Why is the skill gap bigger?

VictorDragonslayer

I agree with @Oreyn_Bearclaw, dynamic rotation with different DoT timers makes some classes (I look at you, necromancer) exceptionally hard to play. 1 second GCD means that you have to know relative power of each DoT and have a very good reaction in order to reapply them in correct order. LAs won't make or break one's DPS, incorrect rotation will. ZOS vaguely mention LA weaving, but they say nothing about making a good rotation. People have to learn about backbar enchantment proc, slotting good skills and sustaining your build from content makers / friends / guildmates. Yes, research and socialisation should affect one's git gud process, but, IMHO, ESO is rather extreme here.

p00tx

There's no one right answer to why the top can do so much more damage than the floor. Light attack weaving is certainly a factor. It's something that takes a fair amount of practice to become proficient with, unless you're one of those wunderkind gamers, which most of us aren't. Gear is another factor, and it's a BIG one. Last patch, you could bring in a fun, experimental build and do decent damage with it. You could get trifectas on a goofy Argonian DK non meta build that just makes you happy to play. I've seen people do it. Healers could cross over roles and choosing to solo heal was a fun and challenging option in trials while using more advanced strats. Now, you either run your fun fantasy build and resign yourself to doing no damage, or you engage with the meta 100% and you start to see your damage rise exponentially. You run two healers now or you find yourself struggling in the newer content, unless you have one of those rare god-tanks and/or the even rarer dps who doesn't stand in easily avoidable damage. There are no other options other than these now.

On top of that, as some others have already mentioned, skill timers are just weird now. I can actually appreciate Zos's attempt to standardize the HoT/DoT timers, and had they done it more thoroughly and carefully, it would have actually been a fantastic change. It was a great idea, but poor execution. Unless you have lots of hours logged learning how to dynamically keep up your HoTs/DoTs, you're going to struggle HARD this patch. It's just not possible to run a successful static rotation right now, and that is unfortunately what the majority of players just venturing into endgame content are most comfortable with. Now they have to focus dynamic uptimes while learning brand new mechanics that they have to be doubly vigilant for because healers can no longer provide enough heals to compensate for missteps.

Did they succeed in making the game more difficult for those us us at the top? Somewhat- dps are doing just fine and have adapted. Healing is butts now though and not nearly as fun as it used to be. It's just feels like a stressful job and I'd rather get paid while feeling that way, thanks anyway. So yeah, they succeeded in ruining the game for some of us, so good job I guess? For the vast majority of the game though, they made it exponentially worse, which was NOT what they claimed their aim was when they released that patch. Sure, go ahead and kick end-game healers in the hoo-hah. We'll either go bring our money to a different game, or stick around and power through it until the next over-buff patch comes out, and either way, it's not going to matter to most players or anyone at Zos hq. But for the rest of the community? Don't leave it like this. It's not good, at all. It needs work and some CAREFUL tuning. I really wish I could make the word "careful" much larger, just to stress that part...

Oreyn_Bearclaw

p00tx wrote: »

There's no one right answer to why the top can do so much more damage than the floor. Light attack weaving is certainly a factor. It's something that takes a fair amount of practice to become proficient with, unless you're one of those wunderkind gamers, which most of us aren't. Gear is another factor, and it's a BIG one. Last patch, you could bring in a fun, experimental build and do decent damage with it. You could get trifectas on a goofy Argonian DK non meta build that just makes you happy to play. I've seen people do it. Healers could cross over roles and choosing to solo heal was a fun and challenging option in trials while using more advanced strats. Now, you either run your fun fantasy build and resign yourself to doing no damage, or you engage with the meta 100% and you start to see your damage rise exponentially. You run two healers now or you find yourself struggling in the newer content, unless you have one of those rare god-tanks and/or the even rarer dps who doesn't stand in easily avoidable damage. There are no other options other than these now.

On top of that, as some others have already mentioned, skill timers are just weird now. I can actually appreciate Zos's attempt to standardize the HoT/DoT timers, and had they done it more thoroughly and carefully, it would have actually been a fantastic change. It was a great idea, but poor execution. Unless you have lots of hours logged learning how to dynamically keep up your HoTs/DoTs, you're going to struggle HARD this patch. It's just not possible to run a successful static rotation right now, and that is unfortunately what the majority of players just venturing into endgame content are most comfortable with. Now they have to focus dynamic uptimes while learning brand new mechanics that they have to be doubly vigilant for because healers can no longer provide enough heals to compensate for missteps.

