Is ESO going into "Maintenance" mode soon?

Stamicka · September 2022

Depends, are you a casual solo quester? If you are then ESO has a ton of stuff on the horizon I’m sure.

If you are a PvPer ESO is genuinely in maintenance mode. PvP hasn’t seen anything new or improved for like 5 years now. I suspect that endgame PVErs will start to see a similar lack of support soon.

SaffronCitrusflower · September 2022

Reverb wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

2 million players? ESO doesn’t have anywhere near 2 million real, active players. If they picked up 2 million new accounts over the course of the past year, that actually suggests an even sharper decline in long-time players and bodes worse for the overall health of the community.

The vast, overwhelming majority of accounts are inactive, barely active, or bots. Their daily players total maybe 200,000. The more you inflate that total account number, the worse that active player count is.

I wonder how many people have formed personal guild banks with inactive and additional accounts just for storage purposes.

Many, many people bought 9 accounts for $5 each, on sale, to form private guild banks. We’ll never know how many people, but assume it’s in the thousands.

Offshore botters and RMT agencies also create new account each time they are banned, further adding to the false numbers.

Zeni has an interest in never letting the “active player” numbers be known. Because we can be sure it doesn’t tell a good story compared to the overall sales numbers.

I agree. I think the number of actual active players is way lower than their sales report shows.

I've been saying for a long time they need to increase the population cap in cyrodiil to revive PvP. But I'm not sure it would make any difference anymore. Now I think the only thing that would make ESO better is some direct competition in it's genre.

SaffronCitrusflower · September 2022

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

Why would these hypothetical thousands of people go through the effort of buying 9 (nine??) accounts even at 5 bucks a pop, just to make a personal guild bank?

If no friends have slots available, just ask in zone chat if people want to help you out and temporarily join your guild until you have 10 members. There's always new players around, so just go to a starter zone and offer them some gold for the effort.

I really really doubt that it's common to buy 10 accounts.

I know a surprising number of players that have formed person guild banks. Many did so recently while U35 was on the PTS.

Kingsindarkness · September 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

Depends, are you a casual solo quester? If you are then ESO has a ton of stuff on the horizon I’m sure.

If you are a PvPer ESO is genuinely in maintenance mode. PvP hasn’t seen anything new or improved for like 5 years now. I suspect that endgame PVErs will start to see a similar lack of support soon.

Okay I'm not going to disagree with that...and I hope you take what I am about to say logically and not as a slight...

As much as Zenimax wanted PVP to be a integral part of the end game it just didn't take off...but you know the arena system is doing quite well. If open world PVP is a bust then I'm betting they can bolster the Arena system even more...add a quest line to it similar to the old TES games

I doubt seriously though that PVE players will stop seeing support as they are the games bread and butter, and it's pretty obvious that the game is cracking despite the wishes of people whom the game has failed personally.

I think as time goes on less and less attention will be payed to PVPers and the Raiding community, because lets face it they are and probably always will be unhappy no matter what and they are such a small percentage of the overall player base.

I know no one agrees with me from those communities but I think it's commendable of the Devs to keep trying to support those audiences especially considering all the hate they get. They could just as easily turn Cyrodiil into a PVE expansion and drop the expense of creating Trials...sure people would leave but the amount would be negligible and PVE expansion of Cyrodiil would bring in a lot of TES fans especially if it has the quality of say Orsinium.

But I don't want that I hope we keep all of our different communities. I just don't think it will happen which is sad.

Edited for sensitivity and clarity

Stamicka · September 2022

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Depends, are you a casual solo quester? If you are then ESO has a ton of stuff on the horizon I’m sure.

If you are a PvPer ESO is genuinely in maintenance mode. PvP hasn’t seen anything new or improved for like 5 years now. I suspect that endgame PVErs will start to see a similar lack of support soon.

Okay I'm not going to disagree with that...and I hope you take what I am about to say logically and not as a slight...

