been healing a bunch of VET dungeons during this event and noticed a trend with fake tanks

dsalter

i will always ask "why fake tank you make some dungeons undoable" or "if your going to fake tank at least wait for the healer"
and the responce i get almost every time is "why have a tank/healer when i can self heal just as good"

and it made some sense, WHY tank or heal if you can deal high damage AND healing? self healing is so good that theres no reason to not have one, why have 2 damage, 1 tank and 1 healer when you can faceroll even the harder VET dungeons as 4 damage with strong self heals?

the easy cure would be to just force assigned roles a roll based buff, tank deals 10% less damage but recieves 5% less damage and 10% magicka/stam cost reduction, healers deal 10% less damage but have 10% increased magicka+stam regen (i would say healing increase but healing on a healer is already pretty high) and damage would get 10% damage increase and 5% stam/magicka regen but 15% less self healing.

but you can bet people will get salty over losing their "play anyway you want" being nerfed (more like cheese any way) but unless a better solution comes up this would honestly be the better option because right now bad habbits are reinforced due to how easy it is to be "hybrid" since self healing scales with your aggressive stats

opalcity

They could always do what another mmorpg did a few years ago, and that's to nerf self heals. It was an unpopular decision at the time, but then people adjusted, everyone started to appreciate healers and tanks more, and there was better overall role standards in group content.

AcadianPaladin

Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.

Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.

ForzaRammer

Just get rid of group finder all together

Memory_In_Motion

dsalter wrote: »

i will always ask "why fake tank you make some dungeons undoable" or "if your going to fake tank at least wait for the healer"
and the responce i get almost every time is "why have a tank/healer when i can self heal just as good"

and it made some sense, WHY tank or heal if you can deal high damage AND healing? self healing is so good that theres no reason to not have one, why have 2 damage, 1 tank and 1 healer when you can faceroll even the harder VET dungeons as 4 damage with strong self heals?

the easy cure would be to just force assigned roles a roll based buff, tank deals 10% less damage but recieves 5% less damage and 10% magicka/stam cost reduction, healers deal 10% less damage but have 10% increased magicka+stam regen (i would say healing increase but healing on a healer is already pretty high) and damage would get 10% damage increase and 5% stam/magicka regen but 15% less self healing.

but you can bet people will get salty over losing their "play anyway you want" being nerfed (more like cheese any way) but unless a better solution comes up this would honestly be the better option because right now bad habbits are reinforced due to how easy it is to be "hybrid" since self healing scales with your aggressive stats

In eso, the more damage you can do the more healing you can also do. High crit rate with high damage also = high heals. Most casual players don't know it. Only the min-maxers who do the maths really appreciate it.

jaws343

opalcity wrote: »

They could always do what another mmorpg did a few years ago, and that's to nerf self heals. It was an unpopular decision at the time, but then people adjusted, everyone started to appreciate healers and tanks more, and there was better overall role standards in group content.

That would break the solo arenas though.

dsalter

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.

Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.

the trinity you so call "forced" is already forced in trials, hell the finder itself is BUILT around the trinity, there wouldnt be a role queue if they didnt expect you to... you know... pick a role.
adding a way for 4 people to random queue with their own setup is a nice way to comprimise but you have to remember this is an MMO, your single person build shouldnt be forced onto OTHER players, you know, the people you are playing along side with in an MMO?

DMuehlhausen

They do have a problem with it. They have essentially made Tank and or Healer worthless. There are people that 4 DPS things like vDSA. You shouldn't be able to do an Arena like that with 4 dps, I don't think there should really be any self healing or it should all be nerfed pretty hard.

DMuehlhausen

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.

Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.

Ok, I think most people looking to do vet content or harder content if they make won't miss a few people out of the queue. Hmmm, get content I want where all classes and needed and enjoyed, or lose a couple self entitled players that feel they should be able to solo everything...not a hard decision.

DMuehlhausen

jaws343 wrote: »

opalcity wrote: »

They could always do what another mmorpg did a few years ago, and that's to nerf self heals. It was an unpopular decision at the time, but then people adjusted, everyone started to appreciate healers and tanks more, and there was better overall role standards in group content.

That would break the solo arenas though.

You would adjust the solo arenas to match. Give them ways to heal, have items they can interact with during encounters to heal, have to use potions to heal. It wouldn't break the solo content.

Necrotech_Master

dsalter wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.

Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.

the trinity you so call "forced" is already forced in trials, hell the finder itself is BUILT around the trinity, there wouldnt be a role queue if they didnt expect you to... you know... pick a role.
adding a way for 4 people to random queue with their own setup is a nice way to comprimise but you have to remember this is an MMO, your single person build shouldnt be forced onto OTHER players, you know, the people you are playing along side with in an MMO?

i remember back in the day when the queue started working and they allowed you to select multiple roles

i think there were complains about "fake roles" even back then, when most people would select all 3 roles and queue in, knowingly not able to perform one or more of those roles

for stuff like trials it makes sense, dungeons it makes sense only for the "average" player group, for people who know what they are doing the roles are kind of limiting and just make it annoying

El_Borracho

I wouldn't change anything based on what people can do in a base dungeon, normal or vet. You can absolutely run all of them without a tank or healer. But that does not mean that you can run all dungeons with a fake tank/fake healer. Keep it the way it is.

jaws343

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

opalcity wrote: »

They could always do what another mmorpg did a few years ago, and that's to nerf self heals. It was an unpopular decision at the time, but then people adjusted, everyone started to appreciate healers and tanks more, and there was better overall role standards in group content.

That would break the solo arenas though.

You would adjust the solo arenas to match. Give them ways to heal, have items they can interact with during encounters to heal, have to use potions to heal. It wouldn't break the solo content.

That sounds flat out terrible. All to "fix" a non-existent problem.

Androrix

Everyone always seems to have fixes for the game and everyone else based on their own playstyle. I solo almost exclusively. I do vet dungeons. I have an all round build that allows me to do decent damage, but is robust enough and has enough self-healing capability to survive. The dungeons take me longer obviously and are more of a challenge, but they just would not be possible and no fun if I wasn't an all rounder.

There is lots of content, and a number of dungeons, I cannot do solo. I accept that. But I have no interest at all in being locked into one type of role just to suit people who just want to group play.

Soarora

While it is possible to 4dps hard vet dungeons, it's not necessarily easily attainable for most people. A fake tank in a vet dlc queue is just not going to work. A fake healer maybe but the other group members may not be built to self heal and self sustain. A healer does more than just heal and tanking is a whole other realm of mechanics. I'll deal with a fake tank in non dlc but absolutely not in dlc, one of us is leaving.

blktauna

I think the actual issue is that you should not be a *** and run the dungeon with the other people in it vs blow ahead because 'you' don't have the time or desire to actually do the dungeon, you just want your crystals etc. and don't care who you screw over to get it.

boi_anachronism_

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

opalcity wrote: »

They could always do what another mmorpg did a few years ago, and that's to nerf self heals. It was an unpopular decision at the time, but then people adjusted, everyone started to appreciate healers and tanks more, and there was better overall role standards in group content.

That would break the solo arenas though.

You would adjust the solo arenas to match. Give them ways to heal, have items they can interact with during encounters to heal, have to use potions to heal. It wouldn't break the solo content.

No. Show me a pov of you doing VVH with no self heals at all. Forget about trifectas. How about vet cloudrest? Gonna portal with no self heals? On a time limit? Potions will never keep up with that damage, the cool down is way too long. You would have to take 4 healers into that trial. 2- to run around downstairs with the DPS, one to kite upstairs and one to heal group. Your min dps would have to be through the roof to clear because now you gotta sacrifice 2 additional dd spots. People going into maelstrom for the first time would just give up. Self heals are integral to many parts of the game. What about pvp? Whatcha gonna do? Have 25 sigils outside each keep?

Amottica

While I no longer have to queue for a random dungeon group because I found good people to run with the trend I noticed with fake tanks is that they tended to be bad DPS and required a lot of healing because they bathed in damage.

Even with what OP is describing, if they can heal themselves, then their DPS is far from optimal. They have to drop damage skills to get a healing and damage mitigation skill or two, and when they are healing themselves, their DPS is dropping since DPS comes from damage per action.

It has little to do with being able to DPS and heal in the same build and has more to do with the design of dungeon fights and the challenge they pose. Most dungoen are weak and need to be made more challenging. As a result, using them as an example of an issue with healing and damage in the game ignores what happens in the content designed to be challenging, vet HM trials.

So if we are going to talk about "issues" with healing and damage in ESO let us talk about it in the context of content that is actually challenging and not weak-sauce dungeons.

AlterBlika

dsalter wrote: »

the easy cure would be to just force assigned roles a roll based buff, tank deals 10% less damage but recieves 5% less damage and 10% magicka/stam cost reduction, healers deal 10% less damage but have 10% increased magicka+stam regen (i would say healing increase but healing on a healer is already pretty high) and damage would get 10% damage increase and 5% stam/magicka regen but 15% less self healing.

I don't think this is going to help. The core problem with fake roles (aside from fake dds) is that some 4-man content is so easy it doesn't even need a proper tank or a healer. Sometimes you don't even need to be built for it (although it's only the case for base game content). Queuing as a dd is ridiculously long and soloing takes some time, so people just hit any role that wouldn't make you wait half an hour to just get into the dungeon. If a player can survive the fight then it's fine by me.

