The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Elemental Susceptibility doing too much for no cost
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the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.0 -
Didgerion✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Well you see you cut half of my context.
I specifically mentioned NBs and DKs since they don't really need a resto staff due to good self heal skills they have.
And DKs can use frost staff to compensate for 1h+shield.
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DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »it costs a bar slot. And most capable will prefer something stronger in that slot. Yes it's strong(er) spell now, but there's still better options to slot instead
No. Major breach is the strongest damage modifier in the game in terms of PVP, assuming you aren't going to overpen. Any competent solo or damage dealing PVP setup will have a source of major breach, or it will be sacrificing a huge amount of damage potential. As someone else mentioned, this free to cast skill vastly outclasses most sources of class based breach, and it will become meta for that reason on most specs.
It's not even just major breach. Ele drain and ele susceptibility have been in the game for years. This new version is giving 6k pen, 5% damage taken, 10% crit damage taken, 5% reduced damage done, a dot, and two instances of direct damage on cast and every 6 seconds after for 30 seconds. For free. I don't know how you could suggest that "there's better sources or abilities", when in probably 8/10 cases this ability will be the clear winner.
Yeah I have a hard time believing that this will not be overly adopted by most brawler builds. The free DPS increases are going to run rampant and punish anyone without a templar or someone running purge in the group. I'm already thinking about how I can fit it into my NB build simply out of necessity. This is going to be yet again another situation where devs completely underestimate the ends players will go to take advantage of their drastic miscalculation of a skill or set power level.
I think the fact that you have to equip a destruction staff instead of something else is going to dissuade a lot of people.
There's really no major drawback to running a backbar staff. If it's about replacing S/B then you just run ice staff. I wager most vets and sweaties will be running it and it will be very annoying to say the least. Then you'll have a million threads of "I told you so" and "you guys are killing PVP" just like every time they make this kind of miscalculation on power level of a skill or set. You have end game players, streamers and content creators who seem to know more about the game population and how players react to new gear than the people behind the scenes.I drink and I stream things.
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Didgerion✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »it costs a bar slot. And most capable will prefer something stronger in that slot. Yes it's strong(er) spell now, but there's still better options to slot instead
No. Major breach is the strongest damage modifier in the game in terms of PVP, assuming you aren't going to overpen. Any competent solo or damage dealing PVP setup will have a source of major breach, or it will be sacrificing a huge amount of damage potential. As someone else mentioned, this free to cast skill vastly outclasses most sources of class based breach, and it will become meta for that reason on most specs.
It's not even just major breach. Ele drain and ele susceptibility have been in the game for years. This new version is giving 6k pen, 5% damage taken, 10% crit damage taken, 5% reduced damage done, a dot, and two instances of direct damage on cast and every 6 seconds after for 30 seconds. For free. I don't know how you could suggest that "there's better sources or abilities", when in probably 8/10 cases this ability will be the clear winner.
Yeah I have a hard time believing that this will not be overly adopted by most brawler builds. The free DPS increases are going to run rampant and punish anyone without a templar or someone running purge in the group. I'm already thinking about how I can fit it into my NB build simply out of necessity. This is going to be yet again another situation where devs completely underestimate the ends players will go to take advantage of their drastic miscalculation of a skill or set power level.
I think the fact that you have to equip a destruction staff instead of something else is going to dissuade a lot of people.
There's really no major drawback to running a backbar staff. If it's about replacing S/B then you just run ice staff. I wager most vets and sweaties will be running it and it will be very annoying to say the least. Then you'll have a million threads of "I told you so" and "you guys are killing PVP" just like every time they make this kind of miscalculation on power level of a skill or set. You have end game players, streamers and content creators who seem to know more about the game population and how players react to new gear than the people behind the scenes.
We've seen it many times developers underestimating players' creativity.
