that much dps can be done by just holding down your left click button).
3. DPS reqs are absolutely needed for harder content. That's why players set reqs. It's not bc anyone is gatekeeping anything. Don't believe me? Get a group of 45k dps dummy parsers and try a vDLC trial.
4. There are trial guilds that don't require membership to join their raids.
5. There are lots of guides and videos made by endgamers that you can find with a simple web search.

I'll help you get started - here's a post I made with info for anyone who's actually serious about trying endgame.

If none of that suits you, take the initiative and create a team of like minded players then just do it.

All mechanics of vet are absolutely *not* present in normal. In fact the idea is so absurd I have no idea why anyone would think that! There may be a faint sniff of the vet mechanic in normals, but so easily ignored as to be non-existent.

Yes they are. Normal has a less harder hitting version than non hm vet, but they are all there which is perfect for beginners. I know this for a fact bc I run vet dungeons and trials, and I also take people new to dungeons/trials thru the norm versions all the time teaching mechs, so I've seen it with my own eyeballs.

Don't forget ESO has a very large casual playerbase.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Auto bar swapping? So you want the game to play itself?

How is the game auto-barswapping the game playing itself? The player would still have to use it's skills, time those, and avoid attacks. The only thing it would enable is the game would switch to the second bar automatically when a skill from that bar is used.

So what you're saying is that instead of having 1 button to swap the bars and use the same 6 buttons for both bars, you want a system that has 12 buttons that you need to press and the game must then detect if the activated skill was on the back bar or not and then change the bar to suit?
That sounds so clunky, unnecessary and down right horrendously tedius to play, not to mention having all those extra buttons for every skill front and back bar be ready all the time would make it very hard to actually play the game and leave almost no room for other options such as interacting keys, convenience keys, keys for utilizing other mechanics in the game such as dodge rolling, blocking, sprinting, etc. Then there's the issue with game performance, do you realise how many additional checks would need to be ran to implement your suggestion? The game is struggling with performance already, the added checks and processes would ruin performance even more than it currently is.

Yes, 12 buttons for skills. That isn't much, especially compared to other MMO's which have multiple skillbars. Just because it doesn't sound good to you, doesn't mean it isn't good for other players.
The only check the game would have to do is check if a skill is used on the fronted bar or not, and swap if needed. (Note: Noone said there shouldn't be a small delay when auto-barswapping, maybe 0.2 secs)

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Soo... You want an Elder Scrolls movie?

That makes absolutely no sense! Even with tools to help sub-optimal players, they would still have to play the game as usual. The same could be said for add-ons, they are tools as well, and often make the game look like a spreadsheet. That is not a reason to not have them.

it makes perfect sense, you are saying you don't want to learn how to play even the most basic aspects of this game, let alone learn anything even remotely challenging or engaging, at which point, why even play a game at all, why not just watch a movie instead.

Basics are blocking, dodge roll, and interrupting, everything else is playerbased opinion and playerinduced gameplay. There is so much more to the game than just a rotation. That however does not change the basics are blocking, dodge roll, and interrupting. I feel a rotation actually takes away from the gameplay, as you sacrifice fun and focussing on your surroundings just to bash buttons. At that point a person may as well disconnect their keyboard and keep bashing buttons, they don't see the game anyways.

Just because someone doesn't play like you, doesn't mean they are bad players. I have completed all veteran dungeon content(except the latest 4 or so dungeons). Having a rotation would actually hold me back, and would make me a worse player. If I were forced to do rotations, I'd outright quit the game.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Not related to the above quotes: Due to pro-player's attitudes, the game has declined a lot. While ZOS is trapped between a rock and hard place, due to pro-player's their stances on things.
Let's take a few examples(rock): ZOS created the oakensoul ring to raise the floor. Pro-players did not like this, as it placed casual players on equal footing with them. Instead of casual players being 10 times worse than them. But pro players do not want others on equal footing, they want to be better, no matter if it destroys the game itself. Due to the pro-player's stance on this, oakensoul was heavily nerfed, and pro players are once again 10 times better than everyone else.
Another example(hard place): ZOS lowered the ceiling in U35. Pro-players did not like this, as they now do less damage. They complained, threatened to quit, threatened to no longer spend money on the game. And some did do exactly that.

