Elemental Susceptibility doing too much for no cost

FirmamentOfStars

Weapons
Destruction Staff
Weakness to Elements: Increased the duration of this morph to 30 seconds at its final rank, up from 20.
Elemental Drain (morph): This morph now increases the duration to 60 seconds at its final rank, up from 23.
Elemental Susceptibility (morph):
This morph now applies each elemental status effect (Burning, Chilled, AND Concussed) every 6 seconds, rather than applying a random of the three every 6 seconds.
This morph no longer gains extended duration and now lasts 30 seconds, down from 60.
Fixed an issue where the status effects from this ability could fail to apply.
Increased the range to 35 meters at rank IV, up from 33 meters.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We’re moving around some of the morph diversity here to reinforce use case and define the power of each. Since Elemental Drain focuses on being more of a pure debuff, the duration extension feels more appropriate there, while Elemental Susceptibility reinforces the offensive bonuses we added a few patches back.


This skill already is seen quite often in PvP, since the random status effect procs are adding some nice little bit of damage or utility. But in the PTS notes said skill is buffed (changes are listed above) to cover a 66% uptime of burning, chilled and concussed while already providing major breach for its full duration. So every 6 seconds, you see the small damage portion of all three status effects proccing, you get a nice dot from burning, minor maim plus minor vulnerability. This all comes together in a max range skill with zero cost. In my opinion this skill is doing too much for too little cost.

ESO_Nightingale

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Weapons
Destruction Staff
Weakness to Elements: Increased the duration of this morph to 30 seconds at its final rank, up from 20.
Elemental Drain (morph): This morph now increases the duration to 60 seconds at its final rank, up from 23.
Elemental Susceptibility (morph):
This morph now applies each elemental status effect (Burning, Chilled, AND Concussed) every 6 seconds, rather than applying a random of the three every 6 seconds.
This morph no longer gains extended duration and now lasts 30 seconds, down from 60.
Fixed an issue where the status effects from this ability could fail to apply.
Increased the range to 35 meters at rank IV, up from 33 meters.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
We’re moving around some of the morph diversity here to reinforce use case and define the power of each. Since Elemental Drain focuses on being more of a pure debuff, the duration extension feels more appropriate there, while Elemental Susceptibility reinforces the offensive bonuses we added a few patches back.


This skill already is seen quite often in PvP, since the random status effect procs are adding some nice little bit of damage or utility. But in the PTS notes said skill is buffed (changes are listed above) to cover a 66% uptime of burning, chilled and concussed while already providing major breach for its full duration. So every 6 seconds, you see the small damage portion of all three status effects proccing, you get a nice dot from burning, minor maim plus minor vulnerability. This all comes together in a max range skill with zero cost. In my opinion this skill is doing too much for too little cost.

it's definitely too strong.

Lughlongarm

In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.

FirmamentOfStars

Lughlongarm wrote: »

In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.

Destruction staves are very popular at the moment on the backbar. Yeah the skill slot still is an argument, but lots of builds have some form of major breach in their kit already and might swap for the new elemental susceptibility, since it might outperform their major breach source. Already some builds use it, mostly those with either a vate ice backbar (yes its getting popular again) and master dual wield frontbar. So builds focussing on pressure, dots and status effects. Those builds tend to use serpent‘s disdain to keep up status effects, but that might change aswell.

Lughlongarm

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.

Destruction staves are very popular at the moment on the backbar. Yeah the skill slot still is an argument, but lots of builds have some form of major breach in their kit already and might swap for the new elemental susceptibility, since it might outperform their major breach source. Already some builds use it, mostly those with either a vate ice backbar (yes its getting popular again) and master dual wield frontbar. So builds focussing on pressure, dots and status effects. Those builds tend to use serpent‘s disdain to keep up status effects, but that might change aswell.

I would say its being used, not very popular. I mean Resto staff, 1H+Sheild both probably see more paly. I think even bow back bar is more common but I could be wrong. Dot builds were terrible last patch due the nerfs to dots damage, Mara's Balm being broken and the over healing in PVP(mainly from Vigor). Vate ice backbar with this new morph will see some paly for sure, perhaps could be interesting for a MagDK or withotut Vate for NBs. But I don't see it overtaking the meta or anything like that. I can't find room for this skill on my bar as a Magden main.