The skill is already broadly used in PVP and they make it even stronger.1 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
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marius_buys✭✭✭✭✭
✭too strong, almost the oakensoul version of skills
Edited by marius_buys on October 31, 2022 2:08AMGM Golden Clover - PC EU (since 2017) Guildex https://eso.guildex.org/view-guild/17669 Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/1312113207951960 -
Melzo✭✭✭✭Well, yes, you need to nerf a great skill. Instead of improving other skills, you are talking about breaking a normal skill here. I guess due to the fact that zos listen to your opinion and not opinions for adequate changes, we get such crappy pvp metas where only one sorcerer fights in ranged combat, since the staff of destruction is already in the ass ...0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube2 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Suggesting I don't fight veteran players is laughable. I've put over 12k hours into eso PVP across two servers. Solo pvp, small scale, and dueling tournament wins.
You shouldn't need resto heavy attacks for sustain if you're built properly in the current meta. Resto ult is decent sure, but nobody is going to slot a resto staff just for that. The benefits of additional block mitigation vastly outweigh those that a resto staff could offer, for most specs.
The extra resistances from a reinforced shield + defending 1h vs a defending ice staff are negligible.
How does ele susceptibility not help "if you're melee?" What does that even mean? Are you under some impression that it can't be cast in melee range? I'm really not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
DK MIGHT consider using noxious over ele susceptibility, but not because it's really a better skill - it's simply more suitable for the DK toolkit as a source of poisoned and a way to proc molten whip stacks. If you're not using molten whip, you would absolutley choose ele susceptibility over noxious breath.
Warden doesn't need it because of deep fissure.
It completely outclasses nightblade mark.
It completely outclasses necromancer boneyard.
Sorc and templar don't have class based sources of breach, and ele susceptibility is by far the best option for both classes.
You suggesting that inner light is providing you with "0.5k more dps than breach" is telling of your lack of understanding about this topic.@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
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FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Just some small math here for you mate:
Most PvP builds sit around 30-35% crit chance with major prophecy/savagery without investing into crit with sets like orders wrath etc.
Lets say we sit at 32% with major prophecy/savagery, meaning we would sit at 20% without it. Assuming a 80% crit damage modifier and some rather low crit resistance of 30% of the enemy (meaning our crits do 50% more damage than normal attacks), you will see an average damage or dps increase of 5.45% by having access to major prophecy/savagery.
On the other hand major breach provides 5948 penetration, which is pretty much 9% less mitigation for the enemy. Assuming the enemy sits on the lower end of resistances buffed with like 23k resistances (equal to 35% armor mitigation) and you already have lets say 10k penetration (which is pretty much equal to 15%), the enemies has a total of 13k armor left and mitigates 20% of your damage. Major breach reduces that amount to 11%, which is a damage increase of 13.7%.
Summary:
Major prophecy/savagery is around a 5.45% damage increase.
Major breach is around a 13.7% damage increase.
(Naturally both values vary depending on your and your enemies stats, if they differ from my example, but nowhere comes major prophecy/savagery close to major breach.)
Edited by FirmamentOfStars on November 1, 2022 9:37AM1 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Suggesting I don't fight veteran players is laughable. I've put over 12k hours into eso PVP across two servers. Solo pvp, small scale, and dueling tournament wins.
You shouldn't need resto heavy attacks for sustain if you're built properly in the current meta. Resto ult is decent sure, but nobody is going to slot a resto staff just for that. The benefits of additional block mitigation vastly outweigh those that a resto staff could offer, for most specs.
The extra resistances from a reinforced shield + defending 1h vs a defending ice staff are negligible.
How does ele susceptibility not help "if you're melee?" What does that even mean? Are you under some impression that it can't be cast in melee range? I'm really not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
DK MIGHT consider using noxious over ele susceptibility, but not because it's really a better skill - it's simply more suitable for the DK toolkit as a source of poisoned and a way to proc molten whip stacks. If you're not using molten whip, you would absolutley choose ele susceptibility over noxious breath.
