Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
I think its funny that the tank gets called fake and is hated-- imagined to have ill intent-- while the DPS is given the excuse of being new or just bad.
Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
Of course there's bad DPS. There's consequences to allowing people to blur support roles or ignore them altogether. People are too worried about covering every possible scenario, that they become mediocre at everything. You can't ask players for top tier DPS when they're trying to cover their bases for survival, because support is not guaranteed.
ForzaRammer wrote: »Just get rid of group finder all together
I think its funny that the tank gets called fake and is hated-- imagined to have ill intent-- while the DPS is given the excuse of being new or just bad.
The issue is intent, not how good or bad someone is at their role.
1. Did you queue as a tank, with taunts, hoping to fill your role in the party but you're not very good at it? Sure, free pass. Everyone starts somewhere. No problem bruv.
2. Did you queue as a DPS, but you're not very good at dealing damage? That's OK fam, we got you. You'll figure it out.
3. Did you queue as a tank, with no taunts, with the express intent of skipping the queue with high DPS, carrying the party? Well, that makes you a bit obnoxious. That's gonna annoy all the other DPS players who queued as a DPS and waited in line.
4. Did you queue as a tank, with no taunts, with the express intent of skipping the queue, while thinking your DPS is godly, when in-fact, I, the damned healer is out DPS'ing you? Get in the god damn bin.
See the difference between 1, 2 then 3, 4?
This is also where my bugbear comes in to this. Regardless of what the keyboard warriors on the forums say, 4 has become the norm. Everyone that fake tanks seems to think their DPS is awesome, so fake tanking and queue jumping is their right. But I'm out DPS'ing them on my basic one-bar, no light attack weaving, healer. Screw this noise.
My tipping point was three RNDs on the trot with someone who was so bad fake tanking as a DPS, with no taunts, they ran in circles with bosses in Wayrest 1scared to take damage. The circles were so bad, everyone's AoE's became useless. He just kept dragging everything out of the damage areas. How can you be so spectacularly bad at the game you drag out Wayrest 1, while faking a role? Holy hell.
AcadianPaladin wrote: »Or add an option to the group finder to queue as any/no role instead of trying to force the trinity upon players.
Solo players need to be able to handle a boss in their face while staying alive and doing reasonable damage. Those kinds of players (like me) do fine in group content as well. If you make me chose between a group build or a solo build, I'll stay with my solo build and group even less than I do now.
the trinity you so call "forced" is already forced in trials
It is not forced. I have seen a video where a DPS helped with healing in a trial. I believe it was progression where they needed some extra healing to help them get through the trial, where two alternate bosses drop into the fight. vAS. I have also seen trials where the OT was a DPS tank in some fights.
It is just that with more challenging content, many groups find that defining roles for each player is the most efficient. That is not forced but a choice.
It is no different from our choices when forming a dungeon group. The only difference is when asking the GF to find a random group, the player is giving up the choice of deciding what each player will do as well as how good their build is and how well they will play.
When asking for a random group, one is asking for potluck. The real fix to the fake tank problem is fixing the reason real tanks such as myself, refuse to go for the random group thing.
It's important to understand that it can be forced and still allow for transition.
A good example would be in another game, when I was tanking on the back of a dragon as a bear, but had to reforge all of my gear into dps to help meet a really strict burst timer it had. So I was extra super mega squishy (and reliant on cooldowns a lot more than usual) but destroyed the tendrils.
ESO is very special in that it has tanks working as buff bots to a degree way in excess of any other MMO I have played (if one exists let me know, it definitely is possible), which reinforces the notion that the holy trinity is still in full effect. Removing healers was seen in Guild Wars 2 initially (as a Guild Wars 1 monk, I wasn't exactly pleased at the time) and I think that feeling has stretched into ESO very heavily - self survival based on personal healing as opposed to mechanic avoidance.
As a real tank player (4 of my 8 chars have tank sets, 2 have healer sets, all 8 have dps sets saved in armory) I run hybrid tank setups on each of them to provide around 20-30k dps single target on bosses to allow them to run normal dungeons and not be beholden to the RNG of whether the dps will bring 5k each or 50k.
I think a lot of the issues are generated by the lack of structure in classes - each player can be a tank, healer and dd in the same build so creating a scenario where only healers can heal to full strength, tanks have 30-60% dps of a DD (that is from my experience of MMOs over the last 20-25 years) and DD/tanks can chip into other roles where necessary for short periods. But it has benefits too, so I don't think ESO will ever find a way to fix the situation.
Maybe they disable self healing in Dungeons only. It can be done.
rootkitronin wrote: »Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
Fake DPS? How does that even work? An what kind of content are you talking about?
I can understand poor or bad DPS, but fake?
I thought for healer and tank roles you generally have to spec into specific skills and functions - that leaves DPS as just the default. So is it more just very poorly optimized/performing DPS, or am I missing some way people are "faking" the role?
Its kind of an joke, but I say but if you do less dps than an companion you are kind of pointless, my Ember does 2.5 k dps and she has a heal to.rootkitronin wrote: »Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
Fake DPS? How does that even work? An what kind of content are you talking about?
I can understand poor or bad DPS, but fake?
I thought for healer and tank roles you generally have to spec into specific skills and functions - that leaves DPS as just the default. So is it more just very poorly optimized/performing DPS, or am I missing some way people are "faking" the role?
rootkitronin wrote: »Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
Fake DPS? How does that even work? An what kind of content are you talking about?
I can understand poor or bad DPS, but fake?
I thought for healer and tank roles you generally have to spec into specific skills and functions - that leaves DPS as just the default. So is it more just very poorly optimized/performing DPS, or am I missing some way people are "faking" the role?
