Reduce battlespirit mitigation by 2.5-5% 🙏

FrankonPC

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

Bergzorn

At least in Ravenwatch PC EU, a lot of the more tanky players are overhealing enough that 5-10% more damage taken won't be a problem for them and they would happily take the incresed damage done to blow up inexperienced players even faster.

keto3000

Gina Bruno says here that a fix to reduce the healing on Maras Balm is coming this week so that should help with unkillable tanks:

https://clips.twitch.tv/WittyUninterestedDragonfruitCharlietheUnicorn-Pc87Nr7R7mk0Whx3

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

DrSlaughtr

Changing mitigation or healing or damage will have very little effect.

Healing needs to no longer scale with damage. It should scale with max resource.

The more armor you're wearing should have an adverse effect on your w/s damage. If you're 33k+ resistance in pvp you shouldn't sit at 7k damage and have 15k tooltips.

Make players choose their path. This master of all build style leads to absurdity.

Beffagorn

Reducing the damage mitigation will only benefit oneshot and gank focused builds and do nothing to actually combat the issue.

The problem with survivability in this patch comes from sets like Mara's that are incredibly overtuned and other proc sets that either apply far too much pressure or simply deal too much damage, enabling players to rely on those sets and to invest more into survivability and recovery which they wouldn't otherwise have access to without sacrifices.

The ease of how you certain classes can kite almost endlessly or simply recover 80% of their HP with the press of a button (Streak and Coagulating Blood being the biggest offenders here, aswell as cloak to a lesser extent and other less so but still impactful abilities) does nothing other than further excacerbate the issue.

Lastly, the Dot nerfs pretty much left them gutted, which removed a lot of pressure from the board aswell as basically forcing DKs to use Corrosive Armor if they wish to remain actually competitive, creating even more nearly immortal builds.

These are the diseases that need treatment. It's not heavy armor, it's not resistances and it's not blocking.

FrankonPC

Beffagorn wrote: »

Reducing the damage mitigation will only benefit oneshot and gank focused builds and do nothing to actually combat the issue.

The problem with survivability in this patch comes from sets like Mara's that are incredibly overtuned and other proc sets that either apply far too much pressure or simply deal too much damage, enabling players to rely on those sets and to invest more into survivability and recovery which they wouldn't otherwise have access to without sacrifices.

The ease of how you certain classes can kite almost endlessly or simply recover 80% of their HP with the press of a button (Streak and Coagulating Blood being the biggest offenders here, aswell as cloak to a lesser extent and other less so but still impactful abilities) does nothing other than further excacerbate the issue.

Lastly, the Dot nerfs pretty much left them gutted, which removed a lot of pressure from the board aswell as basically forcing DKs to use Corrosive Armor if they wish to remain actually competitive, creating even more nearly immortal builds.

These are the diseases that need treatment. It's not heavy armor, it's not resistances and it's not blocking.

This patch was tanky even before maras was popularized. I don't disagree with other, larger combat adjustments. What I'm proposing is more of a bandaid adjustment that makes what we have better for the short term.

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

Changing mitigation or healing or damage will have very little effect.

Healing needs to no longer scale with damage. It should scale with max resource.

The more armor you're wearing should have an adverse effect on your w/s damage. If you're 33k+ resistance in pvp you shouldn't sit at 7k damage and have 15k tooltips.

Make players choose their path. This master of all build style leads to absurdity.

Changing how much more dmg we can do in pvp will have an effect in the short term.

What you're proposing is a much larger change that i don't necessarily disagree with. The incremental patch is this week and this small change would make a very tanky patch to a solid one imo. There still will be imbalance of course but this will help, and it will end fights a bit faster which is more enjoyable and seemingly better for server performance.

Firstmep

In no cp bgs it's really only bad if theres a lot of crosshealing or dedicated healers.
People are still dying, although 1 shots are defo not there.
I'd rather see healing reduced than dmg increased to be honest.

Szende

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

I wouldn't say "little". It's so tanky, whenever i lauch the game, youtube automatically starts playing "Sabaton - Steel Commanders" or "Ghost Division". Built for damage purely and i'm laughably survivable while being easily tanked.

