svendf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

If they nerf self healing tell me how your vCR3 and Bahsei HM portal teams manage to survive.

I’ll wait.

I highly doubt this is a player who is familiar with a lot of vet or pvp content. Anyone who was would not suggest it based on all the aforementioned reasons. It's just not viable. A lot of newer - to mid level players that enjoy solo content (and yes regardless of if you in favor of it or not zos has designed huge swaths of the game to be soloable at mid level on purpose because it is the vast majority of the player base) would find themselves incapable of world bosses which would lead to a lot of people just leaving. So no, zos will never eliminate self healing.

ZOS can scale selfhealing based on content. No real need for selfheal in normal dungens just bring a healer and let them in on the game. Regarding harder content, which include portals, assign a healer to join the the two dd´s as in VSS on last boss. It´s often content with two healers onboard anyway - maybe it have changed as well I don´t know.

It´s wierd really. One of the top one MMO´s have it solved. Why can´t it be solved in ESO ? Who is holding back ? And why ?

Nah something went total wrong along the way. You don´t vater to a specific role, which I beleive happed here. You cater to all roles and make them equal important.

Uh no. You would have to have 2 healers for just for portals in vcr. Have you done it? I have. Many many times. Read my earlier post. The mechs require a kite for upstairs (a healer), a healer for group and then you are suggesting additional healers for downstairs as well. It's too spread out and dps must move too quickly, There is no way to cross heal. So now you are talking 4 healers for a trial.

As for dungeons- double no. Until the issue of DPS quing as tanks and healers is fixed, and actual dps have a decent tutorial of some kind so they can hit enough that a normal dungeon isn't an hour long shlog group finder would be unusable. Doing that won't solve the issue it will make people not play the content. Additionally zos will not scale for every single kind of content. They barely want to deal with it in pvp as it is because of server calculations. So now we are going to have different calculations for trials. Different for dungeons. Different for overland, different for arenas, pvp... On and on. They won't do it. Ever.

To top it all off the main reason this happened is because they openly cater to solo players over mmo players, more experienced solo player frequently do dungeons with just their companions, if they nuke self healing, they nuke that too. They barely wanted to admit it was an MMO to begin with and actually tried to distance themselves from sticking it solidly in that genre. There was a recent article/interview about this. Nefas did a vid on it not too long ago.

I have 12k plus hours in ESO and done alot of content. Does it matter ? No, not really. You actually put a finger on problems in ESO. In ESO there are 12 slots, so my guess is ZOS want people to make up their own minds, what´s needed to run the content they wanna run. The consensus in trials seems to be two healers and two tanks, eventhough I have seen one healer single handed healed Vss HM no death run. That said she is special, nice and humble at the same time.

Yes it matters. A grasp of the overall content especially hard content gives a much better frame for these kind of solutions. Can someone solo heal that? Yeah sure. If dps is pushing 120k for everyone and your tank is god tier. That isn't the norm. Your example is based on an extremely optimized group. And I would bet that at least a few dps in those groups were running self heals because otherwise the group would simply die while healer was healing ice cages and that's just a fact.

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

If they nerf self healing tell me how your vCR3 and Bahsei HM portal teams manage to survive.

I’ll wait.

They will put healer in portals )) With DD and tank ? )

We have been through this at least 4x. One healer will not cut it. Dps go in opposite directions in portal phase because it is on a time limit each one is expected to take out half the shards otherwise they will wipe. The area is too wide to accommodate cross healing so you now require 4 healers. One to kite upstairs, one to heal group, and 2 downstairs. Even if you could cross heal it, which you can't, you would still need a second healer for portal because portal teams must alternate. They get a huge dot debuff upon entering and it doesn't end in time for you to go down again multiple times in a row, you will die hence two portal teams. There are a multitude of reason this hasn't been done. Trials represent only one reason out of many that have already been brought up in previous replies.

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

svendf wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

If they nerf self healing tell me how your vCR3 and Bahsei HM portal teams manage to survive.

I’ll wait.

