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Reduce battlespirit mitigation by 2.5-5% 🙏

  • edward_frigidhands
    edward_frigidhands
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    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I disagree with the resource scaling for healing. To me that's just an adjustment for adjustment's sake that you'd have to spend patches balancing around when you can already balance it the way it is now.

    There are definitely some sources of healing that are overtuned, but identifying it, pointing them out and having facts to get them adjusted will go a further distance than just saying change how they scale which on its own doesn't do much imo.

    As far as undeath goes it's pretty clearly the best form of mitigation in the game since almost everyone runs vampire in pvp despite the cost increase. There's not really any cons to it, you're tankier vs flame dmg with it than without, which is the one "downside" that's supposed to happen with vamp.

    30% mitigation is a lot and as was said before, there are a lot of different forms of "when at low health survive" modifiers that help create stalemate situations. This one is probably the most egregious though.

    It really isn't that much given the amount of damage possible in PvP right now. You have to remember 30% is reached when the player is near death and exposed to execute abilities.

    A lot of stalemates are the result of players not having a decent knowledge base and understanding why executes must be slotted and when they should be used.

    Have a look at this thread:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614771/unacceptable-damage/p1

    They are able to convert the increased flame damage received to flame resistance reduction and Undeath to a resistance buff in order to even things out though and ensure that the implementation of Vampiric buffs/debuffs makes more sense however.
    Edited by edward_frigidhands on September 19, 2022 1:34PM
  • React
    React
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    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

    I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

    Honestly, I don't think they should adjust the battle spirit mitigation. What I think would be a much better choice, and something that is LONG overdue, is a nerf to vampire undeath.

    Every single person in PVP is a vampire, and for 90% of those players they are a vampire purely for the undeath passive. It is by far the most broken passive in the game. It's very clear the passive overperforms and has for a while. I think if they nerfed undeath down to like 15% it would still be very strong, but there would be a realistic choice between being a vamp/not being a vamp. The current penalty of 8% ability cost or whatever is just a non factor compared to the potential 30% mitigation you get.
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  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I disagree with the resource scaling for healing. To me that's just an adjustment for adjustment's sake that you'd have to spend patches balancing around when you can already balance it the way it is now.

    There are definitely some sources of healing that are overtuned, but identifying it, pointing them out and having facts to get them adjusted will go a further distance than just saying change how they scale which on its own doesn't do much imo.

    As far as undeath goes it's pretty clearly the best form of mitigation in the game since almost everyone runs vampire in pvp despite the cost increase. There's not really any cons to it, you're tankier vs flame dmg with it than without, which is the one "downside" that's supposed to happen with vamp.

    30% mitigation is a lot and as was said before, there are a lot of different forms of "when at low health survive" modifiers that help create stalemate situations. This one is probably the most egregious though.

    It really isn't that much given the amount of damage possible in PvP right now. You have to remember 30% is reached when the player is near death and exposed to execute abilities.

    A lot of stalemates are the result of players not having a decent knowledge base and understanding why executes must be slotted and when they should be used.

    Have a look at this thread:

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614771/unacceptable-damage/p1

    They are able to convert the increased flame damage received to flame resistance reduction and Undeath to a resistance buff in order to even things out though and ensure that the implementation of Vampiric buffs/debuffs makes more sense however.

    That thread is from the oakensoul times and frankly 33k resistances vs a nb doesn't mean much with the amount of pen they can stack
  • FrankonPC
    FrankonPC
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    React wrote: »
    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

    I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

    Honestly, I don't think they should adjust the battle spirit mitigation. What I think would be a much better choice, and something that is LONG overdue, is a nerf to vampire undeath.

    Every single person in PVP is a vampire, and for 90% of those players they are a vampire purely for the undeath passive. It is by far the most broken passive in the game. It's very clear the passive overperforms and has for a while. I think if they nerfed undeath down to like 15% it would still be very strong, but there would be a realistic choice between being a vamp/not being a vamp. The current penalty of 8% ability cost or whatever is just a non factor compared to the potential 30% mitigation you get.

    Oh I don't disagree. Vamp adjustments are better. I just brought it up since they're already making changes in the incremental they could adjust mitigation really quick. Nothing more than a bandaid for a tankier patch.

    Long term completely agree vamp should be adjusted as well as low health saving cp, passives and sets.
  • Urzigurumash
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    Yes, volumes have been written on this forum about Undeath, which often invoked the ire of those who want to play a dedicated Vampire build in PvE.

    Does anybody have any specific reason why they don't want a reduction to BS Mitigation?

    Seems ideal to me. Most certainly, I would hope we can all agree this should be tried before nerfs to Warden or DK. Although these 2 classes are extremely strong right now, both have suffered long spells of irrelevance, and I think we can see a general trend that tanky patches favor tanky classes, bursty patches favor bursty classes. It's obviously true Sorc has their own concerns about being antiquated after 2021's buffs to Templar and DK, but lessening BS Mitigation should push things a bit towards their favor.

    This patch is a bit too tanky, prior patches in the last couple years were a bit too bursty (that one Crystal Weapon meta patch for instance), so an adjustment to BS seems like a prudent way to strike better balance.

    Tangentially allow me to reiterate here the Flame Damage Taken Penalty on Vampirism almost necessarily makes it difficult to balance DK in PvP so long as Undeath is so strong: point for point, nothing does more damage to a Vampire than Flame - but it does even more damage to a Mortal.

    Anyhow, why contemplate and ruminate about new programmatic features as to how armor and healing work, when a solution might be had by simply adjusting one existent variable?