Warden doesn't need it because of deep fissure.
It completely outclasses nightblade mark.
It completely outclasses necromancer boneyard.
Sorc and templar don't have class based sources of breach, and ele susceptibility is by far the best option for both classes.
You suggesting that inner light is providing you with "0.5k more dps than breach" is telling of your lack of understanding about this topic.
"solo pvp" is too vague, you mean going with nb through cryodill or imp city ganking? or fighting bunch of weak players that barely know to heal themselves. Small scale same story. Dueling? you mean cheese 1v1 builds that are the bottom line balance when it comes to pvp. But this is not the topic here.
i survive much more often with resto ult, and slotting resto staff just for that, than using a board ult or vamp ult which is more expensive. "Block mitigation" you talk about means staying on backbar and turtling. What you need is to self heal asap and fight back, this is what resto ult does and it excels at it.
EDIT: forgot to mention that resto heavy also gives u major mending to go with that vigor and direct heal followed after it
ele sus in melee i meant that if i am a dk, i will use breath anyway since it's such an useful spell, i wouldn't need to slot ele sus for it. And i am a melee dk i won't use destro staff either, so again no ele sus. I said already that it is a good option for ranged players but not as good as other spells, even something like Inner Light is comparable in terms of damage and spares you a gcd too.
it's not lack of understanding, i tried and played with both spells and i get same results, both in fights and on dummy, slightly better with passive slot. Also it could happen often that targets already have breach from other players, which is an extra bonus
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Edited by Sergykid on November 1, 2022 9:46AM-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's not forget Warden's Chill now scales of max stats so for them even if they have Breach in Shalks they can still consider using it because they are now pidgeonholed into using frost staff.0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Suggesting I don't fight veteran players is laughable. I've put over 12k hours into eso PVP across two servers. Solo pvp, small scale, and dueling tournament wins.
You shouldn't need resto heavy attacks for sustain if you're built properly in the current meta. Resto ult is decent sure, but nobody is going to slot a resto staff just for that. The benefits of additional block mitigation vastly outweigh those that a resto staff could offer, for most specs.
The extra resistances from a reinforced shield + defending 1h vs a defending ice staff are negligible.
How does ele susceptibility not help "if you're melee?" What does that even mean? Are you under some impression that it can't be cast in melee range? I'm really not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
DK MIGHT consider using noxious over ele susceptibility, but not because it's really a better skill - it's simply more suitable for the DK toolkit as a source of poisoned and a way to proc molten whip stacks. If you're not using molten whip, you would absolutley choose ele susceptibility over noxious breath.
Warden doesn't need it because of deep fissure.
It completely outclasses nightblade mark.
It completely outclasses necromancer boneyard.
Sorc and templar don't have class based sources of breach, and ele susceptibility is by far the best option for both classes.
You suggesting that inner light is providing you with "0.5k more dps than breach" is telling of your lack of understanding about this topic.
"solo pvp" is too vague, you mean going with nb through cryodill or imp city ganking? or fighting bunch of weak players that barely know to heal themselves. Small scale same story. Dueling? you mean cheese 1v1 builds that are the bottom line balance when it comes to pvp. But this is not the topic here.
i survive much more often with resto ult, and slotting resto staff just for that, than using a board ult or vamp ult which is more expensive. "Block mitigation" you talk about means staying on backbar and turtling. What you need is to self heal asap and fight back, this is what resto ult does and it excels at it.