Firstmep

Szende wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

I wouldn't say "little". It's so tanky, whenever i lauch the game, youtube automatically starts playing "Sabaton - Steel Commanders" or "Ghost Division". Built for damage purely and i'm laughably survivable while being easily tanked.

Same here, I build for full damage and can still face tank multiple people.
It's just silly.
I made a squishy rollerblade build as well with 0 impen and I have to mess up really hard to die on it.

edward_frigidhands

Most of the issue is Mara's solely.

deleted221205-002626

ninjagank wrote: »

Changing mitigation or healing or damage will have very little effect.

Healing needs to no longer scale with damage. It should scale with max resource.

The more armor you're wearing should have an adverse effect on your w/s damage. If you're 33k+ resistance in pvp you shouldn't sit at 7k damage and have 15k tooltips.

Make players choose their path. This master of all build style leads to absurdity.

Thats why in another thread I was saying they need to drop base ability effects much more and then raise CP effectiveness much more so you have to choose role not be them all at the same time.. they did the reverse with CP so it matters little what you pick.

TechMaybeHic

Might work but I feel they need to make more benefit for going offensive in general.

StarOfElyon

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

Oakenaxe

StarOfElyon wrote: »

How about we just nerf undeath?

- I would welcome this, and vampirism should have more downsides as well imo. At the current state it is not a curse at all, it is a blessing lol

FrankonPC

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

sure! i just assumed they wouldn't make changes like that mid chapter, but a slider bar on battle spirit could be done

StarOfElyon

FrankonPC wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

sure! i just assumed they wouldn't make changes like that mid chapter, but a slider bar on battle spirit could be done

One of the reasons I suggested this is because I have a few characters who aren't vampire's and there's a huge difference at low health. Yes, I play non-vampire characters in PVP (role play is the true endgame). A mitigation nerf across the board would only hit my mortal characters harder.

I'd rather see vampirism reworked (and made good this time). Currently it's just chosen for the undeath passive or to serve as a buff for the cloak-blades's damage out of stealth. There's no other reason to play a vampire outside of role play.

DrSlaughtr

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

The only people you would punish with this are those who sit under 20k armor. aka the people who are not the problem. Undeath is a nice little bump for a 33k DK but it is not what keeps them alive when they perpetually sit at 75%+ health. Then, even when you do get them down to where Undeath would kick in, diminishing returns drastically decreases what you get from the undeath passive.

Point being, you aren't solving the tank meta even by deleting undeath because we will still be in a tank meta, but everyone trying to kill those tanks on full DPS builds will die to them easier.

WrathOfInnos

ninjagank wrote: »

Changing mitigation or healing or damage will have very little effect.

Healing needs to no longer scale with damage. It should scale with max resource.

The more armor you're wearing should have an adverse effect on your w/s damage. If you're 33k+ resistance in pvp you shouldn't sit at 7k damage and have 15k tooltips.

Make players choose their path. This master of all build style leads to absurdity.

How would this work exactly? Would a Templar cast Channeled Focus and watch their damage tooltips drop from the increased armor? Or a Sorcerer with Hurricane? Would Nightblades lose damage just by casting shadow abilities? What about various passives that give armor? I don't like the implications of one stat directly reducing the effect of another.

If you mean indirectly then this is already the case. Nobody is at 33k armor without giving up some offense. Heavy armor gives less damage than Light or Medium. We must choose between Impen and Divines, damage or health attributes, Protective and Bloodthirsty, offensive or defensive mundus stones, and slotted CP's.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Changing mitigation or healing or damage will have very little effect.

Healing needs to no longer scale with damage. It should scale with max resource.

The more armor you're wearing should have an adverse effect on your w/s damage. If you're 33k+ resistance in pvp you shouldn't sit at 7k damage and have 15k tooltips.

Make players choose their path. This master of all build style leads to absurdity.

How would this work exactly? Would a Templar cast Channeled Focus and watch their damage tooltips drop from the increased armor? Or a Sorcerer with Hurricane? Would Nightblades lose damage just by casting shadow abilities? What about various passives that give armor? I don't like the implications of one stat directly reducing the effect of another.