FrancisCrawford

Is there a PvE use case for this skill over Razor Caltrops, especially in a 1-4 person group?

I can't quite put one together.

WrathOfInnos

I initially thought it sounded like a nice addition, but honestly it may be too strong. I fear it will completely remove the need for specific elemental builds. Specifically Minor Brittle will be easier than ever to keep up on a support build (likely tank), with 66% uptime minimum just for casting this one free skill every 30s. This will likely remove the need for a dedicated frost DPS (which has been the trend anyway since Warden is STILL bugged in DSR with Shalks not hitting final boss). On top of that, susceptibility will provide Burning, Minor Vulnerability and Minor Maim with equal uptime.

Turtle_Bot

Hard to say, it definitely looks like it could become busted (with the changes to warden passives particularly), but from my preliminary testing on the pts with a magsorc, it didn't really seem to outperform a regular build.

This was with very limited testing though as I haven't had a lot of time, so take these results with a grain of salt.

FrancisCrawford

One advantage might be the ability for any class to inflict Minor Brittle from the back bar, without requiring a Master's staff.

Hmm. Might be tempting for a pet sorcerer, who will be on a 6-second timer anyway.

Still very single-target. Not sure I'd like it except in contexts where I was willing to respec before boss fights, but that's an increasing possibility anyway as I've come to like Oakensouling my way through trash fights ...

FirmamentOfStars

Lughlongarm wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.

Destruction staves are very popular at the moment on the backbar. Yeah the skill slot still is an argument, but lots of builds have some form of major breach in their kit already and might swap for the new elemental susceptibility, since it might outperform their major breach source. Already some builds use it, mostly those with either a vate ice backbar (yes its getting popular again) and master dual wield frontbar. So builds focussing on pressure, dots and status effects. Those builds tend to use serpent‘s disdain to keep up status effects, but that might change aswell.

I would say its being used, not very popular. I mean Resto staff, 1H+Sheild both probably see more paly. I think even bow back bar is more common but I could be wrong. Dot builds were terrible last patch due the nerfs to dots damage, Mara's Balm being broken and the over healing in PVP(mainly from Vigor). Vate ice backbar with this new morph will see some paly for sure, perhaps could be interesting for a MagDK or withotut Vate for NBs. But I don't see it overtaking the meta or anything like that. I can't find room for this skill on my bar as a Magden main.

Duel wield plus ice staff is pretty much on every competitive magicka build right now on PC EU. Magsorc is the exception here. Also hybrid blades and stamsorcs use this weapon combo a lot. Most stamina builds still have snb backbar though, but few already try out vate or master ice staves on stamina classes already.

Lughlongarm

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.

Destruction staves are very popular at the moment on the backbar. Yeah the skill slot still is an argument, but lots of builds have some form of major breach in their kit already and might swap for the new elemental susceptibility, since it might outperform their major breach source. Already some builds use it, mostly those with either a vate ice backbar (yes its getting popular again) and master dual wield frontbar. So builds focussing on pressure, dots and status effects. Those builds tend to use serpent‘s disdain to keep up status effects, but that might change aswell.

I would say its being used, not very popular. I mean Resto staff, 1H+Sheild both probably see more paly. I think even bow back bar is more common but I could be wrong. Dot builds were terrible last patch due the nerfs to dots damage, Mara's Balm being broken and the over healing in PVP(mainly from Vigor). Vate ice backbar with this new morph will see some paly for sure, perhaps could be interesting for a MagDK or withotut Vate for NBs. But I don't see it overtaking the meta or anything like that. I can't find room for this skill on my bar as a Magden main.

Duel wield plus ice staff is pretty much on every competitive magicka build right now on PC EU. Magsorc is the exception here. Also hybrid blades and stamsorcs use this weapon combo a lot. Most stamina builds still have snb backbar though, but few already try out vate or master ice staves on stamina classes already.