I highly doubt this is a player who is familiar with a lot of vet or pvp content. Anyone who was would not suggest it based on all the aforementioned reasons. It's just not viable. A lot of newer - to mid level players that enjoy solo content (and yes regardless of if you in favor of it or not zos has designed huge swaths of the game to be soloable at mid level on purpose because it is the vast majority of the player base) would find themselves incapable of world bosses which would lead to a lot of people just leaving. So no, zos will never eliminate self healing.

ZOS can scale selfhealing based on content. No real need for selfheal in normal dungens just bring a healer and let them in on the game. Regarding harder content, which include portals, assign a healer to join the the two dd´s as in VSS on last boss. It´s often content with two healers onboard anyway - maybe it have changed as well I don´t know.

It´s wierd really. One of the top one MMO´s have it solved. Why can´t it be solved in ESO ? Who is holding back ? And why ?

Nah something went total wrong along the way. You don´t vater to a specific role, which I beleive happed here. You cater to all roles and make them equal important.

Uh no. You would have to have 2 healers for just for portals in vcr. Have you done it? I have. Many many times. Read my earlier post. The mechs require a kite for upstairs (a healer), a healer for group and then you are suggesting additional healers for downstairs as well. It's too spread out and dps must move too quickly, There is no way to cross heal. So now you are talking 4 healers for a trial.

As for dungeons- double no. Until the issue of DPS quing as tanks and healers is fixed, and actual dps have a decent tutorial of some kind so they can hit enough that a normal dungeon isn't an hour long shlog group finder would be unusable. Doing that won't solve the issue it will make people not play the content. Additionally zos will not scale for every single kind of content. They barely want to deal with it in pvp as it is because of server calculations. So now we are going to have different calculations for trials. Different for dungeons. Different for overland, different for arenas, pvp... On and on. They won't do it. Ever.

To top it all off the main reason this happened is because they openly cater to solo players over mmo players, more experienced solo player frequently do dungeons with just their companions, if they nuke self healing, they nuke that too. They barely wanted to admit it was an MMO to begin with and actually tried to distance themselves from sticking it solidly in that genre. There was a recent article/interview about this. Nefas did a vid on it not too long ago.

I have 12k plus hours in ESO and done alot of content. Does it matter ? No, not really. You actually put a finger on problems in ESO. In ESO there are 12 slots, so my guess is ZOS want people to make up their own minds, what´s needed to run the content they wanna run. The consensus in trials seems to be two healers and two tanks, eventhough I have seen one healer single handed healed Vss HM no death run. That said she is special, nice and humble at the same time.

Yes it matters. A grasp of the overall content especially hard content gives a much better frame for these kind of solutions. Can someone solo heal that? Yeah sure. If dps is pushing 120k for everyone and your tank is god tier. That isn't the norm. Your example is based on an extremely optimized group. And I would bet that at least a few dps in those groups were running self heals because otherwise the group would simply die while healer was healing ice cages and that's just a fact.

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

If they nerf self healing tell me how your vCR3 and Bahsei HM portal teams manage to survive.

I’ll wait.

They will put healer in portals )) With DD and tank ? )

We have been through this at least 4x. One healer will not cut it. Dps go in opposite directions in portal phase because it is on a time limit each one is expected to take out half the shards otherwise they will wipe. The area is too wide to accommodate cross healing so you now require 4 healers. One to kite upstairs, one to heal group, and 2 downstairs. Even if you could cross heal it, which you can't, you would still need a second healer for portal because portal teams must alternate. They get a huge dot debuff upon entering and it doesn't end in time for you to go down again multiple times in a row, you will die hence two portal teams. There are a multitude of reason this hasn't been done. Trials represent only one reason out of many that have already been brought up in previous replies.

I’ve had to run that last orb across the room in vCR3 portal more times than I care to count. You need that 18K self heal more than once to survive. If you happen to pop up inside Siroria’s standard you will need to hit that heal again to get out of it alive because the group won’t be standing there getting heals either. Or if you happen to pop up into an orb you will also need it.