Did they succeed in making the game more difficult for those us us at the top? Somewhat- dps are doing just fine and have adapted. Healing is butts now though and not nearly as fun as it used to be. It's just feels like a stressful job and I'd rather get paid while feeling that way, thanks anyway. So yeah, they succeeded in ruining the game for some of us, so good job I guess? For the vast majority of the game though, they made it exponentially worse, which was NOT what they claimed their aim was when they released that patch. Sure, go ahead and kick end-game healers in the hoo-hah. We'll either go bring our money to a different game, or stick around and power through it until the next over-buff patch comes out, and either way, it's not going to matter to most players or anyone at Zos hq. But for the rest of the community? Don't leave it like this. It's not good, at all. It needs work and some CAREFUL tuning. I really wish I could make the word "careful" much larger, just to stress that part...

I think this is overstated as well. If by gear, you mean support gear on your tanks and healers for buffs, than yeah, gear plays a massive part. If by gear you mean what your DPS are wearing, sorry, just not the case. Of course it moves the needle, but take any really competitive end game player, put them in Orders Wrath and Mothers Sorrow, and they will still run circles around most of us.

I would probably put the order something like this in terms of what impacts damage:

1. Managing a Dynamic Rotation (1st place by a freaking mile), this is where timers come into play.
2. Group support. Gear matters here, but not for the DPS.
3. Weaving, but there is some room between second and third place.
4. Gear worn by DPS, in terms of Meta vs Easy to acquire substitutes. Now of course, I am not comparing gold perfected Trial gear to white mismatched gear, I am comparing gold gear that is hard to get vs gold gear that is easy to get. If we plan to balance the game around the naked guy in Deshaan, then just unplug the servers and be done. LOL

boi_anachronism_

Agenericname wrote: »

me_ming wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Because ZOS has a very poor handle on how their game works from the perspective of players at various skill levels, and as a result they have a very poor handle on what actually causes the skill gap they keep trying to shrink.

If you asked most people, they would say something about weaving. I wouldn't be honest if I said it plays no part, but it doesn't play nearly as large as most people think. For the sake of argument, lets say its all weaving (its not), what could they do? Well, on its face, they could lower LA damage, which they did. Did the gap close? Nope.

The bolded statement I hold ZOS partially responsible for.

Currently, to be truly effective in ESO’s combat, you need to learn to manipulate something that is known as “weaving,” which refers to the act of squeezing multiple actions into the global cooldown window. Doing so drastically increases your agency and output, and it is a staple of the game that we’ve come to embrace, as it helps our combat feel different and exciting to participate in once you learn the ins and outs. However, the impact of weaving leads to a massive gap in performance where players who cannot interact with it as effectively are left miles behind those who can.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

That statement, especially the "miles behind" statement puts a lot of emphasis on weaving light attacks, but not much on everything else, which also matter, quite a bit. Tempo, rotation, gear, abilities, etc. Collectively they matter more. I don't feel that drastic gap rest solely on the shoulders of weaving light attacks.

But, here we are

Weaving IS part of your rotation. lol. Some gear even encourage you to weave your light attacks. Also weaving has ALWAYS been a part of whether someone is more effective and efficient in ESO's combat. You DO need to learn how to weave if you want to put it more damage, it has been the case since day one. what did you think end game players didn't weave before?

Also for OP, real people who carry, just carry. They don't complain if their party dies or if they don't know their rotations. I really don't like people who act as if they are better than others. Real end game players just carry if they do randoms. They don't complain, they don't berate people and tell them that their companions are better than them.

I'm a returning player. I've been reading so many post from players here saying that their damage output is lower now. You must be new to the game. You think Templars were nerfed now? lol. Templars have been nerfed MANY MANY times before. Remember when Repentance was still a thing? Remember when Breathe of Life could heal through walls and three people at the same time? Remember when Jesus Beam would actually execute at 50%? You think Sweeps/Jabs is the only identity Templars have? No. It's the only left that stands out now. But before Sweeps/Jabs was but one of the many identifying skills Templars have.

I'm not saying ZOS shouldn't be called out for what they are doing to the game. One of the reasons why I stopped playing the game in the past is because I got burned out, but I never came in here and cried that I couldn't carry random players now because they nerfed my class.