If you mean indirectly then this is already the case. Nobody is at 33k armor without giving up some offense. Heavy armor gives less damage than Light or Medium. We must choose between Impen and Divines, damage or health attributes, Protective and Bloodthirsty, offensive or defensive mundus stones, and slotted CP's.

We already have a system called diminishing returns in the game.

If you hit major resolve and are still sitting at around 25k armor, then you aren't the issue.

Look at it this way.

Light and medium armor do not give you a lot of mitigation. My NB, for instance, in all medium armor without resolve, sits at just under 12k armor. If I hit major resolve that bumps me up 5948, so just under 18k. Other classes have slightly different inherent armor buffs, but every class, in either all medium with no survivability sets will sit much higher than 20k. DK will be at the top of that list, I believe followed by necro, if memory serves.

Anything under 25k shouldn't have any effect on damage, and starting there a sliding scale will see an initial small dip in w/s damage, that gradually grows as you hit the soft cap, and higher.

There are only a few ways to hit soft cap in PVP. The main way is to run either heavy armor on body, or a survivability set that gives you a lot of mitigation, whether flat 100% the time or a proc conditional, like juggernaut, OR a combination of both.

So if you're a DK running bloodspawn and markyn, then you are choosing armor (with a little damage) to push your tankiness up. If you throw in a heavy piece or two, and then backbar a set like Maras that also gives you armor, then yes, that should come with a drawback, and that drawback should be damage.

This is all just spit balling. I'm not saying this would be the best thing ever BUT everyone should have to make a decision between the three roles and build around that. I'm not saying a tankier build shouldn't do damage, but it shouldn't do as much damage as a glass cannon.

StarOfElyon

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

The only people you would punish with this are those who sit under 20k armor. aka the people who are not the problem. Undeath is a nice little bump for a 33k DK but it is not what keeps them alive when they perpetually sit at 75%+ health. Then, even when you do get them down to where Undeath would kick in, diminishing returns drastically decreases what you get from the undeath passive.

Point being, you aren't solving the tank meta even by deleting undeath because we will still be in a tank meta, but everyone trying to kill those tanks on full DPS builds will die to them easier.

I didn't say it was a silver bullet. It might help though. Undeath definitely makes a character tankier at low health. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be generally viewed as a must-have for PvP.

dmnqwk

The patch buffed self healing so much it's crazy - 30k for a Vigor means the Battle Spirit isn't really effective to alleviate the issus.

I think they'd do better to reduce cc immunity in pvp when you break free to 1.5 seconds so that CC makes a bigger difference - it'd certainly help the X lock down the 1, who'd be forced to spend a lot of stamina breaking free constantly, or be in trouble.

Firstmep

dmnqwk wrote: »

The patch buffed self healing so much it's crazy - 30k for a Vigor means the Battle Spirit isn't really effective to alleviate the issus.

I think they'd do better to reduce cc immunity in pvp when you break free to 1.5 seconds so that CC makes a bigger difference - it'd certainly help the X lock down the 1, who'd be forced to spend a lot of stamina breaking free constantly, or be in trouble.

That's a terrible idea.
1.5 seconds of cc immunity would mean that noone would be able to do anything in pvp, regardless of numbers. It would make for a miserable experience for everyone.

Honestly, there are plenty of squishy players out there right now, and across the board change to mitigation would hurt them much more than experienced players.

I'd much rather have the fo thru all the overperforming stuff 1 by 1 and nerf those.
Undeath, rallying cry, mara, minor resolve on vigor, overperforming heals, etc.
At the end of the day, if people dont want to die, they will still build tanky regardless, but the opportunity cost should be higher.

I think healing in pvp in particular needs another pass, especially cross healing.

My magdk is ripping 18k coags on a build that's not even optimised for it(no major mending for example), max hp wardens are also out of control with polar winds.

Reign in the outliers first, then once we have a decent baseline for everything we can look into further adjustments if needed.

