Why is the skill gap bigger?

Captain_Devildog · September 2022

So i felt the skill gap became much bigger then before, and now i'm starting to refuse helping randoms. I liked to do it before i can do HM solo i got an amazing proc group. But when i play with randoms i just let them die because i rather have my companion in the group. My companion can do more damge or better tanking so i just finish dungeons on my own even when the randoms died.
So now i just can't carry randoms anymore i just play with them for the pledge or the random dungeon thing but they are just decoration.

Why is the skill gap bigger?
Their damage sucks they die very fast. And i just put heals on for them and that's not even enough.
I don't understand i used to like carrying randoms to achievements.

VictorDragonslayer · September 2022

Who could've predicted that nerfing damage and healing will make players to sweat harder in order to achieve previous results? /s

The optimal solution is to not play vet content with randoms. There were no accessibility in U35, ZOS reinforced the principle "try harder or go away". Skill gap can be made smaller only by teaching, but when some teachers are tired and some pupils' awareness is on par with one of a non-combat pet, well... you get what we have now.

FeedbackOnly · September 2022

Because they didn't adapt people

Tan9oSuccka · September 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Because they didn't adapt people

Adapt, like Mag Sorcs running 2H crit charge back bar? 😂

BlueRaven · September 2022

The skill gap is larger because high end players have a drive to have the best dps possible. They adapt, grind gear, experiment, and communicate.

Lower tier players are generally fine with “good enough”. They are slower to change, and have less access to gear to adapt against negative changes. Also many probably won’t even start changes until they get access to a build video/site that directly address their class and spec.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2022

BlueRaven wrote: »

The skill gap is larger because high end players have a drive to have the best dps possible. They adapt, grind gear, experiment, and communicate.

Lower tier players are generally fine with “good enough”. They are slower to change, and have less access to gear to adapt against negative changes. Also many probably won’t even start changes until they get access to a build video/site that directly address their class and spec.

That and many of them are unaware how much their damage has been affected and they should swap around their bars for different skills. Folks who parse periodically have realized this but most people just don't.

UnabashedlyHonest · September 2022

U35 is why the skill gap is so much wider now.

Prof_Bawbag · September 2022

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

U35 is why the skill gap is so much wider now.

Not true. I blame the healer.

zaria · September 2022

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

U35 is why the skill gap is so much wider now.

This, like on all large combat changes the more causal players are slow to update builds and will often go for the wrong ones.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

Weaving basic skills is just not that hard, and really only adds like 10-12% DPS, but what we have now on multiple classes are inconsistent weave timers. That is a far bigger issue.

Both sorc and templar, probably the two easiest specs to play historically, have a .8 second channel for the spammable. Yes it can be weaved, but its almost certainly different timing than every other skill. Throw in that for some reason, it makes sense to have stampede be the best back bar ground DOT (I wish they would just nerf this skill into the ground as a bandaid), you now have a mandatory back bar skill that also has a wonky weave. Not to mention, all of the above skills cause bar swapping issues as well. In the case of sorc, throw in Overload, which has its own weave, and now you have the 2 easiest classes with 3-4 distinct weave timings. That has exploded the skill gap. I am a pretty darn good sorc. I have never struggled more with the meta sorc rotation than I have right now. I would argue that the current meta sorc rotation is the most difficult rotation in ESO since launch.

Another and perhaps bigger issue, is ZOS missed the mark on skill duration. We dont need longer skills, we need CONSISTANT skill timers. Nothing lines up these days. I would argue that skills longer than about 10-12 seconds become more difficult to manage, not easier. You end up playing a minigame about trying to make decisions about what is worth the cast or not, and its also easier to forget about them. I am finding personally, that especially in execute, the game has gotten harder, not easier with this change. Again, skill gap bigger.

Lastly, group buffs. Not only do they have the number 2 problem of inconsistent timers, ZOS keeps introducing gear and buffs that really can only be utilized to their fullest potential by highly coordinated groups. Every patch, it gets harder and harder to keep up buffs in an optimal manner.