EDIT: forgot to mention that resto heavy also gives u major mending to go with that vigor and direct heal followed after it
ele sus in melee i meant that if i am a dk, i will use breath anyway since it's such an useful spell, i wouldn't need to slot ele sus for it. And i am a melee dk i won't use destro staff either, so again no ele sus. I said already that it is a good option for ranged players but not as good as other spells, even something like Inner Light is comparable in terms of damage and spares you a gcd too.
it's not lack of understanding, i tried and played with both spells and i get same results, both in fights and on dummy, slightly better with passive slot. Also it could happen often that targets already have breach from other players, which is an extra bonus
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Why are you arguing that much about resto staff here, its not really relevant. As others mentioned, resto staff and resto ult has its uses, but it is not meta. Block mitigation for sure is very strong, many people consider it being broken and that mostly applies to snb or ice staff users. In then end its a preference and most people tend to prefer block over resto.
Also in your place I highly suggest trying the new ele susciptibility over noxious breath even on dk. Noxious breath is not bad, but it costs stam and applies a pretty weak dot. Ele susciptibility is free, gives you magicka back right away, since dks restore that when applying burning, it applies a dot aswell, it applies minor maim, minor vulnerability and chilled aka brittle.
I would take ele susciptibility any day over breath next patch, especially since so many dks play around a lot of negative effects and status effects. And if you want poisened, then just use venomous claw, which applies it on cast and is a much stronger dot aswell.
And no, it is about the lack of understanding here, since you do not even realize, that major breach has much more damage value than mage light (see the math post before).0 -
Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭FirmamentOfStars wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Suggesting I don't fight veteran players is laughable. I've put over 12k hours into eso PVP across two servers. Solo pvp, small scale, and dueling tournament wins.
You shouldn't need resto heavy attacks for sustain if you're built properly in the current meta. Resto ult is decent sure, but nobody is going to slot a resto staff just for that. The benefits of additional block mitigation vastly outweigh those that a resto staff could offer, for most specs.
The extra resistances from a reinforced shield + defending 1h vs a defending ice staff are negligible.
How does ele susceptibility not help "if you're melee?" What does that even mean? Are you under some impression that it can't be cast in melee range? I'm really not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
DK MIGHT consider using noxious over ele susceptibility, but not because it's really a better skill - it's simply more suitable for the DK toolkit as a source of poisoned and a way to proc molten whip stacks. If you're not using molten whip, you would absolutley choose ele susceptibility over noxious breath.
Warden doesn't need it because of deep fissure.
It completely outclasses nightblade mark.
It completely outclasses necromancer boneyard.
Sorc and templar don't have class based sources of breach, and ele susceptibility is by far the best option for both classes.
You suggesting that inner light is providing you with "0.5k more dps than breach" is telling of your lack of understanding about this topic.
"solo pvp" is too vague, you mean going with nb through cryodill or imp city ganking? or fighting bunch of weak players that barely know to heal themselves. Small scale same story. Dueling? you mean cheese 1v1 builds that are the bottom line balance when it comes to pvp. But this is not the topic here.
i survive much more often with resto ult, and slotting resto staff just for that, than using a board ult or vamp ult which is more expensive. "Block mitigation" you talk about means staying on backbar and turtling. What you need is to self heal asap and fight back, this is what resto ult does and it excels at it.
EDIT: forgot to mention that resto heavy also gives u major mending to go with that vigor and direct heal followed after it
ele sus in melee i meant that if i am a dk, i will use breath anyway since it's such an useful spell, i wouldn't need to slot ele sus for it. And i am a melee dk i won't use destro staff either, so again no ele sus. I said already that it is a good option for ranged players but not as good as other spells, even something like Inner Light is comparable in terms of damage and spares you a gcd too.
it's not lack of understanding, i tried and played with both spells and i get same results, both in fights and on dummy, slightly better with passive slot. Also it could happen often that targets already have breach from other players, which is an extra bonus
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Why are you arguing that much about resto staff here, its not really relevant. As others mentioned, resto staff and resto ult has its uses, but it is not meta. Block mitigation for sure is very strong, many people consider it being broken and that mostly applies to snb or ice staff users. In then end its a preference and most people tend to prefer block over resto.