    Edited by Urzigurumash on September 28, 2022 7:05PM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • Lughlongarm
    Lughlongarm
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    Just remove the armor buff from vigor and reduce the healing by additional 20%.
    Vigor was never designed to be the top healing in the game for every build, it was designed to be a filler healing skill for builds with limited access to healing.
  • Sergykid
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    how was there a tank meta before mara? or before rally? or since forever really.
    many players fail to understand the tankiness is not about sets, at least not primarily about sets. Some players along with sets blame Undeath passive, that is overrated, some decent players are not even vampires because they use Gaze or have enough mobility that they don't even need to tank damage to use the passive.

    people don't die because of how line of sight works. Pillar hugging is dominating, surviving is about positioning and speed. Fast and temporary solution would be adjusting hitboxes.

    For just the healing problem a solution could be changing or adding a debuff like Defile to work like the Relic debuff.
    inside spoiler is copied a detailed reply i gave in this thread, comment # 6, https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/618515/the-pvp-plight
    "tank" meta is not what it's commonly thought it is. You can wear hist sap, mara balm, any combination of tank sets. A character can normally heal 1.5x of damage (with occasional bursts but then it's sustain race), so nobody dies 1v1 just by default if one of those opponents wants to. When you hear complains "u can't kill me 1v1" or "yeah only 2v1 u can" yeah by game's default, that's the actual point.
    If a good player stands still like a target dummy he can outheal the damage of another good player (if he wants to and builds in such way). But he can not outheal, just by simple numbers war, the damage of another two good players. It will take a lot for full tanks build but it's a sustain race that nobody wants to bother with.

    so out of the way with sets that people think they bring the tank meta, the real problem with "tanks" is line of sight. This game has a global ~1 sec delay of your position (and any action in general). You will often cast your animation and then it cancels because target is out of sight. It shouldn't have casted in the first place if target was out of sight, right? This makes running around a pillar impossible to get hit because the game desyncs your position against your enemy's attacks. Good players do this by anticipating enemy's movement on the pillar and going there ahead of enemy, to keep the "real" time in same place while in game the desync is tricked.

    So just properly using the broken targeting with line of sight you can become "unkillable" even against 2-3 targets even in full damage build, hence the "he can't die but he one shots me", because u r not even taking the damage in the first place, but u r dealing it because your enemy is not behind a line of sight blocker. It's not about sets, these just set the time required for kill and not the possibility of it.

    as of what could change, fixing the proper targeting and line of sighting would be hard work and maybe past the engine's capabilities, definitely not worth for a corporation that solves problems as it does now. So for now, band-aid fixes like it's commonly done.
    Maybe narrow the corners of target sight blocking terrain and enlarge the players hitboxes, if spell is launched with enemy in sight then fire that spell even if meanwhile target had its position updated to be out of sight.

    Just for the healing and survivability itself issue, Defile could be reworked to be like the Relic debuff, some more details about this theory here:
    instead of having 8/16 % healing reduced, dealing direct damage with disease damage , applies to the target the Diseased and hence the Defiled debuffs.
    These are not cleansable, Diseased lasts for 8 seconds, and while active it applies Defiled effect that grows every second by 1% to reduce target's healing received (capped 99%, to keep "healing received" effects).
    So if you don't take direct disease damage for 8 seconds, you lose the Diseased debuff, and Defiled debuff is removed any time Diseased expires or is removed in any way. Getting hit by direct disease damage refreshes the duration of Diseased, so this makes Defiled not lose the growing stacks.
    Let's say: i am getting hit, debuff starts, during 8 seconds of Diseased i reach 8% Defiled. I get hit again after 6 seconds instead, so for the next 8 seconds of Diseased i reach 14% Defiled. Now again i get hit after 6 seconds instead going towards 12%, so for the next 8 seconds i will reach a total of 20% Defiled. And so on if i fight constantly for 50 seconds eventually i reach 50% Defiled, and can go on.
    I know what this looks like, defile sources op now and necros become meta. Well necros in pvp do need something right now but in this case Blastbones should become dodgeable because it would be full uptime dooming someone to death without choice, and Defile could be reworked to be accessible better than some niche debuff. Also sets that apply the Defile debuff would need rework to not grant full uptime without player direct implication, at least for pvp.
    Applied by direct damage means no dots or procs, but enchants should work here, also work effects that specifically apply Defile should work to apply Diseased as if being applied as direct damage. This makes absorb shield more valuable, hence magsorcs gain some needed defensive advantage (offensively they are at max limit of power, shouldn't get any more).
    Edited by Sergykid on September 29, 2022 5:04PM
    -PC EU- / battlegrounds on my youtube
  • keto3000
    keto3000
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    React wrote: »
    FrankonPC wrote: »
    I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

    I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

    Honestly, I don't think they should adjust the battle spirit mitigation. What I think would be a much better choice, and something that is LONG overdue, is a nerf to vampire undeath.

    Every single person in PVP is a vampire, and for 90% of those players they are a vampire purely for the undeath passive. It is by far the most broken passive in the game. It's very clear the passive overperforms and has for a while. I think if they nerfed undeath down to like 15% it would still be very strong, but there would be a realistic choice between being a vamp/not being a vamp. The current penalty of 8% ability cost or whatever is just a non factor compared to the potential 30% mitigation you get.

    Agree with this! The whole concept of Werewolf and Vampire skill lines were originally 'immersive playstyles' while in those forms but since Undeath passive works the way it does, it's become a 'generic passive' for overwhleming number of players who don't care where its coming from-- just that it gives that huge bonus.
    “The point of power is always in the present moment.”

    ― Louise L. Hay
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