Weaving is a part of some people's rotations. Weaving may have been a part of since the beginning. I didn't dispute that. My exception with the statement is that it's what's creates the gap. It's a difference between a 110k parse and 120k parse. Maybe a 90k and 100k. But its not solely the difference between 40k and 80k. There are other factors causing that and the devs glossed right over them. It's not what holds people back from breaking into veteran content from normal content, which was specifically stated by the devs.

You need to weave to do more damage? Sure. Do you need it to do the majority of the content in ESO? No. Do you need it to go from normal dungeons to veteran dungeons? No.

Yes, it is used by some gear. If the devs wanted to reduce the gap, they could have reduced the effectiveness of that gear and not nerfed anyone.

That very much depends. A lot of the sets you would wear to hit those high numbers require good weaving to proc and for classes like night blade it is even more noticeable because of bow proc. If you don't weave well you stand to lose a ton of damage. It's legitimately the difference between a 50k parse and a 100k parse because it is the hardest hitting skill by a mile up until execute where impale replaces it. To hit that 100k you really have to have that bow ready every 5 casts/LA. Again that's not all classes but some are heavily dependant on it.

dsalter

my 2cent on this as a casual player who takes multiple breaks while also having a laid back build due to RSI issues.

this update crippled my ability to play in veteran dungeons because i have to faff around more and work harder to achieve the exact same output i was able to do with my previous build.
never has an update made me feel more unwelcome than this one, and i only suffer minor RSI in my right hand god knows how people with sever cases or arthritis are coping.
i'v pretty much switched all my characters to tank or healer because playing DPS in the current patch demands i dedicate a full build to being able to heavy attack my way to victory with floor aoe+heavy lightning which will perform far weaker than a normal build or tough through legitimate pain pressing all the buttons on both bars to achieve an acceptable damage rate.

screw that i'll just go the lazy route and be a healing/tank slave... so much for "play how you want"

the worst part is this whole shift was created by the stupid "PvP" section 1 shotting with heavy attacks, instead of altering the light and heavy damage in PvP using battle spirit they shuffled the entire game to cater to one very níche area of the game with a very níche broken build.
curing a headache with a shotgun approach.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

dsalter wrote: »

my 2cent on this as a casual player who takes multiple breaks while also having a laid back build due to RSI issues.

this update crippled my ability to play in veteran dungeons because i have to faff around more and work harder to achieve the exact same output i was able to do with my previous build.
never has an update made me feel more unwelcome than this one, and i only suffer minor RSI in my right hand god knows how people with sever cases or arthritis are coping.
i'v pretty much switched all my characters to tank or healer because playing DPS in the current patch demands i dedicate a full build to being able to heavy attack my way to victory with floor aoe+heavy lightning which will perform far weaker than a normal build or tough through legitimate pain pressing all the buttons on both bars to achieve an acceptable damage rate.

screw that i'll just go the lazy route and be a healing/tank slave... so much for "play how you want"

the worst part is this whole shift was created by the stupid "PvP" section 1 shotting with heavy attacks, instead of altering the light and heavy damage in PvP using battle spirit they shuffled the entire game to cater to one very níche area of the game with a very níche broken build.
curing a headache with a shotgun approach.

Thats a red herring. Dont turn this into a PVP vs PVE issue, because it is NOT. They removed empower from PVP which solved the heavy attack one shot issue. AOE and single target DOTs were not an issue in PVP, and those had the biggest changes made to them. These changes were largely targeted at PVE.

Auldwulfe

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

my 2cent on this as a casual player who takes multiple breaks while also having a laid back build due to RSI issues.

this update crippled my ability to play in veteran dungeons because i have to faff around more and work harder to achieve the exact same output i was able to do with my previous build.
never has an update made me feel more unwelcome than this one, and i only suffer minor RSI in my right hand god knows how people with sever cases or arthritis are coping.
i'v pretty much switched all my characters to tank or healer because playing DPS in the current patch demands i dedicate a full build to being able to heavy attack my way to victory with floor aoe+heavy lightning which will perform far weaker than a normal build or tough through legitimate pain pressing all the buttons on both bars to achieve an acceptable damage rate.

screw that i'll just go the lazy route and be a healing/tank slave... so much for "play how you want"

the worst part is this whole shift was created by the stupid "PvP" section 1 shotting with heavy attacks, instead of altering the light and heavy damage in PvP using battle spirit they shuffled the entire game to cater to one very níche area of the game with a very níche broken build.
curing a headache with a shotgun approach.