As much as Zenimax wanted PVP to be a integral part of the end game it just didn't take off...but you know the arena system is doing quite well. If open world PVP is a bust then I'm betting they can bolster the Arena system even more...add a quest line to it similar to the old TES games

I doubt seriously though that PVE players will stop seeing support as they are the games bread and butter, and it's pretty obvious that the game is cracking despite the wishes of people whom the game has failed personally.

I think as time goes on less and less attention will be payed to PVPers and the Raiding community, because lets face it they are and probably always will be unhappy no matter what and they are such a small percentage of the overall player base.

I know no one agrees with me from those communities but I think it's commendable of the Devs to keep trying to support those audiences especially considering all the hate they get. They could just as easily turn Cyrodiil into a PVE expansion and drop the expense of creating Trials...sure people would leave but the amount would be negligible and PVE expansion of Cyrodiil would bring in a lot of TES fans especially if it has the quality of say Orsinium.

But I don't want that I hope we keep all of our different communities. I just don't think it will happen which is sad.

Edited for sensitivity and clarity

PvP did take off though, lots of people loved the huge battles, Cyrodiil's format, and the games combat. Eventually performance got too bad to handle, proc sets were introduced, and population caps were reduced. The result is that very few people stuck around and continued to PvP, that's where we are now. It was pretty successful in the beginning.

Most PvE players will continue to see support I agree, probably not the raiders though. I'm just waiting for the chapter where ZOS doesn't include a new trial at all.

Shadesofkin · September 2022

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

MrLasagna wrote: »

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

The two million people the game has picked up in the last year would like to have a word with you....also you realize you don't speak for everyone right?

if you look at steam charts

right, because everyone plays on Steam...

I was just thinking about this...Ive been playing 8 years, I don't use Steam

Kingsindarkness · September 2022

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

MrLasagna wrote: »

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

The two million people the game has picked up in the last year would like to have a word with you....also you realize you don't speak for everyone right?

if you look at steam charts

right, because everyone plays on Steam...

I was just thinking about this...Ive been playing 8 years, I don't use Steam

Steam was so laggy can't see how anyone could use it.

xthrshx · October 2022

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

Yes cause the most played MMO in the world is going to go to Maintenance mode. Honestly where do these people come from.

Not even close.

xthrshx · October 2022

Stamicka wrote: »

Depends, are you a casual solo quester? If you are then ESO has a ton of stuff on the horizon I’m sure.

If you are a PvPer ESO is genuinely in maintenance mode. PvP hasn’t seen anything new or improved for like 5 years now. I suspect that endgame PVErs will start to see a similar lack of support soon.

Exactly this. ESO has been maintenance mode for PVP for years. End-game PVE is entering maintenance mode right now. ESO is becoming a solo game in a shared open world: competitive and group content is dwindling as the game caters to casual solo players.

adriant1978 · October 2022

The length of time we have gone without a new class or even a new weapon skill line makes me think that it's probably in maintenance mode at least as far as mechanics go.

UnabashedlyHonest · October 2022

tohopka_eso wrote: »

Which is a small comparison still. As I said I don't play thru steam and my point still stands on a game in maintenance mode

According to the poll results, 1/3 of ESO players responding say they play through steam. That means there are plenty enough data points to use that information as a reliable trend across the board.

spartaxoxo · October 2022

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

tohopka_eso wrote: »

Which is a small comparison still. As I said I don't play thru steam and my point still stands on a game in maintenance mode

According to the poll results, 1/3 of ESO players responding say they play through steam. That means there are plenty enough data points to use that information as a reliable trend across the board.

Not really. Playing through Steam is a non-random sample that may indicate particular biases about play behavior that would indicate that trend. People who play through Steam rn may be more likely to play a competing product, for example, because there's a lot more competition on Steam and people who use Steam may be more likely to switch games as a result.

spartaxoxo · October 2022

xthrshx wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Depends, are you a casual solo quester? If you are then ESO has a ton of stuff on the horizon I’m sure.

If you are a PvPer ESO is genuinely in maintenance mode. PvP hasn’t seen anything new or improved for like 5 years now. I suspect that endgame PVErs will start to see a similar lack of support soon.

Exactly this. ESO has been maintenance mode for PVP for years. End-game PVE is entering maintenance mode right now.