Also in your place I highly suggest trying the new ele susciptibility over noxious breath even on dk. Noxious breath is not bad, but it costs stam and applies a pretty weak dot. Ele susciptibility is free, gives you magicka back right away, since dks restore that when applying burning, it applies a dot aswell, it applies minor maim, minor vulnerability and chilled aka brittle.
I would take ele susciptibility any day over breath next patch, especially since so many dks play around a lot of negative effects and status effects. And if you want poisened, then just use venomous claw, which applies it on cast and is a much stronger dot aswell.
And no, it is about the lack of understanding here, since you do not even realize, that major breach has much more damage value than mage light (see the math post before).
block mit will help u turtle while you heal back, while resto heals me back faster. Anyone plays what they prefer but from my experience going behind a pillar and healing back faster helps more than standing in my enemy's face to block his attacks better. I played with both board and resto and i wouldn't go to board at all.
dual wield gives more weapon damage, two enchant procs, stronger light attacks. Destro can be good enough too but wouldn't call it "much better" rather "just as good", maybe better on dk cuz of the mag restore proc, but wouldn't call it generally better because of one example.
u fight from a spreadsheet here, that crit would mean diff between getting the kill or not. My attack doing 5k instead of 3k will mean kill, while doing 4k instead of 3k will mean not kill. Also inner light has 7% more mag and some sustain, also detecting cloakers if needed.
And i don't counter argue that breach gives more damage, my dummy parses and metrics from battlegrounds weren't much different in favor of breach. Players also cleanse or already have breach on them. Ele sus is good sure, but has conditions, while other spells like for example inner light can be generally useful just as good.
-Edited by Sergykid on November 1, 2022 12:12PM-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Suggesting I don't fight veteran players is laughable. I've put over 12k hours into eso PVP across two servers. Solo pvp, small scale, and dueling tournament wins.
You shouldn't need resto heavy attacks for sustain if you're built properly in the current meta. Resto ult is decent sure, but nobody is going to slot a resto staff just for that. The benefits of additional block mitigation vastly outweigh those that a resto staff could offer, for most specs.
The extra resistances from a reinforced shield + defending 1h vs a defending ice staff are negligible.
How does ele susceptibility not help "if you're melee?" What does that even mean? Are you under some impression that it can't be cast in melee range? I'm really not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
DK MIGHT consider using noxious over ele susceptibility, but not because it's really a better skill - it's simply more suitable for the DK toolkit as a source of poisoned and a way to proc molten whip stacks. If you're not using molten whip, you would absolutley choose ele susceptibility over noxious breath.
Warden doesn't need it because of deep fissure.
It completely outclasses nightblade mark.
It completely outclasses necromancer boneyard.
Sorc and templar don't have class based sources of breach, and ele susceptibility is by far the best option for both classes.
You suggesting that inner light is providing you with "0.5k more dps than breach" is telling of your lack of understanding about this topic.
"solo pvp" is too vague, you mean going with nb through cryodill or imp city ganking? or fighting bunch of weak players that barely know to heal themselves. Small scale same story. Dueling? you mean cheese 1v1 builds that are the bottom line balance when it comes to pvp. But this is not the topic here.
i survive much more often with resto ult, and slotting resto staff just for that, than using a board ult or vamp ult which is more expensive. "Block mitigation" you talk about means staying on backbar and turtling. What you need is to self heal asap and fight back, this is what resto ult does and it excels at it.
EDIT: forgot to mention that resto heavy also gives u major mending to go with that vigor and direct heal followed after it
ele sus in melee i meant that if i am a dk, i will use breath anyway since it's such an useful spell, i wouldn't need to slot ele sus for it. And i am a melee dk i won't use destro staff either, so again no ele sus. I said already that it is a good option for ranged players but not as good as other spells, even something like Inner Light is comparable in terms of damage and spares you a gcd too.
it's not lack of understanding, i tried and played with both spells and i get same results, both in fights and on dummy, slightly better with passive slot. Also it could happen often that targets already have breach from other players, which is an extra bonus
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The fact you're trying to brush off React as some nobody is pretty ridiculous, and I say this as someone who has had disagreements with him in the past. He's absolutely right.