No matter what ZOS does, the pro-players complain, regardless of the impact it has on the game itself. Luckily ZOS is starting to realize this, and is aiming towards a more casual game now. Personally I just wish they would go all the way with this, including with balance. Pro-player's stances on things, are really dangerous for a game. A game that includes everyone, of every skilllevel. A game that should be fair towards all types of players.

In my opinion the best ZOS could do is create tools for sub-optimal players, and create many more mythics/systems like the unnerfed oakensoul provided. No matter the feedback from the pro-players. This would make the game fun/equal for everyone.

Your opinion could not be more wrong here. You have had all these amazing "pro players" such as Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, Hack, Deltia and countless others who have not only given up their own time and money into creating tutorials, builds, guides, organising carry runs to help others get achievements that would otherwise be impossible to get, hell even spelling out rotations and creating websites from their own money that explain in simple terms how to improve at the game. They have even gone out of their way to create dedicated discords to directly help players and guide them on getting better at the game if the players want it.

This mythical "end game toxic elitist that wants casuals to be infinitely weaker than them" that you assume every pro player to be, is the vast minority of that community.

Oakensoul getting nerfed is a completely different issue. The item was completely broken for pvp, but instead of listening to the pvp players who asked that certain buffs be changed to pve only buffs to keep it as it was for pve, but make it balanced for pvp, instead zos went ahead and gutted the item for everyone.

Pro players want this game to succeed, probably more than a casual player such as yourself ever will. They love this game and the fact they devote their own personal time, money and energy into trying to improve it for everyone as they have been doing for years now is proof of this, especially since they never had to do so, they could have just never shared any builds or created any guides at all and simply watched all the casuals learn the game the hard way, the same way these "pro players" did, through the harsh process of trial and error.

Casuals such as yourself that want the game to hand everything to them without them having to put even an hour of effort into learning the game has caused just as many issues for this game and pulled the development team in just as many horrible directions as the "pro players" that you are so vehemently against.

What zos should do is to create the tools (see tutorials) that help casual players understand how to do things in the game that would allow them to get better and actually improve at the game, but what would help even more, is for casual players to realise that if they want to remain as casual players and refuse to learn the game then they shouldn't expect to get the same level of performance as players who devote the time and effort to learn the game and get good at it, but if those same casuals want to learn and improve, then yes the tools should be there to help them improve.

It's the same thing as when you're at school or competing in a sport, you shouldn't expect to perform at the same level as a professional player of that sport just because you casually participated in it occasionally or expect to achieve the same level of a grade A student just because you spent 5 minutes studying right before the exam, life doesn't work that way. You should win or get the best results from devoting the time, effort and dedication to learn and practice the activity.

Noone is saying the game does not need pro-players, or that pro-players are not useful to the game and playerbase. Nowhere did I say anything about pro-players not wanting the game to succeed, nor did I say anything toxic about them. I know the game also needs these types of pro-players, so there was no reason to jump to their defense. The point I was trying to make is that the pro-stances on things are so wildly against a game which should be open to everyone. A game in which everyone should be on equal/fair footing. The pro-stance is holding the ceiling high, while keeping the floor low. This in my opinion is a very harmful stance, when taking the entire game into consideration.

Nowhere did I say I (or casuals) wanted everything handed to me. In fact, the reason I ask for tools for sub-optimal players, is so we can experience higher content too and will be able to get things ourselves. The only thing these tools would change, is more players in endgame content, and better players in endgame content. Something I hope everyone wants, as that would shorten queue's and would make raids easier to form. A healthy endgame would in turn bring in more players to the game, players who could enjoy that endgame.