Endgame PVE got a trial and new dungeons at their regular release cadence, so no, that's not true of endgame PVE. Only pvp entered maintenance mode.

Kingsindarkness · October 2022

adriant1978 wrote: »

The length of time we have gone without a new class or even a new weapon skill line makes me think that it's probably in maintenance mode at least as far as mechanics go.

Adding a new class throws a wrench in everything else....look at the state of combat, raid meta etc...

Now add a new class like say Druid. It would be absolute chaos. I think what they want to do instead is focus on the whole you can be any type of player you want (Wizard with a sword Spell slinging Dragonknght ) than hard and fast classes.

adriant1978 · October 2022

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

The length of time we have gone without a new class or even a new weapon skill line makes me think that it's probably in maintenance mode at least as far as mechanics go.

Adding a new class throws a wrench in everything else....look at the state of combat, raid meta etc...

Now add a new class like say Druid. It would be absolute chaos. I think what they want to do instead is focus on the whole you can be any type of player you want (Wizard with a sword Spell slinging Dragonknght ) than hard and fast classes.

That's all very well but without new skills and abilities, be they from new classes or new weapon skill lines, the gameplay becomes old and stale. There's no incentive to roll a new character if they play exactly like your old character.

To this day, 8 years in, we still only have a choice of flame staff or lightning staff for magicka DPS. It's getting dull. Where's my bound weapons? Or one-handed and rune?

spartaxoxo · October 2022

adriant1978 wrote: »

The length of time we have gone without a new class or even a new weapon skill line makes me think that it's probably in maintenance mode at least as far as mechanics go.

The mechanics have received constant balance changes, new gear, etc. Maintenance mode isn't defined that narrowly, and even if it were, this would still be incorrect due to the aforementioned changes.

Maintenance mode would mean very little to no balance changes whatsoever.

Wanting a new class doesn't invalidate all other changes to the game. It perhaps invalidates your desire to purchase stuff.

But when a game goes into maintenance mode, the game almost completely or completely stops receiving any updates whatsoever outside of the occasional bug fixes. And even those aren't common because they won't patch small bugs either. It's a skeleton crew doing the bare minimum to keep the game maintained.

adriant1978 · October 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

The length of time we have gone without a new class or even a new weapon skill line makes me think that it's probably in maintenance mode at least as far as mechanics go.

The mechanics have received constant balance changes, new gear, etc. Maintenance mode isn't defined that narrowly, and even if it were, it would still be wrong due to the aforementioned changes.

Maintenance mode would mean very little to no balance changes whatsoever.

Wanting a new class doesn't invalidate all other changes to the game

"Balance changes" aren't a feature that sells DLC or makes people want to roll a new character. That's just the general churn that goes along with running an MMO, buff this / nerf that, etc.

spartaxoxo · October 2022

adriant1978 wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

adriant1978 wrote: »

The length of time we have gone without a new class or even a new weapon skill line makes me think that it's probably in maintenance mode at least as far as mechanics go.

The mechanics have received constant balance changes, new gear, etc. Maintenance mode isn't defined that narrowly, and even if it were, it would still be wrong due to the aforementioned changes.

Maintenance mode would mean very little to no balance changes whatsoever.

Wanting a new class doesn't invalidate all other changes to the game

"Balance changes" aren't a feature that sells DLC or makes people want to roll a new character. That's just the general churn that goes along with running an MMO, buff this / nerf that, etc.

It doesn't matter if it sells DLC or not, it mostly doesn't happen in a game in maintenance mode because a game in maintenance mode is not trying to sell new copies or keep the population healthy. They are just simply making more than enough money to maintain a skeleton crew to keep it running for the people already there.

spartaxoxo · October 2022

Here's Guild Wars 1 (this game is maintenance mode because Guild Wars 2 is now the real game) patch notes for the past year, as provided by DaniKat in the other thread.