ZOS needs to take a step back.

First: They need to reevaluate skill duration and figure out a way to have all skills be multiples of each other, so static rotations lineup well. Perhaps certain class skills at 6 seconds (curse, shalks, Talons, POTL, Etc) like they are, the vast majority of DOTs and Set procs at double that, 12 seconds, that way not only do you DOTs lineup, it takes less effort to micro manage sets. Have a handful of skills that make sense to have a longer duration at 24 seconds, and maybe a few long duration buffs at 48 seconds. That way everything can lineup nice and neat, and the advantage of a dynamic rotation over a static rotation is minimized. I would also eliminate class passives that increase skill duration, and avoid morphs of the same skill with different duration (lighting flood, blockade, etc.). Could also do 5. 10. 20 40 seconds. Just make them consistent multiples.

Second: Fix weaving. 0.8 second channels are a nightmare. Figure out how to make them weave the same as other skills or remove them. Don't get me wrong, sweeps being .8 over 1.0 is an improvement, and I dont mind some channeled skills for variety, but things like hard cast frags simply need removed. Make it instant cast so it can be weaved and bar swapped from in the same way as every other skill, adjust the damage as necessary. Why is a channeled hard cast frags better for the game? Make the base skill instant cast, make the proc hit harder and cost less. The ceiling potential is identical, the floor potential would be raised significantly.

Third: Take a look at the obvious group buffs, and figure out a way to make them fit better into a reasonable support build and rotation. I cant imagine having to manage something like Minor Brittle these days as a tank, what a freaking nightmare. I am all for a good group being able to help their DPS better than a bad group, but give the bad groups a fighting chance.

I have been echoing most of these sentiments for a few months. @code65536 said it better on the PTS forum. It should be required reading for everyone at ZOS, and every player on this forum. ZOS, give that man a job and pay him well. He knows the game from a combat mechanic standpoint better than anybody I know, and I would venture, better than almost anyone that is currently employed by ZOS. That is not meant to be a dig at any specific dev, just a factual statement about how much he knows. It really is mind-blowing

Code's Post:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611505/why-the-changes-in-update-35-miss-the-mark-and-fail-to-fix-the-issues-that-it-seeks-to-address/p1

For those that like Videos, Skinny Cheeks dives into the post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArpuZKqDekc

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

BlueRaven wrote: »

The skill gap is larger because high end players have a drive to have the best dps possible. They adapt, grind gear, experiment, and communicate.

Lower tier players are generally fine with “good enough”. They are slower to change, and have less access to gear to adapt against negative changes. Also many probably won’t even start changes until they get access to a build video/site that directly address their class and spec.

I think this oversimplifies the issue, and lets ZOS off the hook. Of course meta players put more time into the game and generally have more knowledge. You will also never hear me say that someone that spends an hour a week playing the game should be able to do the same damage as someone who raids 7 days a week. That said, there are a lot of things that could be done by ZOS to meaningfully close, not eliminate, that gap. They have not done so, despite repeatedly stating that lowering that gap is one of their main goals.

I really only see two options. They dont understand what is causing the skill gap, or they dont actually have any intention of reducing it.

zaria · September 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

Weaving basic skills is just not that hard, and really only adds like 10-12% DPS, but what we have now on multiple classes are inconsistent weave timers. That is a far bigger issue.

Both sorc and templar, probably the two easiest specs to play historically, have a .8 second channel for the spammable. Yes it can be weaved, but its almost certainly different timing than every other skill. Throw in that for some reason, it makes sense to have stampede be the best back bar ground DOT (I wish they would just nerf this skill into the ground as a bandaid), you now have a mandatory back bar skill that also has a wonky weave. Not to mention, all of the above skills cause bar swapping issues as well. In the case of sorc, throw in Overload, which has its own weave, and now you have the 2 easiest classes with 3-4 distinct weave timings. That has exploded the skill gap. I am a pretty darn good sorc. I have never struggled more with the meta sorc rotation than I have right now. I would argue that the current meta sorc rotation is the most difficult rotation in ESO since launch.