With the new ES, you get:
Free major breach. Every 6 seconds it will reapply Burning, chilled and concussed. All for free. EVERY 6 SECONDS this gets you:
Four second Burning Dot that can be doubled by DK passive.
Chilled gives you instant damage plus minor maim (decreases target damage output) AND minor brittle (increases crit damage against target by 10%).
Concussed hits you with a lightning damage tick AND applies minor vulnerability (increases target damage taken by 5%).
All for free. Reapplied every 6 seconds without hitting a button. How in the world do you not see this as a massive advantage? PVP is all about stacking numbers. This stacks so many numbers it would be stupid to not run it and defensively, in the current meta, there is no great need to run a resto staff or s/b.
The issue isn't what it does so much as the fact it is free and requires no reapplication. I would be less concerned by this if it did the following:
No cost.
Major Breach for 30 seconds.
On cast, apply burning, chilled and concussed for 4 seconds but NO reapplication. Force people to at least put it in a rotation instead of just giving lazy damage in a meta where damage and healing are already so high people can just skirt around on battle tanks.I drink and I stream things.
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Caribou77✭✭✭✭✭This may be a niche/narrow consideration, but it is currently the only source of major breach MagSorc has, and MS is really struggling in pvp these days.
So while all of the previous comments noting that the changes will be OP for DK and NB may be accurate, the buffs to the skill would help poor MS.
Still, seems there are a bunch of better ways to buff MagSorc than this. Like give them a class skill with breach.Edited by Caribou77 on November 2, 2022 1:17AM0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭This may be a niche/narrow consideration, but it is currently the only source of major breach MagSorc has, and MS is really struggling in pvp these days.
So while all of the previous comments noting that the changes will be OP for DK and NB may be accurate, the buffs to the skill would help poor MS.
Still, seems there are a bunch of better ways to buff MagSorc than this. Like give them a class skill with breach.
Elemental weakness already gives free major breach. The issue here is that have turned it into an offensive powerhouse that costs nothing. Every other skill that gives breach costs something and even those skills, like mark target, are nowhere near as good as this new version of elemental susceptibility that is a completely free cast.
Why would I run mark target than only gives me a damage boost after I kill the target when I can just automatically reapply all those free damage increases with ES?I drink and I stream things.
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Sergykid✭✭✭✭✭
✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
Sure, but in that case it also prevents them from equipping a 1h+shield or resto staff back bar, both of which are probably going to be better than a destro staff in most PvP situations, even with Elemental Susceptibility.
Ice staff gives the same base block mitigation and block cost reduction that s&b gives, it just has slightly less resistances. Nearly all of the top PVP builds are hybrid now, and the majority of them are using ice staff backbar with dual wield frontbar. Most people don't slot a resto now either, as vigor has completley outclassed rapid regen as a HOT and it gives minor resolve.
Your statement that "s&b and resto are going to be better backbar than a destro staff in most situations" is flat out untrue and not representative of the current meta.
don't know what fights u get but i guess it's not against veteran players often.
u use resto staff for the ult, and more mag restore. That extra defenses from board matter, board also gives more projectiles defense.
if for example u r melee, using ele sus won't help u. As a dk, breath is a good enough skill to not replace it with ele sus.
as for range, i personally tested and on average i get 0.5k more dps with something like inner light instead of major breach. Insignificant but my point is that it's not as important as it seems.
as i said previously, a good spell becoming better but not gonna become standard meta everywhere, just like maras seemed to be and isn't.
Suggesting I don't fight veteran players is laughable. I've put over 12k hours into eso PVP across two servers. Solo pvp, small scale, and dueling tournament wins.