DaniKat wrote: »

For example here's the updates Guild Wars 1 has had in the past year:
Update -- May 11, 2022: Server maintenance build
Update -- April 14, 2022: Game routing tables updated to provide access to new datacenter in Seoul, Korea.
Update -- March 30, 2022: Server maintenance build.
Update -- August 30, 2021: Fixed a bug where players with their territory set to Japan were prompted to enter a CD key but it was improperly rejected.
Update -- August 24, 2021: Fixed a server crash, Fixed a bug where players with their territory set to Japan could not enter a CD key.

That's what a game looks like in maintenance mode. PvP can said to be in this state (as admitted by the devs tho they don't use that term), no other aspect of the game can be.

Ghanima_Atreides · October 2022

To be fair, SWTOR makes balance changes all the time, and that game has been in maintenance mode for years. Star Trek Online, another old maintenance mode game, still tweaks stuff as well.

spartaxoxo · October 2022

Ghanima_Atreides wrote: »

To be fair, SWTOR makes balance changes all the time, and that game has been in maintenance mode for years. Star Trek Online, another old maintenance mode game, still tweaks stuff as well.

SWTOR just had a dev leave prompting a comment from the Studio about their commitment to the game in July and discussing updates. Not a game in maintenance mode.

https://www.gameinformer.com/2022/07/19/star-wars-the-old-republic-director-leaves-bioware-announces-commitment-to-the-mmorpg

ETA

Same is true of Star Trek Online

https://bleedingcool.com/games/wesley-crusher-comes-to-star-trek-online-in-next-expansion/

Sounds more to me like players misusing the term, and being called out for it by other players of the game (from discussions on those sites forums that I found), then games actually in maintenance mode. But I don't play either game so if you know something those studios have said that I don't, feel free to link it.

Eta
I think a lot of players use it to say they don't get as much content as they'd like or that the content they did get was bad. Which is not what the term means, but is a common usage. It's hyperbole, not something worthy of legitimate consideration as actually occuring. There's nothing wrong with a little hyperbole, but let's not pretend it's the actual reality of the situation.

martinhpb16_ESO · October 2022

Maybe not maintenance mode but Steadyeddy makes some really incisive points here about the decline of endgame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgidwlwpJBE

spartaxoxo · October 2022

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Maybe not maintenance mode but Steadyeddy makes some really incisive points here about the decline of endgame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgidwlwpJBE

A lot of endgamers will hate me for saying it, but I think a major issue is the normal vet is too hard on a lot of the endgame trials, which demotivates people from truly trying before they start leading to an unhealthy rate of replacement. A lot of games I've played there was a PUG scene for this stuff. PUGS were garbage and vast majority of the the players who did them preferred (ETA: organized/guild) raids. But, it was something that decently skilled people could stay up late with some cans of red bull to try and get done. Sometimes they succeeded and sometimes they fell apart. In another game I played I'd estimate the top 10% of players did them and the top 1% we're good enough to do leaderboards and sell carries and the likes. The equivalent to being done hard modes in this game.

Vevvev · October 2022

MrLasagna wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

MrLasagna wrote: »

if you look at steam charts

right, because everyone plays on Steam...

Do you know what statistic trends are?
Can you understand that if people are decreasing on Steam it means that they all decresing on all platform?

Little use arguing with people like that. You're right, but because the fact not everyone uses Steam they feel like they can completely ignore the metric completely.

Think the only time Steam Charts was actually inaccurate when it came to ESO was during the couple of years there was the account errors that'd force kick people out who used Steam. Had to start without the Steam login to even get in during that time, but I haven't seen that happen before on a large scale in a long time.

Tandor · October 2022

Whenever people talk about PvP, they only ever mention Cyrodiil.

How popular are Battlegrounds? Imperial City? Duelling?

Arthtur · October 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Maybe not maintenance mode but Steadyeddy makes some really incisive points here about the decline of endgame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgidwlwpJBE

A lot of endgamers will hate me for saying it, but I think a major issue is the normal vet is too hard on a lot of the endgame trials, which demotivates people from truly trying before they start leading to an unhealthy rate of replacement. A lot of games I've played there was a PUG scene for this stuff. PUGS were garbage and vast majority of the the players who did them preferred raids. But, it was something that decently skilled people could stay up late with some cans of red bull to try and get done. Sometimes they succeeded and sometimes they fell apart. In another game I played I'd estimate the top 10% of players did them and the top 1% we're good enough to do leaderboards and sell carries and the likes. The equivalent to being done hard modes in this game.