I see the gameplay as being much more than just a rotation(including barswapping/weaving), while you seem to look at a rotation as being the foundation on which the game functions. In your view players need to learn a rotation first, before they can access content. While in my view, I feel players should be able to access all content, and deal with that content how they want. Seeing how they should play, and not already know how to play before they can play. So in my eyes a rotation is a small part of the game, not the entire game's foundation. A small part which could be replaced with tools and other systems.
In your view players are unable to access content, in my view everyone can access all content(with tools). The game currently caters to your view, meaning many players don't sign up to do certain higher content. That is, if they even stick around for that long, as a rotation is quite the mountain to climb. Especially for an activity which is supposed to be fun, a game.

Even with tools, players would eventually learn if they want to. But until then, they would still be able to play, form groups, access content, and shorten queues. Something they can't do now, without climbing the 'rotation' mountain. This is a game, so not comparable to reallife. In reallife people need to train for activities yes, but in a game we want as many players as possible happily playing. In every piece of content available to them.

Just to note, I am not dismissive of your view or think bad about pro-players, we just think totally different and from different angles. Even though we both want the best for the game. So lets just agree to disagree. Enjoy the game!

PS: In my opinion Oakensoul wasn't overpowered in PvP. For the first time ever, PvPers(mostly consists of pro-players) for once had actual competition from casuals which they could no longer burst down in 0.2 seconds. PvP became open to everyone, not just the 1%.

What if I told you that usually I consider myself a casual player? and yet I have some trifectas both on dungeon content, solo content and also play PvP? I play casually, that doesn't mean I have to be bad at the game or only interested in questing.

Just leaving this here for anyone who doesn't know, you can pull 80k-90k+ dps with just a one bar Oakensoul heavy attack setup using easily obtainable sets from overland and a base game dungeon. You can find these builds on YouTube.

No complicated rotation, no light attack weaving, no bar swapping required. It's just hold down your left click button to heavy and throw in some skills in between.

With that much dps, you are more than able to pull your weight in all vet trials even vet dlcs.

One thing I should note though: The thing about performing well in ESO endgame isn't just doing good damage, it's also knowing mechanics. You can have the highest dps in the game but that doesn't mean squat if you're always dead and killing everyone else bc you don't know mechs. I'd rather have a 70k player in my raid who's always alive and situationally aware than a 100k player who's always a floor mat.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

FelisCatus wrote: »

Auto bar swapping? So you want the game to play itself?

How is the game auto-barswapping the game playing itself? The player would still have to use it's skills, time those, and avoid attacks. The only thing it would enable is the game would switch to the second bar automatically when a skill from that bar is used.

So what you're saying is that instead of having 1 button to swap the bars and use the same 6 buttons for both bars, you want a system that has 12 buttons that you need to press and the game must then detect if the activated skill was on the back bar or not and then change the bar to suit?
That sounds so clunky, unnecessary and down right horrendously tedius to play, not to mention having all those extra buttons for every skill front and back bar be ready all the time would make it very hard to actually play the game and leave almost no room for other options such as interacting keys, convenience keys, keys for utilizing other mechanics in the game such as dodge rolling, blocking, sprinting, etc. Then there's the issue with game performance, do you realise how many additional checks would need to be ran to implement your suggestion? The game is struggling with performance already, the added checks and processes would ruin performance even more than it currently is.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Soo... You want an Elder Scrolls movie?

That makes absolutely no sense! Even with tools to help sub-optimal players, they would still have to play the game as usual. The same could be said for add-ons, they are tools as well, and often make the game look like a spreadsheet. That is not a reason to not have them.

it makes perfect sense, you are saying you don't want to learn how to play even the most basic aspects of this game, let alone learn anything even remotely challenging or engaging, at which point, why even play a game at all, why not just watch a movie instead.