You shouldn't need resto heavy attacks for sustain if you're built properly in the current meta. Resto ult is decent sure, but nobody is going to slot a resto staff just for that. The benefits of additional block mitigation vastly outweigh those that a resto staff could offer, for most specs.
The extra resistances from a reinforced shield + defending 1h vs a defending ice staff are negligible.
How does ele susceptibility not help "if you're melee?" What does that even mean? Are you under some impression that it can't be cast in melee range? I'm really not sure what you're trying to suggest here.
DK MIGHT consider using noxious over ele susceptibility, but not because it's really a better skill - it's simply more suitable for the DK toolkit as a source of poisoned and a way to proc molten whip stacks. If you're not using molten whip, you would absolutley choose ele susceptibility over noxious breath.
Warden doesn't need it because of deep fissure.
It completely outclasses nightblade mark.
It completely outclasses necromancer boneyard.
Sorc and templar don't have class based sources of breach, and ele susceptibility is by far the best option for both classes.
You suggesting that inner light is providing you with "0.5k more dps than breach" is telling of your lack of understanding about this topic.
"solo pvp" is too vague, you mean going with nb through cryodill or imp city ganking? or fighting bunch of weak players that barely know to heal themselves. Small scale same story. Dueling? you mean cheese 1v1 builds that are the bottom line balance when it comes to pvp. But this is not the topic here.
i survive much more often with resto ult, and slotting resto staff just for that, than using a board ult or vamp ult which is more expensive. "Block mitigation" you talk about means staying on backbar and turtling. What you need is to self heal asap and fight back, this is what resto ult does and it excels at it.
EDIT: forgot to mention that resto heavy also gives u major mending to go with that vigor and direct heal followed after it
ele sus in melee i meant that if i am a dk, i will use breath anyway since it's such an useful spell, i wouldn't need to slot ele sus for it. And i am a melee dk i won't use destro staff either, so again no ele sus. I said already that it is a good option for ranged players but not as good as other spells, even something like Inner Light is comparable in terms of damage and spares you a gcd too.
it's not lack of understanding, i tried and played with both spells and i get same results, both in fights and on dummy, slightly better with passive slot. Also it could happen often that targets already have breach from other players, which is an extra bonus
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The fact you're trying to brush off React as some nobody is pretty ridiculous, and I say this as someone who has had disagreements with him in the past. He's absolutely right.
With the new ES, you get: [...]
"brush off" ... what? i don't know or care what or who, i don't blindly praise whatever x youtuber/streamer says or does. Most of them just state the obvious and act like they share the secret to win at the game, while most just fight lower players to look cool on killings. So i don't care about that at all, i am just replying from what i read personally and not whatever else thinks outside of here.
i did try a few battlegrounds the new ele sus, wasn't that impressed and i go back to passive slot inner light. Sure it's a good spell, just as good and a bit better now, but it's still a matter of preference, and like any other things it's better in some cases and worse in other cases. Remains a good choice for most scenarios but i never said i am against this option.-PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube0 -
Aces-High-82✭✭✭This may be a niche/narrow consideration, but it is currently the only source of major breach MagSorc has, and MS is really struggling in pvp these days.
So while all of the previous comments noting that the changes will be OP for DK and NB may be accurate, the buffs to the skill would help poor MS.
Still, seems there are a bunch of better ways to buff MagSorc than this. Like give them a class skill with breach.
Elemental weakness already gives free major breach. The issue here is that have turned it into an offensive powerhouse that costs nothing. Every other skill that gives breach costs something and even those skills, like mark target, are nowhere near as good as this new version of elemental susceptibility that is a completely free cast.
Why would I run mark target than only gives me a damage boost after I kill the target when I can just automatically reapply all those free damage increases with ES?
You realize that you have to equip a destro to use the skill - see it as a compensation for its lacking base damage and lacking passives. Be it on front or backbar, every other weapon offers more.... even mediocre bow on magtoons with major expedition and higher chc.2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »This may be a niche/narrow consideration, but it is currently the only source of major breach MagSorc has, and MS is really struggling in pvp these days.