Ya, perhaps you are right, I reconsidering my previous statements .Ice staff bar bar seems much more popular after the nerfs rapid regen and the boost to Vigor. Perhaps this set provides stronger synergies with "Stamina" toons than I have initially considered. Perhaps a 10 sec CD will be more healthy.

xDeusEJRx

This change is a little too overloaded. I use it already on live, especially for PVP. Even though it applies 1 status effect on live, you can spam the ability to re-roll for a new status effect. I've tested it before, if you want to stack status effects, you can re-apply the effect and it instantly re-rolls for a new elemental effect.

So on live it's possible to get multiple effects up at once because it applies an effect on cast.
This change just makes it so you no longer need to do this, but that same process can apply, just keep spamming it and now you have all effects up at all time because the effects apply on cast.

Long range major breach, 5% damage taken, a free burning dot, and 10% crit damage done all instantly on cast.
It's definitely an overloaded buff, despite the decrease in timer. That is irrelevant if you can just re-cast it to get every buff back

React

Yeah, this skill 100% is overbuffed.

I mean, let's draw a comparison to nightblade mark. A far more niche skill in terms of its secondary effects, that was given a cost because of them. How is elemental susceptibility free when Mark received a cost?

Another interesting comparison is the asylum destro staff. Ele susceptibility is now essentially doing what the asylum destro does after spending 5k magicka, for free on cast and five more times over the course of 30s.

This totally devalues the asylum destro on pretty much any spec that doesn't have in-toolkit access to breach.

I think they should probably just walk back the change, and keep the duration at 30s. I'm okay with both morphs remaining free, but they shouldn't receive any further buffs and the live 60s version of susceptibility is far too long in duration.

Dr_Con

Can we just uncouple this with causing in-combat for both the caster and the affected, especially after we die? It sucks when you use this ability and die some seconds after and can't buy seige because the other person still has the debuff on them.

AinSoph

Ah yes, ~10 people applying burning wasnt enough, now just have the entire raid team do it.

JerBearESO

it's a bit overloaded, but really only from its duration and maybe lack of cost. the new effect is actually pretty ok, since you can already get all three status effects relatively easily anyway.

i think it needs a duration of like 12 seconds; effects would apply 3 times. the other morph can be for the purpose of lasting. that should semi solve the in combat forever issue as well

AndreNoir

I find it overtuned in pvp yet almost useless in pve

Lughlongarm

AndreNoir wrote: »

I find it overtuned in pvp yet almost useless in pve

Is it?
What about DK tank using ICE staff, holding block and spamming "Elemental Susceptibility". You not only giving the target all 4 debuffs with 100% uptime (including the extra 10% crit chance), you will also get 1000k magicka(for procing burning) every second, which makes your prema blocking basically free. You want more? Take the "Baron Zaudrus" monster set on top, and now you get 4 ultimate regen every second which is one of the best utilities you can give a tank and even more sustain due to the DK passive.

The more I have experimented with this passive the more I realized how broken it really is.

Lughlongarm

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

This change is a little too overloaded. I use it already on live, especially for PVP. Even though it applies 1 status effect on live, you can spam the ability to re-roll for a new status effect. I've tested it before, if you want to stack status effects, you can re-apply the effect and it instantly re-rolls for a new elemental effect.

So on live it's possible to get multiple effects up at once because it applies an effect on cast.
This change just makes it so you no longer need to do this, but that same process can apply, just keep spamming it and now you have all effects up at all time because the effects apply on cast.

Long range major breach, 5% damage taken, a free burning dot, and 10% crit damage done all instantly on cast.
It's definitely an overloaded buff, despite the decrease in timer. That is irrelevant if you can just re-cast it to get every buff back

Yep, you are 100% right. If they want to buff this skill without making it broken, it should be : 1 random status effect when you apply this skill, 2 random status effects at 6 sec, 3 status effects at 12 sec and repeat this process for the 30 sec duration.

JerBearESO

Lughlongarm wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I find it overtuned in pvp yet almost useless in pve

Is it?
What about DK tank using ICE staff, holding block and spamming "Elemental Susceptibility". You not only giving the target all 4 debuffs with 100% uptime (including the extra 10% crit chance), you will also get 1000k magicka(for procing burning) every second, which makes your prema blocking basically free. You want more? Take the "Baron Zaudrus" monster set on top, and now you get 4 ultimate regen every second which is one of the best utilities you can give a tank and even more sustain due to the DK passive.