In case with content that can easily be soloed now, 15% nerf to self healing isn't going to make any difference, aside from rare exceptions (some vdlc dungeons?).

dmnqwk

The obvious problem is that healers themselves have no healing power, meaning all heals scale off output (as someone mentioned). If they tried to affect it so resto staves were altered, we'd just see backbar resto staves on DD.

The self healing was buffed to astronomical highs in the last update:
Self healing Vigor: 30k over 6 seconds AND minor resolve for 20 seconds
Healing others Vigor: 20k over 20 seconds.

What kind of person felt those were positive numbers - someone who didn't consider the bigger picture.
They also buffed tanks self healing, so tanks are capable of dishing out 15k/second self healing so even if you fix a fake tank issue, you're still not really in a position to require that healer to be real in most places.

There are some places where you'll need to pump out heals, but ultimately in those places the tank setting up correctly will STILL negate the requirement for a healer - bone shield, blood altar and their personal overpowered vigors can see a healer's role negated.

The previous update, when they fixed dots, broke hots. Like destroyed hots for 4 person content. Is there a solution? Yes. But it's not as easy as people say. (I mean, maybe apply a debuff that reduces damage done by 75% for 2 seconds after using a restoration staff skill, but that hardly seems fair for healers in other situations)

MidniteOwl1913

dmnqwk wrote: »

The obvious problem is that healers themselves have no healing power, meaning all heals scale off output (as someone mentioned). If they tried to affect it so resto staves were altered, we'd just see backbar resto staves on DD.

The self healing was buffed to astronomical highs in the last update:
Self healing Vigor: 30k over 6 seconds AND minor resolve for 20 seconds
Healing others Vigor: 20k over 20 seconds.

What kind of person felt those were positive numbers - someone who didn't consider the bigger picture.
They also buffed tanks self healing, so tanks are capable of dishing out 15k/second self healing so even if you fix a fake tank issue, you're still not really in a position to require that healer to be real in most places.

There are some places where you'll need to pump out heals, but ultimately in those places the tank setting up correctly will STILL negate the requirement for a healer - bone shield, blood altar and their personal overpowered vigors can see a healer's role negated.

The previous update, when they fixed dots, broke hots. Like destroyed hots for 4 person content. Is there a solution? Yes. But it's not as easy as people say. (I mean, maybe apply a debuff that reduces damage done by 75% for 2 seconds after using a restoration staff skill, but that hardly seems fair for healers in other situations)

The nerf to echoing vigor is in 36, in 35 it's still 35k over 16 sec. Healing got hit hard in 35 in part in response to PVP complaints about ball groups and "stacked heals". (They are the way still calling for more healing nerfs and I think the change to echoing vigor is in response to that).

The other thing is I think that the present combat dev team doesn't really support the idea of the 3 roles. They have made both healing and tanking harder less rewarding less fun and for a majority of content a lot less needed. I don't expect the state of tanking or healing to improve anytime soon.

Amottica

dsalter wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.

Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.

the trinity you so call "forced" is already forced in trials

It is not forced. I have seen a video where a DPS helped with healing in a trial. I believe it was progression where they needed some extra healing to help them get through the trial, where two alternate bosses drop into the fight. vAS. I have also seen trials where the OT was a DPS tank in some fights.

It is just that with more challenging content, many groups find that defining roles for each player is the most efficient. That is not forced but a choice.

It is no different from our choices when forming a dungeon group. The only difference is when asking the GF to find a random group, the player is giving up the choice of deciding what each player will do as well as how good their build is and how well they will play.

When asking for a random group, one is asking for potluck. The real fix to the fake tank problem is fixing the reason real tanks such as myself, refuse to go for the random group thing.

dmnqwk

Amottica wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.

Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.

the trinity you so call "forced" is already forced in trials

It is not forced. I have seen a video where a DPS helped with healing in a trial. I believe it was progression where they needed some extra healing to help them get through the trial, where two alternate bosses drop into the fight. vAS. I have also seen trials where the OT was a DPS tank in some fights.

It is just that with more challenging content, many groups find that defining roles for each player is the most efficient. That is not forced but a choice.

It is no different from our choices when forming a dungeon group. The only difference is when asking the GF to find a random group, the player is giving up the choice of deciding what each player will do as well as how good their build is and how well they will play.

When asking for a random group, one is asking for potluck. The real fix to the fake tank problem is fixing the reason real tanks such as myself, refuse to go for the random group thing.

It's important to understand that it can be forced and still allow for transition.

A good example would be in another game, when I was tanking on the back of a dragon as a bear, but had to reforge all of my gear into dps to help meet a really strict burst timer it had. So I was extra super mega squishy (and reliant on cooldowns a lot more than usual) but destroyed the tendrils.