Vet trials arent that hard. However... Ppl in this game have sooooo much problems with any mechanics. I cant tell how many times group was struggling just because 1 player didnt know anything and was wiping the group all the time. And when u try to help and explain u get: Silence, "U Toxic Elitist", "Its tank's fault", "I dont care"... Maybe 1 player out of 10 will actually learn and thank you for help.
Like, u can see this in normal DLC dungeons. Ppl dont want to do them because there are mechs that u have to do and they dont want to learn about it on 3rd party website or video. I blame ZOS for that one because that falls under tutorial stuff.
I mean... what im supposed to do when after telling a DD to interrupt the boss i get "I dont have a space on a bar for that"? I can explain mechs, but basics of combat? In vet dungeons (as im not doing normal dungeons)? When this is even in overland? Is this content fault, or somebody is too lazy to actually learn about basics that takes maybe 5m?
The most crazy situation in trial i had was: i with my friend did more damage to the boss in vet trial than 7 other DDs together. And it was vHRC, its rather a simple parse boss. Is this trial fault? Mine? My friend? Or maybe bad tutorials? Players who refuse to even actually try?
My friend was doing around 40k dps when i started playing with him. After a week he hit 80k. All he did is some training about keeping his dots up, learning which skills and sets are good. Is this rly that hard? He got this all while playing the game with me.
And lets not start about that not everyone is able to it because of real life stuff. While its true, there are builds (HA ones) that are really simple and are good enough for vet trials. And if even HA builds are too hard then sorry but thats not a problem with the game.

If we want to talk about number of players that is able to do this harder content... its not that its low. Its just... players who can do it leave all the time because of what ZOS is doing. Its hard to get more players for that content when u lose them 24/7.
It was said many times already tho.
Did u heard about Project Vitality? At some point there was over 200 trial leaders ready to help players get into vet trials. After U35 that number dropped to under... 70. There were some other reason for few but 90% of them resigned because of U35. How are we supposed to get ppl into harder content when ZOS is destroying everything players worked on? Is this content fault too?

Content difficulty is the lowest problem with lack of players in harder content. Even bugs are higher than that (ever heard about add in Stone Garden that can kill u after he died?).

RazielSR · October 2022

ESO is on manteinance mode since the main creators left. It is a common thing with mmos. Later the other common thing happened: pr staff saying they were gonna listen a lot more to the community.

SaffronCitrusflower · October 2022

spartaxoxo wrote: »

xthrshx wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Depends, are you a casual solo quester? If you are then ESO has a ton of stuff on the horizon I’m sure.

If you are a PvPer ESO is genuinely in maintenance mode. PvP hasn’t seen anything new or improved for like 5 years now. I suspect that endgame PVErs will start to see a similar lack of support soon.

Exactly this. ESO has been maintenance mode for PVP for years. End-game PVE is entering maintenance mode right now.

Endgame PVE got a trial and new dungeons at their regular release cadence, so no, that's not true of endgame PVE. Only pvp entered maintenance mode.

Well, at least you recognize PvP is and has been in maintenance mode for at least some time.

BahometZ · October 2022

If the aesthetics of ESO appeal to you, then you're sitting pretty. But if the mechanics of ESO appeal to you, I would be a little alarmed.

Someone already said as much, but for a certain type of player, ESO has been very engaging for the last few years and looks to be firmly in your wheelhouse for the discernible future. No signs of maintenance mode, just a calculated dip during a global pandemic (remember that?). There is a lot of QoL improvements coming to the game and new features (of questionable appeal admittedly). Lots of events to engage with too. I think your perspective comes down to how involved in very particular activitites you are.