The more I have experimented with this passive the more I realized how broken it really is.

it would pair well with baron, but i believe DK has a 3s cooldown on the resource restore from applying burning

mmtaniac

This spell + status duration set?

Lughlongarm

JerBearESO wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

AndreNoir wrote: »

I find it overtuned in pvp yet almost useless in pve

Is it?
What about DK tank using ICE staff, holding block and spamming "Elemental Susceptibility". You not only giving the target all 4 debuffs with 100% uptime (including the extra 10% crit chance), you will also get 1000k magicka(for procing burning) every second, which makes your prema blocking basically free. You want more? Take the "Baron Zaudrus" monster set on top, and now you get 4 ultimate regen every second which is one of the best utilities you can give a tank and even more sustain due to the DK passive.

The more I have experimented with this passive the more I realized how broken it really is.

it would pair well with baron, but i believe DK has a 3s cooldown on the resource restore from applying burning

Ya, you are right. My bad. 1000k magicka every 3 sec is also quite solid.

Mayrael

Mhm... Soooo OP... Not. Most classes have major breach already built in their toolkit, while also doing some extra stuff. This skill is finally worth of its place on skill bar.

DrSlaughtr

Mayrael wrote: »

Mhm... Soooo OP... Not. Most classes have major breach already built in their toolkit, while also doing some extra stuff. This skill is finally worth of its place on skill bar.

I would have no issue if, being now an offensive skill that causes a burning dot, minor vulnerability, minor maim AND minor brittle, all guaranteed, that it should cost something in the neighborhood of 3.5k to 3k. This is basically is now a free tool for DKs and wardens to use against everyone else.

Remember that these are refreshing every 6 seconds, which is nearly 100% uptime on all of these advantages. It's a silly amount of free damage and MOST classes/builds cannot fit purge in, either on a bar or resource cost wise.

gariondavey

Mayrael wrote: »

Mhm... Soooo OP... Not. Most classes have major breach already built in their toolkit, while also doing some extra stuff. This skill is finally worth of its place on skill bar.

Sorc and templar don't have major breach from class skills
Nightblade, necromancer, dragonknight and warden do have major breach from class skills
I guess 4/6 is technically most, but this argument would hold more weight if all classes did have access to major breach

xDeusEJRx

Mayrael wrote: »

Mhm... Soooo OP... Not. Most classes have major breach already built in their toolkit, while also doing some extra stuff. This skill is finally worth of its place on skill bar.

This skill costs nothing and it's ranged. It far outclasses a lot of the class sources of breach, except for NB's reapers mark. Reaper's mark is just busted because it can go up to 61,000 healing due to full HP heal. But reaper's mark still has a cost attached to it.

Noxious breath is not even equivalent to this because 5,000 pen at range 5% damage taken, 10% crit damage taken all for free is better than Noxious, especially after DOT nerf and the fact it requires stamina. Plus noxious being a conal AoE it doesn't always apply when it should. Meanwhile this can be safely applied at range, I can be passive in a fight and keep my distance while still getting deeps and debuffing you at the same time. Not to mention if you get stam checked, you can't use this ability at all or if you have bad stam sustain.

Unneverying boneyard isn't even much of an argument as no one uses it in PVP. Self synergy is way better because allies never activate synergies in PVP anyway. Everyone uses Avid boneyard which has no major breach

Warden's deep fissure in it's current form does outclass this, but it still requires magic(unlike this skill) and it's a short range skill.
Even if you look at Snipe or caltrops, both have a cost attached to it and require positioning in order to apply breach. Which this skill completely cuts out the necessity of.

A group could just have a debuff player running this skill constantly free casting it to give everyone nice damage buffs. You CANNOT free cast skills with a cost attached to it(because you will get stam or mag checked eventually)

There's no way you think this skill isn't already OP. This skill does more work than a lot of skill do for no cost and for easy application. Most class skills require the right positioning/range and resources to apply breach.

This does it easily plus more while also costing nothing. It's egregiously OP for a 0 cost skill. Especially since you could back bar an ice staff and use it.