Another and perhaps bigger issue, is ZOS missed the mark on skill duration. We dont need longer skills, we need CONSISTANT skill timers. Nothing lines up these days. I would argue that skills longer than about 10-12 seconds become more difficult to manage, not easier. You end up playing a minigame about trying to make decisions about what is worth the cast or not, and its also easier to forget about them. I am finding personally, that especially in execute, the game has gotten harder, not easier with this change. Again, skill gap bigger.

Lastly, group buffs. Not only do they have the number 2 problem of inconsistent timers, ZOS keeps introducing gear and buffs that really can only be utilized to their fullest potential by highly coordinated groups. Every patch, it gets harder and harder to keep up buffs in an optimal manner.

ZOS needs to take a step back.

First: They need to reevaluate skill duration and figure out a way to have all skills be multiples of each other, so static rotations lineup well. Perhaps certain class skills at 6 seconds (curse, shalks, Talons, POTL, Etc) like they are, the vast majority of DOTs and Set procs at double that, 12 seconds, that way not only do you DOTs lineup, it takes less effort to micro manage sets. Have a handful of skills that make sense to have a longer duration at 24 seconds, and maybe a few long duration buffs at 48 seconds. That way everything can lineup nice and neat, and the advantage of a dynamic rotation over a static rotation is minimized. I would also eliminate class passives that increase skill duration, and avoid morphs of the same skill with different duration (lighting flood, blockade, etc.). Could also do 5. 10. 20 40 seconds. Just make them consistent multiples.

Second: Fix weaving. 0.8 second channels are a nightmare. Figure out how to make them weave the same as other skills or remove them. Don't get me wrong, sweeps being .8 over 1.0 is an improvement, and I dont mind some channeled skills for variety, but things like hard cast frags simply need removed. Make it instant cast so it can be weaved and bar swapped from in the same way as every other skill, adjust the damage as necessary. Why is a channeled hard cast frags better for the game? Make the base skill instant cast, make the proc hit harder and cost less. The ceiling potential is identical, the floor potential would be raised significantly.

Third: Take a look at the obvious group buffs, and figure out a way to make them fit better into a reasonable support build and rotation. I cant imagine having to manage something like Minor Brittle these days as a tank, what a freaking nightmare. I am all for a good group being able to help their DPS better than a bad group, but give the bad groups a fighting chance.

I have been echoing most of these sentiments for a few months. @code65536 said it better on the PTS forum. It should be required reading for everyone at ZOS, and every player on this forum. ZOS, give that man a job and pay him well. He knows the game from a combat mechanic standpoint better than anybody I know, and I would venture, better than almost anyone that is currently employed by ZOS. That is not meant to be a dig at any specific dev, just a factual statement about how much he knows. It really is mind-blowing

Code's Post:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611505/why-the-changes-in-update-35-miss-the-mark-and-fail-to-fix-the-issues-that-it-seeks-to-address/p1

For those that like Videos, Skinny Cheeks dives into the post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArpuZKqDekc

This so much, self buffs should be pretty long lasting like 30-36 seconds and pretty standardized, dots 10-12 seconds.
Group buffs the same for the major one, minor ones should be the 30-36. Buff or nerf skills as needed.
Yes you can nerf with other tools than

Dr_Con · September 2022

so I normally tank dungeons, but every so often when I random queue I'll notice that it's me, the healer with 2k+ cp, and some low CP players with like 80 cp (though this problem isn't native to low CP players, I have seen 500-700 cp players still pull in pretty bad dps). After the first pull (that typically I'm not the one pulling) I'll notice a slow burn, like 1 minute on a trash pull. This pacing would mean a 2-3 hour dungeon as we wouldn't be able to handle larger pulls, instead of a 20-30 minute one.

I will typically whisper the healer and say I am switching to my dps build with a taunt, which is mostly what I solo vma with, and not really touch my CP. I'll still be able to tank most of the dungeon while doing 50-60% of the group's dps, and please bear in mind I'm not a dps person- I'm fairly mediocre.

