Morwe_Haldkan wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Morwe_Haldkan wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

do we play the same class? Some skills like skulls need a rework/more dmg but necro is more versatile than just about every class in the game rn.

Do you like Siphon? Or a skeleton mage?? Or controlling a necromancer?? Have you used these abilities at least once? Tried to kill the enemy using mostly class abilities??? Have you tried long distance? Where your gameplay is blastbones and spam spam spam. Where your spam does no more than 3k damage. Necromancer DPS... 6k blastobns 3k *spam twice... Without a finisher without other powerful abilities, all you need to do is grab a bomber or melee weapon and play melee.

A plar in the distance is stronger than a necromancer... Just think about it. He corny has a procast and the necromancer does not. A class that was intended for ranged combat only fights in close combat....

Siphon is a pve skill, skeleton mage was going to be good this last patch until,dots were nerfed across the board. Most dots are bad and necro is no exception. When I play magcro all I play is ranged so yes.

Necro can play harmony and non harmony. Skills like archer and dots in general could see an adjustment, but siphon in its current state won't be a pvp skill and that's ok. Skull needs an adjustment for sure.

The point is if you're mad at necro versatility, they're more versatile than most classes rn. They have issues ofc but they have more useful skills in pvp than most classes.

That is why this class is not played as often as NB, sorcerer DK ... In 8 hours of playing on BG I see a bunch of NB and two or three necromancers. In each patch there is a build that will be good in pvp. But if you watch YouTube you will see that all necromancers use the same thing and you will rarely see a necromancer kill a sorcerer or nb. This is a whole challenge to get these two classes with a necromancer. Unless, of course, noobs are against you.

Necromancer is a lot better than sorcerer in pvp and I kill sorcs all the time on my necromancer. Nightblade is harder with blastbones mechanics with cloak but not impossible. As far as battlegrounds go I know plenty of high mmr players that play necromancer because harmony is the way to go to kill other 4 man premades. You can also run non harmony options for more mag or stam based as well, which is what i do. It's also naturally the tankiest spec in the game with a great burst heal, great hots, and utility skills that give you major protection/ultigen. It's also arguably one of the best pvp healers for their group utility and survivability. All 3 ultimates are also good in pvp, providing unique playstyles to different specs.

It's a good class. It can definitely see some buffs in the dmg dealing department but relative to other classes it's extremely versatile.

Definitely not a lot better, and in almost all cases I'd rate sorcerer higher than Necromancer with the exceptions being in dueling and certain group compositions.

Necromancer's lost a lot of healing power in U35 so surviving in outnumbered situations became harder, whereas sorcerers can still rely on kiting and going full damage (+ Rallying Cry) and have good damage still.

In groups (or anythnig) a Warden burst overshadows Necromancer's on Harmony, so you don't need to go into that. A sorcerer's negate will always be an incredibly valuable tool, along with the AoE Unblockable CC from streak.

The only credible build I've seen so far for Necromancer's is focused on Master DW + Gryphon Reprisal (Harmony) / Maarselok and focus on pressure.


Regarding BGs: 4 Stamden stack is too dominant right now for any group diversity. A Warden is also a far better healer than Necromancer or any healer in that case.

necromancer's healing is no longer as much of a carry as it used to be. resistant flesh is still arguably the best burst heal in the game with what it provides, mortal coil is still free and good, etc.

harmony builds are often used when you need more dmg due to the tankier nature of off heals. Being able to avoid the gcd system is often pretty valuable. warden's are good this patch but they don't come close to harmony/vulnerability blastbones as far as burst goes.

magicka sorcerer on the other hand is arguably the worst class in the game. Although stam sorc is good, you have one really bad spec and one good one, whereas either for necro are good. you don't have to believe me though, you can just see how many people don't play the class, or listen to a person that has mained and excelled at the class for years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW0EUWsRYfU

So yeah, in summation I disagree with everything you've said here, from personal experience and just what the players are playing.