Sergykid

it costs a bar slot. And most capable will prefer something stronger in that slot. Yes it's strong(er) spell now, but there's still better options to slot instead

React

Sergykid wrote: »

it costs a bar slot. And most capable will prefer something stronger in that slot. Yes it's strong(er) spell now, but there's still better options to slot instead

No. Major breach is the strongest damage modifier in the game in terms of PVP, assuming you aren't going to overpen. Any competent solo or damage dealing PVP setup will have a source of major breach, or it will be sacrificing a huge amount of damage potential. As someone else mentioned, this free to cast skill vastly outclasses most sources of class based breach, and it will become meta for that reason on most specs.

It's not even just major breach. Ele drain and ele susceptibility have been in the game for years. This new version is giving 6k pen, 5% damage taken, 10% crit damage taken, 5% reduced damage done, a dot, and two instances of direct damage on cast and every 6 seconds after for 30 seconds. For free. I don't know how you could suggest that "there's better sources or abilities", when in probably 8/10 cases this ability will be the clear winner.

DrSlaughtr

React wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

it costs a bar slot. And most capable will prefer something stronger in that slot. Yes it's strong(er) spell now, but there's still better options to slot instead

No. Major breach is the strongest damage modifier in the game in terms of PVP, assuming you aren't going to overpen. Any competent solo or damage dealing PVP setup will have a source of major breach, or it will be sacrificing a huge amount of damage potential. As someone else mentioned, this free to cast skill vastly outclasses most sources of class based breach, and it will become meta for that reason on most specs.

It's not even just major breach. Ele drain and ele susceptibility have been in the game for years. This new version is giving 6k pen, 5% damage taken, 10% crit damage taken, 5% reduced damage done, a dot, and two instances of direct damage on cast and every 6 seconds after for 30 seconds. For free. I don't know how you could suggest that "there's better sources or abilities", when in probably 8/10 cases this ability will be the clear winner.

Yeah I have a hard time believing that this will not be overly adopted by most brawler builds. The free DPS increases are going to run rampant and punish anyone without a templar or someone running purge in the group. I'm already thinking about how I can fit it into my NB build simply out of necessity. This is going to be yet again another situation where devs completely underestimate the ends players will go to take advantage of their drastic miscalculation of a skill or set power level.

the1andonlyskwex

ninjagank wrote: »

React wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

it costs a bar slot. And most capable will prefer something stronger in that slot. Yes it's strong(er) spell now, but there's still better options to slot instead

No. Major breach is the strongest damage modifier in the game in terms of PVP, assuming you aren't going to overpen. Any competent solo or damage dealing PVP setup will have a source of major breach, or it will be sacrificing a huge amount of damage potential. As someone else mentioned, this free to cast skill vastly outclasses most sources of class based breach, and it will become meta for that reason on most specs.

It's not even just major breach. Ele drain and ele susceptibility have been in the game for years. This new version is giving 6k pen, 5% damage taken, 10% crit damage taken, 5% reduced damage done, a dot, and two instances of direct damage on cast and every 6 seconds after for 30 seconds. For free. I don't know how you could suggest that "there's better sources or abilities", when in probably 8/10 cases this ability will be the clear winner.

Yeah I have a hard time believing that this will not be overly adopted by most brawler builds. The free DPS increases are going to run rampant and punish anyone without a templar or someone running purge in the group. I'm already thinking about how I can fit it into my NB build simply out of necessity. This is going to be yet again another situation where devs completely underestimate the ends players will go to take advantage of their drastic miscalculation of a skill or set power level.

I think the fact that you have to equip a destruction staff instead of something else is going to dissuade a lot of people.

Didgerion

Lughlongarm wrote: »

In a vacuum this skill indeed appear to be very strong but From a PvP perspective, I'm not too nervous about buffs related to destro staves ATM. Since Zos started to fuse Magicka and Stamina together, bar space is extremely tight and destro staves are not very popular. If you used this skill before or the other morph(probably with Wrath of Elements staff), your build got better , if you weren't, not sure the swap will make your build better, the alternative cost is very high.

It is a very strong skill. The best of NBs and DKs already run it on the back bar. It does not compromise the damage of their 2H or dual wield front bar.