I've seen multiple times that people at the end of a dungeon say "bad dps" then insta leave, implying they carried the dungeon, which may be true but shouldn't be something that people tell other players. If you had a templar in group who had bad dps and you notice them spamming beam with a 2h sword and heavy armor on then maybe you should recommend them a craftable set or ask what their rotation is before leaving instead of saying they're bad dps. Just a thought.

Auldwulfe · September 2022

I have read so many of these posts ... and most of the players are saying the same exact thing. Make consistent timers. It's not a hard concept, and appears to be the best solution to the issue.

So, yeah... I am in my mid-50's, and I have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena was released. No, that does NOT make me any sort of "expert"... but I am going to be honest, I tend to overland play, and all the rotations, and bar swapping is old. I guess I do ok at weaving, as my ultimate refills pretty quickly. I tend to mix light attack and one of my other attack skills.... the animation is "interesting" with that, sometimes, but it works. For a dual wield, that is flurry and light..... I may throw down an AOE on a bigger boss, but most don't last long enough to bother... I can take down a delve boss in a few seconds, and that is good enough for me.

I work with enough stress on my job that I do NOT need a second job when I get home... I want to wander around in a world I love, not sit and stress over timing and rotations, and making sure I have the exact right build that someone else decided was better than mine.... you may make a higher number, but I assure you, mine gives me more fun... guess what I am going for?

They need to understand that the majority of average players are like me.... bar swapping is a pain in the tail. Trying to keep track of all those timers... no, I don't need to, and I am not going to. And for the people that keep saying that I need to use an addon...... when I need a third party software addition to play a game, either there is something wrong, or the game is broken, and needs to be fixed.

Consistent timers, and DOTs and AOE's that make sense .... stop trying to turn all the characters into clones with only the color of their animation and outfit as the thing that defines them... one class SHOULD be different than another... it's part of why we choose which we want to play......

Focus on returning every class to it's roots... we don't need nuclear explosion effects for every skill...... focus on returning the racial values... an Orc should not be a better magic user than a Breton.....
And focus on consistency in timers, and flow.... and the game will improve, and the gap will minimize .... it is that simple.

Auldwulfe

wolfie1.0. · September 2022

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Because they didn't adapt people

It's more that ZOS didn't make it easy to adapt to the changes.

Players will adapt. Some may take some time though, and some will adapt by changing content, and others will quit...

Androrix · September 2022

Oooh. I liked your post @Auldwulfe !

Ummm...p.s. is this thread different from the thread with almost the same name on page 2 of the forum?

Agenericname · September 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

The bolded statement I hold ZOS partially responsible for.

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

That statement, especially the "miles behind" statement puts a lot of emphasis on weaving light attacks, but not much on everything else, which also matter, quite a bit. Tempo, rotation, gear, abilities, etc. Collectively they matter more. I don't feel that drastic gap rest solely on the shoulders of weaving light attacks.

But, here we are

Auldwulfe · September 2022

Androrix wrote: »

Oooh. I liked your post @Auldwulfe !

Ummm...p.s. is this thread different from the thread with almost the same name on page 2 of the forum?

I appreciate that -- not sure on the other thread .... but I wanted to add some weight to the idea that consistency is more important for most players, than say flash.

Auldwulfe

MidniteOwl1913 · September 2022

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Because they didn't adapt people

It's more that ZOS didn't make it easy to adapt to the changes.

Players will adapt. Some may take some time though, and some will adapt by changing content, and others will quit...

But they haven't stopped nerfing. Although tiny compared to U35 the nerf to Vigor in U36 is a bad sign that they are not done yet. After U35 healing is in a really bad place, why they felt the need to make it worse is beyond me.

StarOfElyon · September 2022

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

So i felt the skill gap became much bigger then before, and now i'm starting to refuse helping randoms. I liked to do it before i can do HM solo i got an amazing proc group. But when i play with randoms i just let them die because i rather have my companion in the group. My companion can do more damge or better tanking so i just finish dungeons on my own even when the randoms died.
So now i just can't carry randoms anymore i just play with them for the pledge or the random dungeon thing but they are just decoration.