ESO is very special in that it has tanks working as buff bots to a degree way in excess of any other MMO I have played (if one exists let me know, it definitely is possible), which reinforces the notion that the holy trinity is still in full effect. Removing healers was seen in Guild Wars 2 initially (as a Guild Wars 1 monk, I wasn't exactly pleased at the time) and I think that feeling has stretched into ESO very heavily - self survival based on personal healing as opposed to mechanic avoidance.

As a real tank player (4 of my 8 chars have tank sets, 2 have healer sets, all 8 have dps sets saved in armory) I run hybrid tank setups on each of them to provide around 20-30k dps single target on bosses to allow them to run normal dungeons and not be beholden to the RNG of whether the dps will bring 5k each or 50k.

I think a lot of the issues are generated by the lack of structure in classes - each player can be a tank, healer and dd in the same build so creating a scenario where only healers can heal to full strength, tanks have 30-60% dps of a DD (that is from my experience of MMOs over the last 20-25 years) and DD/tanks can chip into other roles where necessary for short periods. But it has benefits too, so I don't think ESO will ever find a way to fix the situation.

me_ming

This is exactly why I wasn't 100% on board with classes having a tanking/healing/dps skill lines.

Stinkyremy

This is such a noobish question.
People don't understand the roles.
Firstly, tank debuffs enemies, buff DDs, brings in adds to aoes and holds boss aggro so DDs can just drop aoes never need to kite or be in defence manoeuvrers and can focus single targetting boss
Increasing DPS!

Healers bubble tanks, buff DDs, debuff boss and adds , heal DDs meaning DDs dont need to self heal, leaving DDs with at least 1 or 2 extra slots for skills and further reducing their time they need to self heal
Further increasing DPS.

While it may seem it is better or faster for 4 DD to run content, the irony is in most cases it is actually more economical and more DPS to have a traditional 4 man team.
Though of course the issue there is the skill quality of the people playing the roles.
One crap tank and a dungeon is ruined, 2 dds with low DPS and you will be in a dungeon forever or they just die constantly.

stevenyaub16_ESO

That role buff/debuff won't work. It would actually make it easier for them to fake tank.

There is only one sure fire way to get rid of fake tanks. Make non-DLC vet dungeons as hard as DLC ones.

If people complain about difficult they can just do normal mode. (Give more keys for normal).

svendf

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

They do have a problem with it. They have essentially made Tank and or Healer worthless. There are people that 4 DPS things like vDSA. You shouldn't be able to do an Arena like that with 4 dps, I don't think there should really be any self healing or it should all be nerfed pretty hard.

I dont´beleive they care about it, if they did they would have fixed it by now. I fore one are happy I don´t have to deal with this anymore.

Im on the observing side of it all. Where will it all be in a two year´s time from now. I like the idear of being able to solo and don´t have to spend time on grouping up and forced into group content. People want to spend time on, what they like. MMO´s are going into that direction. That said. ESO seems to be in some sort of strougle, finding the right path, so people don´t get in between and griefed out of the game.

Self heals are too strong in this game and can colide with solo areanas, because they apparently are not allighned in a way it should be - with a self heal nerf people will probebly strougle more, than they want to. They can up the dps or nerf content or scaleing, so all have a chance to get involved.

If you main a Tank, Healer or both, you will fall between two chairs if you fancy content in the lower end of the scale.

Good luck

Everest_Lionheart

The fake tank issue is really only an issue when the DPS queueing as fake doesn’t understand the mechs and runs all around the room dragging the boss out of AOE’s instead of learning which attacks you can block and which attacks you have to roll. Now granted an actual tank can block through most of them but certain heavy attacks will still 1 shot a DPS through a block with full health.

It also doesn’t help when you have a bow/bow fake healer wearing pale order ring and spamming snipe in the back either. I seem to get multiple queues daily with both support roles as fakes. Now an organized group can 4 DPS vet DLC because they can coordinate the roles a bit, but PUG runs usually end up going off the rails and getting ugly really fast.

It’s as one poster mentioned above more DPS does not necessarily equal more DPS when there are zero buffs, zero debuffs, excess deaths and the boss is running all around the room..

OBJnoob

If youre accepting a random group as your means to an end then you have to also accept that they will be of varying skill levels and desires. The trade-off is that you can get a group "fast" even if you have no friends online to assist. Its a decent deal, really, as we know or we wouldn't keep queing. But if anybody dislikes it so much there is a solution that already exists and I think we know what it is. But that will come with the reverse trade-off. So. Pick your poison. And do your best to swallow it.

Einar_Hrafnarsson

I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.

rootkitronin

Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »

I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.

Fake DPS? How does that even work? An what kind of content are you talking about?

I can understand poor or bad DPS, but fake?

I thought for healer and tank roles you generally have to spec into specific skills and functions - that leaves DPS as just the default. So is it more just very poorly optimized/performing DPS, or am I missing some way people are "faking" the role?