My personal favourite mech though is going down in portals with 3x orb dots on you. You want to talk sweaty portal DPS carrying those orb dots downstairs is as painful as it gets. Or even better try having ice spawn on you while running in and having to share that with your portal buddies the whole time.

As to other trials let’s not forget vAS2 where you need every bit of self sustain and self healing you can get unless you are in one of those super sweaty 6min or less IR groups that can push enough damage where mechs don’t really matter. Not many of those exist.

Basically all of this. I've had to backup portal with that dot and horfrost. No way you get through that without your own heals. I had to spam heal to survive. And what happens if the healer goes down in portal, then what? Your whole team just wipes? Can't send another down or someone is getting one shotted by the mech they are supposed to be kiting or the group gets annihilated since your only other healer would be group healer that is basically the 2 options in these "proposed" setup. You get backups for dps. There are 8 for a reason. You need the experience of hard content if proposing sweeping changes of this nature. It's not a quick fix like some have suggested.

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

It’s a pretty easy fix.
The issue is dungeon finder letting people que in as the wrong spec. Now most random normal content it is not an issue for fake tanking until you get into dlc content. Some of those bosses can be punks bc of mech

If a person ques up as tank then they need to have a minimum resist, and taunts as well as at least one snb or ice staff. It’s really that simple. When they get into the dungeon they can swap out for whatever they want to wear. But at least now there is a person who has an actual tank set up in group. They should also have a minimum health threshold for vet.

But normal content is so easy.

My wife and I have duo’d every dungeon on Vet in this game except 3 and that was due to mech. Yes you read that correctly. Duo’d on Vet every dung except 3. And yes we even got some HMs completed as a duo.

Calling to nerf something is not the right answer in my opinion. There are not a lot of tanks in the game. If they truly wanted to encourage more tanks then having someone que up as a tank, with the limits I said above and yielding that person who queue’s as a tank a very special reward would, I think help, the tank community grow. And allow people to not be so scared of tanking in true tank fashion.

I agree with this. The one thing I keep seeing in this forum, to every problem, is nerf, nerf, nerf. Well, there's a reason people feel the need to have self heals these days. Nerfs. I say we stop nerfing everything to heck and gone and start concentrating on the builds as they were meant to be, not what they have become after years of nerfing.

Stop giving Zos ideas. It's the only one they use constantly. The nerf bat. Jeez...

FineFeathered wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

It’s a pretty easy fix.
The issue is dungeon finder letting people que in as the wrong spec. Now most random normal content it is not an issue for fake tanking until you get into dlc content. Some of those bosses can be punks bc of mech

If a person ques up as tank then they need to have a minimum resist, and taunts as well as at least one snb or ice staff. It’s really that simple. When they get into the dungeon they can swap out for whatever they want to wear. But at least now there is a person who has an actual tank set up in group. They should also have a minimum health threshold for vet.

But normal content is so easy.

My wife and I have duo’d every dungeon on Vet in this game except 3 and that was due to mech. Yes you read that correctly. Duo’d on Vet every dung except 3. And yes we even got some HMs completed as a duo.

Calling to nerf something is not the right answer in my opinion. There are not a lot of tanks in the game. If they truly wanted to encourage more tanks then having someone que up as a tank, with the limits I said above and yielding that person who queue’s as a tank a very special reward would, I think help, the tank community grow. And allow people to not be so scared of tanking in true tank fashion.

I agree with this. The one thing I keep seeing in this forum, to every problem, is nerf, nerf, nerf. Well, there's a reason people feel the need to have self heals these days. Nerfs. I say we stop nerfing everything to heck and gone and start concentrating on the builds as they were meant to be, not what they have become after years of nerfing.

Stop giving Zos ideas. It's the only one they use constantly. The nerf bat. Jeez...

All of this. It's usually from folks who don't do harder content or don't but want to. Nerfs come through and they then wonder why people are the top end are still hitting the same numbers and they are in the dirt. 35 was a perfect example. High end acclimated and is back at 120k and low end is at like 15k and can't figure out why. Stop asking them to swing the nerf bat. It helps no one.