Not related to the above quotes: Due to pro-player's attitudes, the game has declined a lot. While ZOS is trapped between a rock and hard place, due to pro-player's their stances on things.
Let's take a few examples(rock): ZOS created the oakensoul ring to raise the floor. Pro-players did not like this, as it placed casual players on equal footing with them. Instead of casual players being 10 times worse than them. But pro players do not want others on equal footing, they want to be better, no matter if it destroys the game itself. Due to the pro-player's stance on this, oakensoul was heavily nerfed, and pro players are once again 10 times better than everyone else.
Another example(hard place): ZOS lowered the ceiling in U35. Pro-players did not like this, as they now do less damage. They complained, threatened to quit, threatened to no longer spend money on the game. And some did do exactly that.

No matter what ZOS does, the pro-players complain, regardless of the impact it has on the game itself. Luckily ZOS is starting to realize this, and is aiming towards a more casual game now. Personally I just wish they would go all the way with this, including with balance. Pro-player's stances on things, are really dangerous for a game. A game that includes everyone, of every skilllevel. A game that should be fair towards all types of players.

In my opinion the best ZOS could do is create tools for sub-optimal players, and create many more mythics/systems like the unnerfed oakensoul provided. No matter the feedback from the pro-players. This would make the game fun/equal for everyone.

Your opinion could not be more wrong here. You have had all these amazing "pro players" such as Nefas, Skinny Cheeks, Hack, Deltia and countless others who have not only given up their own time and money into creating tutorials, builds, guides, organising carry runs to help others get achievements that would otherwise be impossible to get, hell even spelling out rotations and creating websites from their own money that explain in simple terms how to improve at the game. They have even gone out of their way to create dedicated discords to directly help players and guide them on getting better at the game if the players want it.

This mythical "end game toxic elitist that wants casuals to be infinitely weaker than them" that you assume every pro player to be, is the vast minority of that community.

Oakensoul getting nerfed is a completely different issue. The item was completely broken for pvp, but instead of listening to the pvp players who asked that certain buffs be changed to pve only buffs to keep it as it was for pve, but make it balanced for pvp, instead zos went ahead and gutted the item for everyone.

Pro players want this game to succeed, probably more than a casual player such as yourself ever will. They love this game and the fact they devote their own personal time, money and energy into trying to improve it for everyone as they have been doing for years now is proof of this, especially since they never had to do so, they could have just never shared any builds or created any guides at all and simply watched all the casuals learn the game the hard way, the same way these "pro players" did, through the harsh process of trial and error.

Casuals such as yourself that want the game to hand everything to them without them having to put even an hour of effort into learning the game has caused just as many issues for this game and pulled the development team in just as many horrible directions as the "pro players" that you are so vehemently against.

What zos should do is to create the tools (see tutorials) that help casual players understand how to do things in the game that would allow them to get better and actually improve at the game, but what would help even more, is for casual players to realise that if they want to remain as casual players and refuse to learn the game then they shouldn't expect to get the same level of performance as players who devote the time and effort to learn the game and get good at it, but if those same casuals want to learn and improve, then yes the tools should be there to help them improve.

It's the same thing as when you're at school or competing in a sport, you shouldn't expect to perform at the same level as a professional player of that sport just because you casually participated in it occasionally or expect to achieve the same level of a grade A student just because you spent 5 minutes studying right before the exam, life doesn't work that way. You should win or get the best results from devoting the time, effort and dedication to learn and practice the activity.

Actually, you both are right ... for every Skinnycheaks, there is also a toxic player that does have that attitude ... but, in the end, they are a tiny, tiny, minority of the overall game base, even combining the good and the bad.

I think the bigger issue is one that ZOS created, themselves, because they have followed the current monetization trends, and in the process of doing the whole overpowered sets to help sell content, created a situation where players feel they have to optimize to keep up. Why would you NEED an overpowered set, unless the new content is SO hard, that it is necessary to have the set to complete..... and then, the Nerf, because the next content will have it's overpower to sell.......

What it is creating is this constant need to keep building and powering up, with having your characters equipped with the newest and best equipment, or you are falling behind.