DrSlaughtr

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

The only people you would punish with this are those who sit under 20k armor. aka the people who are not the problem. Undeath is a nice little bump for a 33k DK but it is not what keeps them alive when they perpetually sit at 75%+ health. Then, even when you do get them down to where Undeath would kick in, diminishing returns drastically decreases what you get from the undeath passive.

Point being, you aren't solving the tank meta even by deleting undeath because we will still be in a tank meta, but everyone trying to kill those tanks on full DPS builds will die to them easier.

I didn't say it was a silver bullet. It might help though. Undeath definitely makes a character tankier at low health. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be generally viewed as a must-have for PvP.

But again, you would be punishing full DPS builds, not the set ups that are causing all the issues. So why would you want to make the people who are pushing the most damage in order to kill those tank DDs easier to kill by those tank DDs?

Look at it this way. Markyn ring is pretty popular, right? People love stacking that extra 200 damage. But 200 extra damage translates to very little extra damage on tooltips, and by the time that gets ran through battle spirit and the target's mitigation, it becomes only a couple hundred extra damage. Why do people run it? A couple hundred extra damage is better than none.

So if you're a 33k armor DK, undeath isn't going to give you "30% damage reduction" ever. But even if you squeak out an extra 5% near the end of your life, it's better than nothing.

Arcanasx

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

The only people you would punish with this are those who sit under 20k armor. aka the people who are not the problem. Undeath is a nice little bump for a 33k DK but it is not what keeps them alive when they perpetually sit at 75%+ health. Then, even when you do get them down to where Undeath would kick in, diminishing returns drastically decreases what you get from the undeath passive.

Point being, you aren't solving the tank meta even by deleting undeath because we will still be in a tank meta, but everyone trying to kill those tanks on full DPS builds will die to them easier.

I didn't say it was a silver bullet. It might help though. Undeath definitely makes a character tankier at low health. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be generally viewed as a must-have for PvP.

But again, you would be punishing full DPS builds, not the set ups that are causing all the issues. So why would you want to make the people who are pushing the most damage in order to kill those tank DDs easier to kill by those tank DDs?

Look at it this way. Markyn ring is pretty popular, right? People love stacking that extra 200 damage. But 200 extra damage translates to very little extra damage on tooltips, and by the time that gets ran through battle spirit and the target's mitigation, it becomes only a couple hundred extra damage. Why do people run it? A couple hundred extra damage is better than none.

So if you're a 33k armor DK, undeath isn't going to give you "30% damage reduction" ever. But even if you squeak out an extra 5% near the end of your life, it's better than nothing.

Look at it this way. Undeath is still a grossly overperforming passive regardless of whether the player has low or high resistances, as it plays a significant factor in contributing to stalemates.

Also, look at it this way; imagine if there was a passive that would increase all of one's damage by up to 30% depending on how much of your health remains. I shouldn't have to explain why something like that would obviously be highly abusable and OP.

xDeusEJRx

I would be in favor of a slight decrease to battle spirit mitigation.

Reduced healing from u35 changes and potentially reducing mitigation would make things fall in line more with the reduction to a lot of damaging abilities.

OBJnoob

Arcanasx wrote: »

Look at it this way. Undeath is still a grossly overperforming passive regardless of whether the player has low or high resistances, as it plays a significant factor in contributing to stalemates.

Also, look at it this way; imagine if there was a passive that would increase all of one's damage by up to 30% depending on how much of your health remains. I shouldn't have to explain why something like that would obviously be highly abusable and OP.

To be fair, there kinda are passives like that in the game. Only they are even MORE like undeath than you theorized. Because execute skill scaling AND the bloodthirsty jewelry trait both scale in the same way the undeath passive does. It is perhaps a fair counterplay to resist execution. How much so is of course up for debate.

StarOfElyon

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

The only people you would punish with this are those who sit under 20k armor. aka the people who are not the problem. Undeath is a nice little bump for a 33k DK but it is not what keeps them alive when they perpetually sit at 75%+ health. Then, even when you do get them down to where Undeath would kick in, diminishing returns drastically decreases what you get from the undeath passive.