The sorcerer part is true, pretty obvious and everyone knows that. Using the popularity of a class isn't a good way of saying a class is good or bad either per say, and the 2 classes talked about are the perfect example. People are always playing Magsorc because it is the traditional ''mage'' class. Whereas Necromancers are the least popular class in the game, even if they are the meta. Stamcro was the most common in Alik'r when they were meta, but on the broad scene of PvP they weren't popular.

There is a large portion of the pvp community that migrates to the easiest/best class. There's a reason there were groups of oakensoul/caluurions nightblades last patch and there aren't now. Just looking at pvp in general is a decent gauge at what the overall strength of a class is, because players are choosing what they prefer to play. Sure, there are some diehard players that will play their favorite class, but there were next to no stamdens last patch, and now there are a lot of them. It's not perfect but what people play is typically a good indication of what classes are good as a whole.

The Warden burst VS the Necromancer (harmony) burst debate has more nuance, if you'd only look at the tooltips and everything aligns perfectly (blastbones is messy) the Necromancer burst would be higher on paper if you'd argue Dawnbreaker, Graveyard and Blastbones as the combo. A Necromancer in full damage gear would however be far more susceptible to die in a group compared to a Warden so it would lose damage from there, and the damage is far more telegraphed with blastbones.

Necromancer has 10% unsourced(not a major buff) dmg mitigation via a skill and 15% dot mitigation as well as a great burst heal. This is just not true. Wardens have better self healing overall and stacking 40k health with a warden + polar is a great form of survival, but you don't have to do that with a necromancer. Stacking 30-35k health in similar values and going all dmg scales their burst heal better while also being able to stack slightly more dmg.

Necromancer burst is messier though because warden burst is easier to point and predict. That I agree with.

Dizzy + (2nd) Shalks + Dawnbreaker beats Graveyard + Blastbones / Blastbones + Dawnbreaker. Against good players you can't hit all 3 (Blastbones, Dawnbreaker & Graveyard) without 1 being blocked. People will insantly block and spam Polar Wind after burst.

This argument is only based on the burst damage itself, if we take other things into consideration Warden is leagues ahead of burst Necromancer because it does not rely on other classes for more synergies for group comps, it has worse crosshealing, easier to kill, harder to time burst etc.

graveyard operates out of the GCD system. if you're comparing burst to burst you look at it like this imo:

Warden: Dizzy + Shalks + dawnbreaker = 2 gcds

Necromancer: Dizzy + Blastbones + Dawnbreaker + Graveyard = 2 gcds

There's a lot of good reasons to run warden, burst is easier to point, aoe major and minor on a burst skill allowing your other teammates to stack dmg and not pen, great sources of off healing, not having to rely on a cooldown for harmony, etc. All of these reasons are why a lot of people choose warden over necromancer. As i've stated in this thread multiple times now, a lot of improvements for the offensive kit for necromancer could be improved, but their defensive capabilities are as good as any class in the game.

I also never made the claim that it was better than stamden though, I said it was better than sorc and it's versatile.

Zekka wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

So are you arguing that necromancer's heal is too low then? I don't get what you're trying to prove here. Getting minor defile of your burst heal is offset, meaning it's not a negative effect. The negative of the skill is the cost of the ability.

I think necro's healing is about where it should be but no longer the GOD MODE OP people still claim it to still be. Tether has been toned down and Mender, the main reason for the class ridiculous healing output, nuked and I'm arguing that RF is not the best burst heal skill.
So the healing got nerfed which is relatively fine but it never received anything in terms of reliable offense or crowd control to make up for it which I knew would happen, even the sets you could crutch on for single target pressure like Draugrkin and Savage Werewolf got nerfed, there is the build @Morwe_Haldkan talked about which is very strong but more a of a dueling spec.
The class doesn't have a reliable class ult, Goliath is just a "leave me alone" button and you need either Dark Convergence or a buddy on a class with actual good CC tools for Colossus. Its CC tools are laughable, Totem and Grave Grasp are terrible and Beckoning Armor works against you half the time. Its burst is based on the clunkiest mechanic in the game: synergy from a ground based dot which works when the server decides if it wants to let you deploy the graveyard and let you synergize.