Why is the skill gap bigger?
Their damage sucks they die very fast. And i just put heals on for them and that's not even enough.
I don't understand i used to like carrying randoms to achievements.

I don't know but I can say with absolute certainty that no one saw this coming and/or warned us.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

So i felt the skill gap became much bigger then before, and now i'm starting to refuse helping randoms. I liked to do it before i can do HM solo i got an amazing proc group. But when i play with randoms i just let them die because i rather have my companion in the group. My companion can do more damge or better tanking so i just finish dungeons on my own even when the randoms died.
So now i just can't carry randoms anymore i just play with them for the pledge or the random dungeon thing but they are just decoration.

Why is the skill gap bigger?
Their damage sucks they die very fast. And i just put heals on for them and that's not even enough.
I don't understand i used to like carrying randoms to achievements.

I don't know but I can say with absolute certainty that no one saw this coming and/or warned us.

@StarOfElyon
Sorry, but that part simply isn't true. The post by Code and the video by skinny cheeks both were during the PTS. I have been ranting on these forums about the skill gap and consistent skill duration for over a year. I understand that not everyone uses or gives 2 cents about the PTS, but ZOS was warned that their approach to lower the skill gap would have the complete opposite effect, and that is EXACTLY what happened.

Edit: If that was sarcasm, my bad.

boi_anachronism_ · September 2022

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

So i felt the skill gap became much bigger then before, and now i'm starting to refuse helping randoms. I liked to do it before i can do HM solo i got an amazing proc group. But when i play with randoms i just let them die because i rather have my companion in the group. My companion can do more damge or better tanking so i just finish dungeons on my own even when the randoms died.
So now i just can't carry randoms anymore i just play with them for the pledge or the random dungeon thing but they are just decoration.

Why is the skill gap bigger?
Their damage sucks they die very fast. And i just put heals on for them and that's not even enough.
I don't understand i used to like carrying randoms to achievements.

I don't know but I can say with absolute certainty that no one saw this coming and/or warned us.

@StarOfElyon
Sorry, but that part simply isn't true. The post by Code and the video by skinny cheeks both were during the PTS. I have been ranting on these forums about the skill gap and consistent skill duration for over a year. I understand that not everyone uses or gives 2 cents about the PTS, but ZOS was warned that their approach to lower the skill gap would have the complete opposite effect, and that is EXACTLY what happened.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm 😂

me_ming · September 2022

Agenericname wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

The bolded statement I hold ZOS partially responsible for.

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

That statement, especially the "miles behind" statement puts a lot of emphasis on weaving light attacks, but not much on everything else, which also matter, quite a bit. Tempo, rotation, gear, abilities, etc. Collectively they matter more. I don't feel that drastic gap rest solely on the shoulders of weaving light attacks.

But, here we are

Weaving IS part of your rotation. lol. Some gear even encourage you to weave your light attacks. Also weaving has ALWAYS been a part of whether someone is more effective and efficient in ESO's combat. You DO need to learn how to weave if you want to put it more damage, it has been the case since day one. what did you think end game players didn't weave before?

Also for OP, real people who carry, just carry. They don't complain if their party dies or if they don't know their rotations. I really don't like people who act as if they are better than others. Real end game players just carry if they do randoms. They don't complain, they don't berate people and tell them that their companions are better than them.

I'm a returning player. I've been reading so many post from players here saying that their damage output is lower now. You must be new to the game. You think Templars were nerfed now? lol. Templars have been nerfed MANY MANY times before. Remember when Repentance was still a thing? Remember when Breathe of Life could heal through walls and three people at the same time? Remember when Jesus Beam would actually execute at 50%? You think Sweeps/Jabs is the only identity Templars have? No. It's the only left that stands out now. But before Sweeps/Jabs was but one of the many identifying skills Templars have.