Point being, you aren't solving the tank meta even by deleting undeath because we will still be in a tank meta, but everyone trying to kill those tanks on full DPS builds will die to them easier.

I didn't say it was a silver bullet. It might help though. Undeath definitely makes a character tankier at low health. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be generally viewed as a must-have for PvP.

But again, you would be punishing full DPS builds, not the set ups that are causing all the issues. So why would you want to make the people who are pushing the most damage in order to kill those tank DDs easier to kill by those tank DDs?

Look at it this way. Markyn ring is pretty popular, right? People love stacking that extra 200 damage. But 200 extra damage translates to very little extra damage on tooltips, and by the time that gets ran through battle spirit and the target's mitigation, it becomes only a couple hundred extra damage. Why do people run it? A couple hundred extra damage is better than none.

So if you're a 33k armor DK, undeath isn't going to give you "30% damage reduction" ever. But even if you squeak out an extra 5% near the end of your life, it's better than nothing.

It's completely reasonable to suggest nerfing one of the strongest sources of mitigation in the game rather than punishing those who don't eve use that source of mitigation.

edward_frigidhands

ninjagank wrote: »

Changing mitigation or healing or damage will have very little effect.

Healing needs to no longer scale with damage. It should scale with max resource.

The more armor you're wearing should have an adverse effect on your w/s damage. If you're 33k+ resistance in pvp you shouldn't sit at 7k damage and have 15k tooltips.

Make players choose their path. This master of all build style leads to absurdity.

Couldn't agree with that more.

edward_frigidhands

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

I think most pvpers would agree this patch is a little tanky. Allowing everyone to deal 5-10% more dmg would do wonders to end more fights and create less of a stalemate situation and overall a more enjoyable pvp experience.

I know it's a holiday weekend but if an adjustment could be made during an incremental patch that would be pretty huge.

How about we just nerf undeath?

The only people you would punish with this are those who sit under 20k armor. aka the people who are not the problem. Undeath is a nice little bump for a 33k DK but it is not what keeps them alive when they perpetually sit at 75%+ health. Then, even when you do get them down to where Undeath would kick in, diminishing returns drastically decreases what you get from the undeath passive.

Point being, you aren't solving the tank meta even by deleting undeath because we will still be in a tank meta, but everyone trying to kill those tanks on full DPS builds will die to them easier.

I didn't say it was a silver bullet. It might help though. Undeath definitely makes a character tankier at low health. If it wasn't effective, it wouldn't be generally viewed as a must-have for PvP.

But again, you would be punishing full DPS builds, not the set ups that are causing all the issues. So why would you want to make the people who are pushing the most damage in order to kill those tank DDs easier to kill by those tank DDs?

Look at it this way. Markyn ring is pretty popular, right? People love stacking that extra 200 damage. But 200 extra damage translates to very little extra damage on tooltips, and by the time that gets ran through battle spirit and the target's mitigation, it becomes only a couple hundred extra damage. Why do people run it? A couple hundred extra damage is better than none.

So if you're a 33k armor DK, undeath isn't going to give you "30% damage reduction" ever. But even if you squeak out an extra 5% near the end of your life, it's better than nothing.

It's completely reasonable to suggest nerfing one of the strongest sources of mitigation in the game rather than punishing those who don't eve use that source of mitigation.

An easy fix would be substitution of 30% damage reduction with 19800 spell and physical resistance.

FrankonPC

I disagree with the resource scaling for healing. To me that's just an adjustment for adjustment's sake that you'd have to spend patches balancing around when you can already balance it the way it is now.

There are definitely some sources of healing that are overtuned, but identifying it, pointing them out and having facts to get them adjusted will go a further distance than just saying change how they scale which on its own doesn't do much imo.

As far as undeath goes it's pretty clearly the best form of mitigation in the game since almost everyone runs vampire in pvp despite the cost increase. There's not really any cons to it, you're tankier vs flame dmg with it than without, which is the one "downside" that's supposed to happen with vamp.

30% mitigation is a lot and as was said before, there are a lot of different forms of "when at low health survive" modifiers that help create stalemate situations. This one is probably the most egregious though.