Honestly, I would just outright delete Dark Convergence and give Harmony another nerf (or just repurpose it altogether, it's just not fun to get hit with 9k Ignites by a ball group designated synergy monkey), then rework the class offensive kit to make it based on corpse consuming skills, Animate Blastbones is already halfway there, also make Flaming Skull worth slotting and unfuck its animation.

Complete agree here. Necromancer is quite gimmicky in the way it is always set-up, you always to build completely different depending on the content you do. A dueling magcro

FrankonPC wrote: »

Morwe_Haldkan wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Morwe_Haldkan wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

do we play the same class? Some skills like skulls need a rework/more dmg but necro is more versatile than just about every class in the game rn.

Do you like Siphon? Or a skeleton mage?? Or controlling a necromancer?? Have you used these abilities at least once? Tried to kill the enemy using mostly class abilities??? Have you tried long distance? Where your gameplay is blastbones and spam spam spam. Where your spam does no more than 3k damage. Necromancer DPS... 6k blastobns 3k *spam twice... Without a finisher without other powerful abilities, all you need to do is grab a bomber or melee weapon and play melee.

A plar in the distance is stronger than a necromancer... Just think about it. He corny has a procast and the necromancer does not. A class that was intended for ranged combat only fights in close combat....

Siphon is a pve skill, skeleton mage was going to be good this last patch until,dots were nerfed across the board. Most dots are bad and necro is no exception. When I play magcro all I play is ranged so yes.

Necro can play harmony and non harmony. Skills like archer and dots in general could see an adjustment, but siphon in its current state won't be a pvp skill and that's ok. Skull needs an adjustment for sure.

The point is if you're mad at necro versatility, they're more versatile than most classes rn. They have issues ofc but they have more useful skills in pvp than most classes.

That is why this class is not played as often as NB, sorcerer DK ... In 8 hours of playing on BG I see a bunch of NB and two or three necromancers. In each patch there is a build that will be good in pvp. But if you watch YouTube you will see that all necromancers use the same thing and you will rarely see a necromancer kill a sorcerer or nb. This is a whole challenge to get these two classes with a necromancer. Unless, of course, noobs are against you.

Necromancer is a lot better than sorcerer in pvp and I kill sorcs all the time on my necromancer. Nightblade is harder with blastbones mechanics with cloak but not impossible. As far as battlegrounds go I know plenty of high mmr players that play necromancer because harmony is the way to go to kill other 4 man premades. You can also run non harmony options for more mag or stam based as well, which is what i do. It's also naturally the tankiest spec in the game with a great burst heal, great hots, and utility skills that give you major protection/ultigen. It's also arguably one of the best pvp healers for their group utility and survivability. All 3 ultimates are also good in pvp, providing unique playstyles to different specs.

It's a good class. It can definitely see some buffs in the dmg dealing department but relative to other classes it's extremely versatile.

Definitely not a lot better, and in almost all cases I'd rate sorcerer higher than Necromancer with the exceptions being in dueling and certain group compositions.

Necromancer's lost a lot of healing power in U35 so surviving in outnumbered situations became harder, whereas sorcerers can still rely on kiting and going full damage (+ Rallying Cry) and have good damage still.

In groups (or anythnig) a Warden burst overshadows Necromancer's on Harmony, so you don't need to go into that. A sorcerer's negate will always be an incredibly valuable tool, along with the AoE Unblockable CC from streak.

The only credible build I've seen so far for Necromancer's is focused on Master DW + Gryphon Reprisal (Harmony) / Maarselok and focus on pressure.


Regarding BGs: 4 Stamden stack is too dominant right now for any group diversity. A Warden is also a far better healer than Necromancer or any healer in that case.

necromancer's healing is no longer as much of a carry as it used to be. resistant flesh is still arguably the best burst heal in the game with what it provides, mortal coil is still free and good, etc.

harmony builds are often used when you need more dmg due to the tankier nature of off heals. Being able to avoid the gcd system is often pretty valuable. warden's are good this patch but they don't come close to harmony/vulnerability blastbones as far as burst goes.

magicka sorcerer on the other hand is arguably the worst class in the game. Although stam sorc is good, you have one really bad spec and one good one, whereas either for necro are good. you don't have to believe me though, you can just see how many people don't play the class, or listen to a person that has mained and excelled at the class for years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW0EUWsRYfU

So yeah, in summation I disagree with everything you've said here, from personal experience and just what the players are playing.