I'm not saying ZOS shouldn't be called out for what they are doing to the game. One of the reasons why I stopped playing the game in the past is because I got burned out, but I never came in here and cried that I couldn't carry random players now because they nerfed my class.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

Here is another build post worth watching (check out the static vs dynamic rotation and parse tip sections). Not because I expect most of us ever hope to hit 130k+ on a sorc, but it is excellent insight about what goes into the "meta" rotation on live.

If you had come to me say 2-4 years ago and said, hey Bear, I want to get into end game. My response would be, role a sorc. They have a relatively straightforward rotation. You can play a simple static rotation for very solid damage, and if you want to really lean into it, its a great class to work on dynamic rotations as well.

On Live, Sorcs now have 4 different weave timers, by that I mean, 4 different types of skills, where to light attack weave, the timing is slightly different:

1. Regular Skill Timing
2. Overload timing,
3. Hardcast frag timing (.8 second spammable, why ZOS, why?)
4. Stampede weave.

Sorc also has a skill on both bars that making swapping difficult. You cant swap off a hard cast frags without losing pace, you cant swap off stamped without moving your character (how is that even a thing?).

Sorc has a .8 second spammable. A 6 second duration skill that is extremely penalizing to either recast early or late. A 15 second back bar skill they need to keep up. Likely a 10 second back bar gear set proc they need to keep up with Pillar (ironically no 10 second back bar skills). Three 20 second skills that need to be kept up, another that can be above 50% health. A janky ultimate they need to manage during their opening. A proc skill that needs managed. And finally, an execute with the lowest health threshold in the game. I have nothing but respect for people like Luca Cash that can juggle all this on the fly, but if you want to know why there is a skill gap, look no further. A few 20 second DOTs aint moving the needles, ZOS, neither is capping LA damage.

My best parse so far, not that I have tried too much is 120k. That is 88% of the meta. Historically, I am at about 95% on most classes from a youtube parse, and because sorc has been my main more than any other, usually I am at about 97% on sorc. This patch, the difference between myself, someone that is pretty darn competent at DPS rotations, has almost tripled on a percent basis, from the best of the best. The gap between them and the floor has grown by god knows how much, and this is one of the easy classes to play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Cx1072d_U

Agenericname · September 2022

me_ming wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

The bolded statement I hold ZOS partially responsible for.

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

That statement, especially the "miles behind" statement puts a lot of emphasis on weaving light attacks, but not much on everything else, which also matter, quite a bit. Tempo, rotation, gear, abilities, etc. Collectively they matter more. I don't feel that drastic gap rest solely on the shoulders of weaving light attacks.

But, here we are

Weaving IS part of your rotation. lol. Some gear even encourage you to weave your light attacks. Also weaving has ALWAYS been a part of whether someone is more effective and efficient in ESO's combat. You DO need to learn how to weave if you want to put it more damage, it has been the case since day one. what did you think end game players didn't weave before?

Also for OP, real people who carry, just carry. They don't complain if their party dies or if they don't know their rotations. I really don't like people who act as if they are better than others. Real end game players just carry if they do randoms. They don't complain, they don't berate people and tell them that their companions are better than them.

I'm a returning player. I've been reading so many post from players here saying that their damage output is lower now. You must be new to the game. You think Templars were nerfed now? lol. Templars have been nerfed MANY MANY times before. Remember when Repentance was still a thing? Remember when Breathe of Life could heal through walls and three people at the same time? Remember when Jesus Beam would actually execute at 50%? You think Sweeps/Jabs is the only identity Templars have? No. It's the only left that stands out now. But before Sweeps/Jabs was but one of the many identifying skills Templars have.

I'm not saying ZOS shouldn't be called out for what they are doing to the game. One of the reasons why I stopped playing the game in the past is because I got burned out, but I never came in here and cried that I couldn't carry random players now because they nerfed my class.

Weaving is a part of some people's rotations. Weaving may have been a part of since the beginning. I didn't dispute that. My exception with the statement is that it's what's creates the gap. It's a difference between a 110k parse and 120k parse. Maybe a 90k and 100k. But its not solely the difference between 40k and 80k. There are other factors causing that and the devs glossed right over them. It's not what holds people back from breaking into veteran content from normal content, which was specifically stated by the devs.