So while all of the previous comments noting that the changes will be OP for DK and NB may be accurate, the buffs to the skill would help poor MS.
Still, seems there are a bunch of better ways to buff MagSorc than this. Like give them a class skill with breach.
Elemental weakness already gives free major breach. The issue here is that have turned it into an offensive powerhouse that costs nothing. Every other skill that gives breach costs something and even those skills, like mark target, are nowhere near as good as this new version of elemental susceptibility that is a completely free cast.
Why would I run mark target than only gives me a damage boost after I kill the target when I can just automatically reapply all those free damage increases with ES?
You realize that you have to equip a destro to use the skill - see it as a compensation for its lacking base damage and lacking passives. Be it on front or backbar, every other weapon offers more.... even mediocre bow on magtoons with major expedition and higher chc.
As has been pointed out repeatedly there is no drawback to running a destroy backbar and trying to paint it otherwise is disingenuous. The only reason most people don't now has nothing to do with damage or survivability and everything to do with the fact that those players just aren't using destro abilities atm.
It wasn't too long ago that impulse was being spammed at every battle and that wasn't even a tank meta where the weapons most people wear where mostly inconsequential like we have now.
This happens every time one of these busted skills or sets are released. There are always players who run in to defend the absurdity because they want to abuse it. It happened with oak, convergence, plague, maras, the initial massive DK buffs, etc etc.
I can't believe we're arguing that a backbar destro staff is some huge sacrifice.I drink and I stream things.
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Aces-High-82✭✭✭Bc it is. Can't remember when I was willing to eqip a destro except destro/Bow on Stamsorc.0
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FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Bc it is. Can't remember when I was willing to eqip a destro except destro/Bow on Stamsorc.
Pretty much most magbuilds currently run dual wield frontbar and ice staff backbar atm: dks, templars, nbs, wardens and necroes. And even some stamspecs as you mentioned stamsorc are using it. People would call that weapon setup meta. At least this is the case for PC EU, which in most cases indicates something.Edited by FirmamentOfStars on November 2, 2022 4:56PM4 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Aces-High-82 wrote: »Bc it is. Can't remember when I was willing to eqip a destro except destro/Bow on Stamsorc.
And this matters why? We aren't talking about you. We're talking about the general population.
It's a free skill the offers an incredible amount of buffs and debuffs for PVP use. If I'm being honest, at the risk of getting flagged, if you require a resto ultimate to stay alive in this meta where everyone can be tanks with massive heals with proc carried damage, then you're in the minority.I drink and I stream things.
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Aces-High-82✭✭✭You run resto for cross healing and/or Stat return plus mending. Nobody needs to rely on the Ult lol3
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Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.
It is a very strong skill. The best of NBs and DKs already run it on the back bar. It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
But then it costs backbar defensive or utility with bow. Yeah you can use ice destro staff but it is not even close to what 1H and shield is, so to use that one skill you still need to sacrifice something.Say no to Toxic Casuals!
I am doing my best, but I am not a native speaker, sorry.
"Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game." - @AlexanderDeLarge2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lughlongarm wrote: »In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.
It is a very strong skill. The best of NBs and DKs already run it on the back bar. It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.
But then it costs backbar defensive or utility with bow. Yeah you can use ice destro staff but it is not even close to what 1H and shield is, so to use that one skill you still need to sacrifice something.
It is nearly the same with ice staff as sword and shield as React pointed out. Is it exact? No but it's not drastically less.
Unless you're playing a perma block tank build, in which case you are in the minority and not going to benefit much from ES anyway, there is no drawback to running an ice staff with ES. You can also run it with Master Staff for a big 4 second burst on top of it.I drink and I stream things.
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warich✭✭✭It's used as a dot or free spammable on wardens since it applies the chilled effect, its definitely too strong.2