I think its funny that the tank gets called fake and is hated-- imagined to have ill intent-- while the DPS is given the excuse of being new or just bad.
3. Did you queue as a tank, with no taunts, with the express intent of skipping the queue with high DPS, carrying the party? Well, that makes you a bit obnoxious. That's gonna annoy all the other DPS players who queued as a DPS and waited in line.
See the difference between 1, 2 then 3, 4?
boi_anachronism_ wrote: »DMuehlhausen wrote: »They could always do what another mmorpg did a few years ago, and that's to nerf self heals. It was an unpopular decision at the time, but then people adjusted, everyone started to appreciate healers and tanks more, and there was better overall role standards in group content.
That would break the solo arenas though.
You would adjust the solo arenas to match. Give them ways to heal, have items they can interact with during encounters to heal, have to use potions to heal. It wouldn't break the solo content.
No. Show me a pov of you doing VVH with no self heals at all. Forget about trifectas. How about vet cloudrest? Gonna portal with no self heals? On a time limit? Potions will never keep up with that damage, the cool down is way too long. You would have to take 4 healers into that trial. 2- to run around downstairs with the DPS, one to kite upstairs and one to heal group. Your min dps would have to be through the roof to clear because now you gotta sacrifice 2 additional dd spots. People going into maelstrom for the first time would just give up. Self heals are integral to many parts of the game. What about pvp? Whatcha gonna do? Have 25 sigils outside each keep?
Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
Of course there's bad DPS. There's consequences to allowing people to blur support roles or ignore them altogether. People are too worried about covering every possible scenario, that they become mediocre at everything. You can't ask players for top tier DPS when they're trying to cover their bases for survival, because support is not guaranteed.
kringled_1 wrote: »
With all due respect, I can bring a vVH/vMA build into most vDLC dungeons and noone will complain about the level of damage, yet those builds are very survival built. This is much more a problem of people getting into content they are not prepared for.
This, and note all expect HM in the baseline vet dungeons.I think its funny that the tank gets called fake and is hated-- imagined to have ill intent-- while the DPS is given the excuse of being new or just bad.
The issue is intent, not how good or bad someone is at their role.
1. Did you queue as a tank, with taunts, hoping to fill your role in the party but you're not very good at it? Sure, free pass. Everyone starts somewhere. No problem bruv.
2. Did you queue as a DPS, but you're not very good at dealing damage? That's OK fam, we got you. You'll figure it out.
3. Did you queue as a tank, with no taunts, with the express intent of skipping the queue with high DPS, carrying the party? Well, that makes you a bit obnoxious. That's gonna annoy all the other DPS players who queued as a DPS and waited in line.
4. Did you queue as a tank, with no taunts, with the express intent of skipping the queue, while thinking your DPS is godly, when in-fact, I, the damned healer is out DPS'ing you? Get in the god damn bin.
See the difference between 1, 2 then 3, 4?
This is also where my bugbear comes in to this. Regardless of what the keyboard warriors on the forums say, 4 has become the norm. Everyone that fake tanks seems to think their DPS is awesome, so fake tanking and queue jumping is their right. But I'm out DPS'ing them on my basic one-bar, no light attack weaving, healer. Screw this noise.
My tipping point was three RNDs on the trot with someone who was so bad fake tanking as a DPS, with no taunts, they ran in circles with bosses in Wayrest 1scared to take damage. The circles were so bad, everyone's AoE's became useless. He just kept dragging everything out of the damage areas. How can you be so spectacularly bad at the game you drag out Wayrest 1, while faking a role? Holy hell.
i will always ask "why fake tank you make some dungeons undoable" or "if your going to fake tank at least wait for the healer"
and the responce i get almost every time is "why have a tank/healer when i can self heal just as good"
and it made some sense, WHY tank or heal if you can deal high damage AND healing? self healing is so good that theres no reason to not have one, why have 2 damage, 1 tank and 1 healer when you can faceroll even the harder VET dungeons as 4 damage with strong self heals?
the easy cure would be to just force assigned roles a roll based buff, tank deals 10% less damage but recieves 5% less damage and 10% magicka/stam cost reduction, healers deal 10% less damage but have 10% increased magicka+stam regen (i would say healing increase but healing on a healer is already pretty high) and damage would get 10% damage increase and 5% stam/magicka regen but 15% less self healing.
but you can bet people will get salty over losing their "play anyway you want" being nerfed (more like cheese any way) but unless a better solution comes up this would honestly be the better option because right now bad habbits are reinforced due to how easy it is to be "hybrid" since self healing scales with your aggressive stats
Veinblood1965 wrote: »Simple really. Once you play let's say three dungeons total or something like that as a tank or a healer you are LOCKED into that role permanently until you but a Role Respec Token or go to a Role Respec Shrine and pay 40,000 gold.
Veinblood1965 wrote: »Simple really. Once you play let's say three dungeons total or something like that as a tank or a healer you are LOCKED into that role permanently until you but a Role Respec Token or go to a Role Respec Shrine and pay 40,000 gold.
rootkitronin wrote: »Einar_Hrafnarsson wrote: »I, as a healer/Tank main, find fake DPS to be much worse. Not even a joke. And there is SO MUCH of them recently.
Fake DPS? How does that even work? An what kind of content are you talking about?
I can understand poor or bad DPS, but fake?
I thought for healer and tank roles you generally have to spec into specific skills and functions - that leaves DPS as just the default. So is it more just very poorly optimized/performing DPS, or am I missing some way people are "faking" the role?