You need to weave to do more damage? Sure. Do you need it to do the majority of the content in ESO? No. Do you need it to go from normal dungeons to veteran dungeons? No.

Yes, it is used by some gear. If the devs wanted to reduce the gap, they could have reduced the effectiveness of that gear and not nerfed anyone.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

Agenericname wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

The bolded statement I hold ZOS partially responsible for.

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

That statement, especially the "miles behind" statement puts a lot of emphasis on weaving light attacks, but not much on everything else, which also matter, quite a bit. Tempo, rotation, gear, abilities, etc. Collectively they matter more. I don't feel that drastic gap rest solely on the shoulders of weaving light attacks.

But, here we are

@Agenericname

Totally, but I don't agree with their assessment of the impact of weaving. Hence my very first statment in this thread,

"Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink."

Rewind 3-4 patches, weaving was 10-15% of a DPS boost at the extreme end. Furthermore, it was a sliding scale with a cap, meaning the better you got at it, the more it added up to a reasonable maximum, which I think is actually a good thing. Between me and someone like Luca, Liko or Charles, weaving had nothing to do with the skill gap. Pace of rotation was the driving difference combined with managing a dynamic rotation.

It was very possible back then to break 100k without weaving. Not sure that still holds true, but admittedly its been 7-8 months since I tried. If they were right, capping la damage would have had a measurable impact on the skill gap. They did cap LA damage, and the skill gap got bigger. It is a piece of the pie, but it aint a big one.

Pace of rotation is much more difficult when you have inconsistent weave timers and specific skills that cause issues with bar swaps.

Managing a dynamic rotation would be much easier if skill timers were consistent multiples of each other. Increasing DOT duration actually made this part harder.

Agenericname · September 2022

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
I was hoping, much like the last time they made major changes to DOTs, that this was going to be just as short-lived as the previous. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be the case. I agree whole heartedly, making them consistent would have helped.

I believe that 100k no LA parse that got posted here was U34, maybe U33. If you considered a 130k more or less the top, then a 100K parse was 77% of that. One could make the argument that wasn't enough, or maybe that it was too much. I don't think that a no-LA parse would still be 77% of the top anymore though. It's a different trial dummy now anyway, so a good estimate is as close as we could get. Granted, in order to do that the pacing would need to be pretty tight, but that's the only way to get apples to apples.

I agree, it wasn't that big of a slice of the pie, but I think it got a little bigger this patch by virtue of the pie getting smaller.

BlueRaven · September 2022

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I have read so many of these posts ... and most of the players are saying the same exact thing. Make consistent timers. It's not a hard concept, and appears to be the best solution to the issue.

So, yeah... I am in my mid-50's, and I have been playing Elder Scrolls since Arena was released. No, that does NOT make me any sort of "expert"... but I am going to be honest, I tend to overland play, and all the rotations, and bar swapping is old. I guess I do ok at weaving, as my ultimate refills pretty quickly. I tend to mix light attack and one of my other attack skills.... the animation is "interesting" with that, sometimes, but it works. For a dual wield, that is flurry and light..... I may throw down an AOE on a bigger boss, but most don't last long enough to bother... I can take down a delve boss in a few seconds, and that is good enough for me.

I work with enough stress on my job that I do NOT need a second job when I get home... I want to wander around in a world I love, not sit and stress over timing and rotations, and making sure I have the exact right build that someone else decided was better than mine.... you may make a higher number, but I assure you, mine gives me more fun... guess what I am going for?

They need to understand that the majority of average players are like me.... bar swapping is a pain in the tail. Trying to keep track of all those timers... no, I don't need to, and I am not going to. And for the people that keep saying that I need to use an addon...... when I need a third party software addition to play a game, either there is something wrong, or the game is broken, and needs to be fixed.

Consistent timers, and DOTs and AOE's that make sense .... stop trying to turn all the characters into clones with only the color of their animation and outfit as the thing that defines them... one class SHOULD be different than another... it's part of why we choose which we want to play......