The sorcerer part is true, pretty obvious and everyone knows that. Using the popularity of a class isn't a good way of saying a class is good or bad either per say, and the 2 classes talked about are the perfect example. People are always playing Magsorc because it is the traditional ''mage'' class. Whereas Necromancers are the least popular class in the game, even if they are the meta. Stamcro was the most common in Alik'r when they were meta, but on the broad scene of PvP they weren't popular.

There is a large portion of the pvp community that migrates to the easiest/best class. There's a reason there were groups of oakensoul/caluurions nightblades last patch and there aren't now. Just looking at pvp in general is a decent gauge at what the overall strength of a class is, because players are choosing what they prefer to play. Sure, there are some diehard players that will play their favorite class, but there were next to no stamdens last patch, and now there are a lot of them. It's not perfect but what people play is typically a good indication of what classes are good as a whole.

The Warden burst VS the Necromancer (harmony) burst debate has more nuance, if you'd only look at the tooltips and everything aligns perfectly (blastbones is messy) the Necromancer burst would be higher on paper if you'd argue Dawnbreaker, Graveyard and Blastbones as the combo. A Necromancer in full damage gear would however be far more susceptible to die in a group compared to a Warden so it would lose damage from there, and the damage is far more telegraphed with blastbones.

Necromancer has 10% unsourced(not a major buff) dmg mitigation via a skill and 15% dot mitigation as well as a great burst heal. This is just not true. Wardens have better self healing overall and stacking 40k health with a warden + polar is a great form of survival, but you don't have to do that with a necromancer. Stacking 30-35k health in similar values and going all dmg scales their burst heal better while also being able to stack slightly more dmg.

Necromancer burst is messier though because warden burst is easier to point and predict. That I agree with.

Dizzy + (2nd) Shalks + Dawnbreaker beats Graveyard + Blastbones / Blastbones + Dawnbreaker. Against good players you can't hit all 3 (Blastbones, Dawnbreaker & Graveyard) without 1 being blocked. People will insantly block and spam Polar Wind after burst.

This argument is only based on the burst damage itself, if we take other things into consideration Warden is leagues ahead of burst Necromancer because it does not rely on other classes for more synergies for group comps, it has worse crosshealing, easier to kill, harder to time burst etc.

graveyard operates out of the GCD system. if you're comparing burst to burst you look at it like this imo:

Warden: Dizzy + Shalks + dawnbreaker = 2 gcds

Necromancer: Dizzy + Blastbones + Dawnbreaker + Graveyard = 2 gcds

There's a lot of good reasons to run warden, burst is easier to point, aoe major and minor on a burst skill allowing your other teammates to stack dmg and not pen, great sources of off healing, not having to rely on a cooldown for harmony, etc. All of these reasons are why a lot of people choose warden over necromancer. As i've stated in this thread multiple times now, a lot of improvements for the offensive kit for necromancer could be improved, but their defensive capabilities are as good as any class in the game.

I also never made the claim that it was better than stamden though, I said it was better than sorc and it's versatile.

Stamdens have higher healing through many abilities such as Budding Seed, Green Lotus, Vines etc. 10% more healing when chilled etc. There is a reason why you don’t see any Necro’s in GvGs anymore on PC/EU. If they are specced to get near the damage of a Stamden they will get sent to the shadowrealm in no time compared to their Stamden counterparts.

People will move out of the Graveyard the second they see it mate, no good player will fall for this and remain standing in there to allow you use your full cooldowns on them.

Still a hard disagree on the Necromancer > Sorcerer. Necromancer isn’t versatile in any means to just put in a group and it works, if however kitted rightly they definitely are versatile in the ways they are set-up. Different ways of argueing if it is versatile or not. A bowsorc would function into any group on their standard builds.