They are doing it to sell material, as opposed to letting the material sell itself... and in the process, creating this race for the newest sets ... which then sets the expectation for the players that you MUST have those, to be as good as you can be, or at least, as good as the other players .... meanwhile, these sets are VERY Overpowered, mostly to help sell the expansion...which DOES create over powered players in those that CAN go grind them out. And, you have to grind them quickly, to get them before the nerf, and the need for the next set ......

So, it has created this situation where the "top" or "elite" players are actually in a better position, due to equipment, and the ability to grind for that better equipment, but it has become what most of the players thing of as the "normal state". And because of that, people that, for whatever reason, cannot grind, will feel that they are left behind - while those that can, will begin to see the players that can't as not as useful in dungeons, etc.

A good example, I have a necro healer - I can drop a huge amount of healing and despite only being in my 30's, right now, for level - have been invited by my over 50 level guildmates, as I can keep the healing up, that they need. But, I have been told, in randoms, that I am not "high enough" to do enough in groups in their 40's, and even, once, asked to leave the group, so that they could find a "better healer" Later, I ran with another group, and one of those guys was in there, and he, later, told me he was surprised, and he wished they had kept me, as the other guy didn't do as well......

This is a direct result of the marketing of, not only this game, but many games that are out there..... they need to sell expansions, and cosmetics cannot guarantee the sales needed.

The marketing, though, has driven the culture in the game - and the players are, unconsciously, in many cases, building that trend.

We are going to have to redefine what is the "normal gameplay"... and that, I am not sure, can be done.

Auldwulfe

CrashTest wrote: »

Dragonredux wrote: »

CrashTest wrote: »

Yes they are. Normal has a less harder hitting version than non hm vet, but they are all there which is perfect for beginners. I know this for a fact bc I run vet dungeons and trials, and I also take people new to dungeons/trials thru the norm versions all the time teaching mechs, so I've seen it with my own eyeballs.

Yes and no

Yes, normal have lesser versions of the mechanics where the punishment for failing is usually bringing you down to very low HP or the damage is so insignicant it can be easily outhealed

No in the fact, there are definitely mechanics in the game that solely exists on vet both in dungeons and trials. I don't understand how you say you run both but never ran into a vet specific mechanics, here's two examples.

Dungeon - Moon Hunter Keep - Archivist Ernarde has an enrage ring around him that if any add steps into it. They instantly get enraged.

Trial - Cloudrest - If any player dies during Z'Maja, you have to kill a shadow clone of that player in order to revive them.

Neither of these two mechanics exist on normal.

Ah yes, I stand corrected on vCR, forgot about it. When did they nerf the archivist? It used to enrage in norm as well.

As for not getting killed in norms, I just saw a level 10 tank die in Fungal Grotto 1 the other day. If you take a raid/group of 11/3 inexperienced casuals especially if they're supports (and not carry them but just let them learn) I guarantee that you will see wipes and not just depleted hp if they ignore mechs.

I'll just use the latest content and some older ones as an example of what I've seen myself bc there are so many.

nRG - poison, cleave, meteors
nDSR - keelcutter, deluge, maelstrom, donut, and basically everything if tank
nEarthen Root - not hiding behind pillars, not avoiding pillars
nSCP - poison, targets, ice storm
nFH - minotaurs
nHRC - gargoyles, air atro, shield throw, meteors

Bottom line is norms are a very good place to learn mechs and basics for completely new to endgame players.

I would rather bring an inexperienced guild member or two into a vet dungeon and spend 2 hours learning the vet mechanics than try to teach the same thing on normal. Even add pulls in certain dungeons require the right adds to be focused first like the Revivfiers in vFang Lair because if they enrage the other adds you will die fast. It’s not a mech you would even feel in normal. Also final boss on vFang Lair has quite a few more mechanics than on normal. Players will learn to hate Bone Collosus after completing this but will learn group coordination needed for taking on things like vBRP. This dungeon is a great test of 4 man dungeon synergy. If you can get trifecta in this dungeon than you have to tools to complete just about any content in the game.