But ESO is very much catering to the "ooh pretty things" solo adventurer. Someone who is more than happy to just pick a direction and run there to see what happens, with their crown crate mount, cute companion and an absolute chaotic collection of skills chosen by how they look more than what they do. They might occasionally do group content through one of the mega guilds they joined through zone chat spam, which will usually involve skyshard hunting and world boss or delve dailies. This is the player they are nurturing.

And if you're a collector there is an endless pit to sink time into, ZOS have been very diligent in adding more and longer grinds. Roleplayers, housing aficianados, anyone who is more engaged with the social side of the game, that's a key audience. If you like pretty things, and have money, the art department is churning out great work for you. The art department is absolutely carrying the game right now.

A small fraction of these people might start to dabble in veteran content on occasion, where disappointment awaits.

People for whom combat mechanics and challenge is more important are not being fed the same level of content. It's somewhat understandable, because it's gotta be easier to make a cool statue and sell it for $50 than to work out how a new skill would fit into the already large suite of skills. Or what new combat element can we create with existing assets. Remember lead dev said the game is constrained by old tech.

PvP is a hot mess with the most meaningful content being which broken set will be added next. Combat team seems incapable of balancing all classes at same time. Not listening to pts feedback is also a feature. No new classes, no new skill lines, no new races, no new pvp content, the only "new" thing they want to do is change fundamental combat elements and nerf/buff/nerf already existing skills/classes. That element of messing around with already existing features instead of working on new ones is what gives people a sense of maintenance mode I think. It feels like spinning on the end of a yoyo.

Update 34 was in a really good place, and people had the impression future changes would be minimal, tinkering at the edges, that hybridisation would have further work put into it to finish the phase, and perhaps resources could then be put into the next class or skill line. After 6-7 years you might start to expect some stability. But no, we got what we got, and people already sick and tired of the yoyo, and seeing no end to combat devs navel-gazing, dipped out. End game is not dead but it's on life support, the small population has plummeted. People have closed ranks.

It's a real shame, because the encounters team, the people who develop the dungeons and trials, are doing phenomenal work. With the tools at their disposal they are creating novel engagements, even with some reused mechs and assets.

I and others have expressed some of the above and a tonne more, elaborating on the numerous disappointments experienced trying to engage with endgame content: The continuously buggy everything that can literally halt progression in its tracks, like invisible or non-functioning mechs; the poor rewards for completing some of the hardest content in game, in comparison to what can be bought; the chaotic and dishonest nature of combat changes, if you know you know.

I personally really like every aspect of ESO, I quest, I collect, I raid, I house, I pvp, so if one part of the game suffers I see it, and maybe I take a break from it to focus elsewhere in ESO. But for people who focus on that aspect, they aren't going to other aspects of ESO, they are going to another game.

Oh and I think talk of player population is utterly pointless. No conclusions can be made for 20 million reasons.

tldr; crown store prioritised over rewards, casual aesthetics focused over engaging content, we want new skill/class/race, combat team bad, fix bugs

spartaxoxo · October 2022

Arthtur wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Maybe not maintenance mode but Steadyeddy makes some really incisive points here about the decline of endgame

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgidwlwpJBE

A lot of endgamers will hate me for saying it, but I think a major issue is the normal vet is too hard on a lot of the endgame trials, which demotivates people from truly trying before they start leading to an unhealthy rate of replacement. A lot of games I've played there was a PUG scene for this stuff. PUGS were garbage and vast majority of the the players who did them preferred raids. But, it was something that decently skilled people could stay up late with some cans of red bull to try and get done. Sometimes they succeeded and sometimes they fell apart. In another game I played I'd estimate the top 10% of players did them and the top 1% we're good enough to do leaderboards and sell carries and the likes. The equivalent to being done hard modes in this game.

Vet trials arent that hard. However... Ppl in this game have sooooo much problems with any mechanics. I cant tell how many times group was struggling just because 1 player didnt know anything and was wiping the group all the time.

You and your friend might be able to do it, but it's not everyone, it's most that cannot hit that kind of dps. It's like 1% of the playerbase. Top 10% is probably at like 50k DPS or something much lower than is standard for trials. But far, far more than the companions, which are tuned around the average damage output of the playerbase.