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

If they nerf self healing tell me how your vCR3 and Bahsei HM portal teams manage to survive.

I’ll wait.

They will put healer in portals )) With DD and tank ? )

Fungal Grotto 2. The spider sends one player into the cave. One way or the other, someone will have no heals. The tank will also be out of range of ground based hots at a minimum while they kite the spiders away from the boss on one of the prior bosses.

Fang Lair HM. Its virtually impossible for both DDs and the tank to remain within range of the healer 100% of the time. Those who can are highly coordinated.

Cradle of Shadows Velidreth catacombs phase.

Riuns of Mazatun final boss when the healer is blind.

Those are instances where a healer cannot be there or is somehow prevented healing their group by the game mechanics just in dungeons. Im sure there are a few more.

VDSA on the 9th stage, someone is without heals while the healer either goes into the portal to heal the DD in there, or leaves them without heals to heal those up top. If all 4 go into the portal it resets the stage.

VCR portals. You could technically bring a 3rd healer in the group and rotate one healer into the portals leaving 2 up top at all time. At what cost? On vCR+x youre already running 7 DDs. This makes it 6. This would push this content even further away for more casual/prog groups. All that assumes that the strategy was modified to keep both DDs in range of the healer.

VSS portals. There are 3 spots. If the healer takes one that leaves 2 DDs. This would also push HM further away for casual/prog groups.

Given the direction that U35 is said to be taking us, this idea of nerfing self healing to the point where a DD or tank cannot self heal is dead in the water, thankfully. Its a pretty bad idea. The end results would more DDs opting for Ring of the Pale Order and put healers in an even worse spot.

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

SPR_of_HA_community wrote: »

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

If they nerf self healing tell me how your vCR3 and Bahsei HM portal teams manage to survive.

I’ll wait.

They will put healer in portals )) With DD and tank ? )

Fungal Grotto 2. The spider sends one player into the cave. One way or the other, someone will have no heals. The tank will also be out of range of ground based hots at a minimum while they kite the spiders away from the boss on one of the prior bosses.

Fang Lair HM. Its virtually impossible for both DDs and the tank to remain within range of the healer 100% of the time. Those who can are highly coordinated.

Cradle of Shadows Velidreth catacombs phase.

Riuns of Mazatun final boss when the healer is blind.

Those are instances where a healer cannot be there or is somehow prevented healing their group by the game mechanics just in dungeons. Im sure there are a few more.

VDSA on the 9th stage, someone is without heals while the healer either goes into the portal to heal the DD in there, or leaves them without heals to heal those up top. If all 4 go into the portal it resets the stage.

VCR portals. You could technically bring a 3rd healer in the group and rotate one healer into the portals leaving 2 up top at all time. At what cost? On vCR+x youre already running 7 DDs. This makes it 6. This would push this content even further away for more casual/prog groups. All that assumes that the strategy was modified to keep both DDs in range of the healer.

VSS portals. There are 3 spots. If the healer takes one that leaves 2 DDs. This would also push HM further away for casual/prog groups.

Given the direction that U35 is said to be taking us, this idea of nerfing self healing to the point where a DD or tank cannot self heal is dead in the water, thankfully. Its a pretty bad idea. The end results would more DDs opting for Ring of the Pale Order and put healers in an even worse spot.

Party just can take more healers

2 healers 1 tank and 1 DD

Do you like my idea ? )))

I do not like it too, but like an option ))))

Several of the cases mentioned are ones where it's just one person alone who has to pass a dps and heal check... it's not gonna happen. I don't see the problem with dps having self heals and I'm a healer main. It makes trifectas less stressful and I can work more on (de-)buffing. What we need is not dps having no self heals but more healer mechanics (more interesting ones at that... I'm tired of plain heal checks). I've found that the newer dungeons have been doing a good job at this and while it won't save older content, it'll mean doing random vet as a fake healer will become more and more dangerous.