Focus on returning every class to it's roots... we don't need nuclear explosion effects for every skill...... focus on returning the racial values... an Orc should not be a better magic user than a Breton.....
And focus on consistency in timers, and flow.... and the game will improve, and the gap will minimize .... it is that simple.

Auldwulfe

Awesome post! You and I are a lot alike!

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

Agenericname wrote: »

@Oreyn_Bearclaw
I was hoping, much like the last time they made major changes to DOTs, that this was going to be just as short-lived as the previous. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be the case. I agree whole heartedly, making them consistent would have helped.

I believe that 100k no LA parse that got posted here was U34, maybe U33. If you considered a 130k more or less the top, then a 100K parse was 77% of that. One could make the argument that wasn't enough, or maybe that it was too much. I don't think that a no-LA parse would still be 77% of the top anymore though. It's a different trial dummy now anyway, so a good estimate is as close as we could get. Granted, in order to do that the pacing would need to be pretty tight, but that's the only way to get apples to apples.

I agree, it wasn't that big of a slice of the pie, but I think it got a little bigger this patch by virtue of the pie getting smaller.

@Agenericname
Its also hard to really know because it is a bit of an apples and oranges type scenario. Take a 130k parse on youtube. That parse is probably more like 122-125 on average, and they fish for the one where everything goes right. Nobody capable of doing that is going to bother with trying it without LAs.

In the 136k Parse from luca, we can make some reasonable inferences. The Front bar LA damage is 112 hits for 9687 DPS. We dont have the 2H back bar hits (we know its less than 4200 as its the lowest that we can see), but not that hard to extrapolate. He had 142 skills, 15 of which were overload LAs. That leaves really only 15 back bar attacks. That's roughly 11k DPS from basic light attacks. He had 4200 from overload, kind of their own animal and unique to sorc, but even if you just call them straight light attacks, you are talking 15k or so DPS from a 136k parse. And because of overload inflating it, on most classes it would be less

Now the damage from LA is not the entire story, but its most of it. The reason that parse is mindblowing is the 0.952 pace, the perfect uptime on pillar and every other DOT, and a healthy RNG on the crit. He missed 5 LAs. Even if he missed 25, the DPS would still be outstanding. He does need LAs to proc Whorl, but again, there are other options that dont need LAs for similar DPS.

High DPS comes down to pace and and managing a dynamic rotation. Both of which are harder now than they have ever been. I have been trying to parse on that exact setup. My pace is the worst its ever been, and I would kill to only miss 5 LAs. Previous builds, I would be upset if I missed more than 2, and most youtube parses would have 0.

Kalle_Demos · September 2022

Once again Zos accomplishes the exact opposite of their stated goals. They have to be trolling us at this point. They cannot be this [REDACTED].

Oreyn_Bearclaw · September 2022

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

So i felt the skill gap became much bigger then before, and now i'm starting to refuse helping randoms. I liked to do it before i can do HM solo i got an amazing proc group. But when i play with randoms i just let them die because i rather have my companion in the group. My companion can do more damge or better tanking so i just finish dungeons on my own even when the randoms died.
So now i just can't carry randoms anymore i just play with them for the pledge or the random dungeon thing but they are just decoration.

Why is the skill gap bigger?
Their damage sucks they die very fast. And i just put heals on for them and that's not even enough.
I don't understand i used to like carrying randoms to achievements.

I don't know but I can say with absolute certainty that no one saw this coming and/or warned us.

@StarOfElyon
Sorry, but that part simply isn't true. The post by Code and the video by skinny cheeks both were during the PTS. I have been ranting on these forums about the skill gap and consistent skill duration for over a year. I understand that not everyone uses or gives 2 cents about the PTS, but ZOS was warned that their approach to lower the skill gap would have the complete opposite effect, and that is EXACTLY what happened.

Pretty sure that was sarcasm 😂

Haha, re-reading it, yeah, you are probably right. Sometimes its hard with text, and even harder when you have rage building inside of you.