Thats a red herring. Dont turn this into a PVP vs PVE issue, because it is NOT. They removed empower from PVP which solved the heavy attack one shot issue. AOE and single target DOTs were not an issue in PVP, and those had the biggest changes made to them. These changes were largely targeted at PVE.

I have to agree, and this is as someone who is not a huge fan of PvP -- do I go to Cyrodiil, yes.... I wanted Caltrops, and I scouted my way to it with one guy so far.... others are close.
No, this is definitely NOT a PvP vs PvE issue...... and I wonder, sometimes, at why people keep trying to derail conversations with that idea.

The issue is consistency .... the skills have all been spreadsheeted to death to make every little factor even... the goal was to make it so that there were not "meta" skills, and skills that were NEVER used.... and therefore, open "play how you want", because ANY skill would now be viable.
I see where they were trying to go, but they overly heavy handed the issue..... to use a metaphor, they were an island nation that wanted to increase tourism, so they leveled the entire island, paved it, and surrounded it with a uniformly painted wall so that every view is exactly the same.... any tourist will have exactly the same view, and situation..... and now, no one wants to come and tour their prison parking lot......

Warden shalks got the really wierd nerf, because they wanted it to have exact same damage, over the exact same time as another skill. However, they also were trying to avoid all the characters turning into clones, and it not mattering what skill you used, as the only difference would be color animation.... so they gave Shalks this really off time delay .... and it is infuriating the community, because it doesn't match any other timer.

They are trying to do TOO much at the same time... Consistency in skills and timers is a good thing. Having it so that there are no "better" skills than others is also a good thing..... but the way to do it would have been to add additional morphs to skills, and maybe, allow more than one morph to be taken with skill points, you can limit it to only one version being effective at one time, and as you STILL have to slot the skill to use it, it can be worked with, without a huge stacking issue. Let the number of slots, and the number of active skills in a set be the limiting factor.... Let a staff wielder have both versions of Wall of elements ... they have to choose which they use, and if you cast one, the other ends ... the only exploit would be that the one with an explosion will explode, but that already happens when you spam cast it, by itself .... but, in an situation where you are fighting a single target, use the smaller one with the boom.... if a bunch of small critters tries to swarm you, hit the other one.

In addition, don't try to balance EVERYTHING on a number -- some skills WILL do a small amount more damage than others..... but, if that lower skill gives you a minor passive, people will take it, even if only 5 more minutes on a food, etc ....
Again, I'll use a Warden skill - and only because I was just playing one of mine, so it is fresh -- Arctic winds - base skill surrounds you with cold wind, and heals you - first morph includes allies, second does some damage -- add a third, that does a damage shield, but much reduced healing... it buys you time to use another skill, whether healing, OR setting for an AOE centered on yourself ....... Yes, it is less healing, and yes, it does not damage, but it WOULD give you time, and sometimes that is better than the other two.


I have other ideas for spells, and effects that would both work in the game, be effective, and that we ALREADY have animations for, as I have seen other things do it......

But, first, PLEASE give us the consistency in timers, and play, because right now, the skill gap is WAY HARDER for anyone other than the top - I have friends quitting because they cannot do the whole rotations and bar switching constantly, due to arthritis, age, or other reasons.

Auldwulfe

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

my 2cent on this as a casual player who takes multiple breaks while also having a laid back build due to RSI issues.

this update crippled my ability to play in veteran dungeons because i have to faff around more and work harder to achieve the exact same output i was able to do with my previous build.
never has an update made me feel more unwelcome than this one, and i only suffer minor RSI in my right hand god knows how people with sever cases or arthritis are coping.
i'v pretty much switched all my characters to tank or healer because playing DPS in the current patch demands i dedicate a full build to being able to heavy attack my way to victory with floor aoe+heavy lightning which will perform far weaker than a normal build or tough through legitimate pain pressing all the buttons on both bars to achieve an acceptable damage rate.

screw that i'll just go the lazy route and be a healing/tank slave... so much for "play how you want"

the worst part is this whole shift was created by the stupid "PvP" section 1 shotting with heavy attacks, instead of altering the light and heavy damage in PvP using battle spirit they shuffled the entire game to cater to one very níche area of the game with a very níche broken build.
curing a headache with a shotgun approach.

Thats a red herring. Dont turn this into a PVP vs PVE issue, because it is NOT. They removed empower from PVP which solved the heavy attack one shot issue. AOE and single target DOTs were not an issue in PVP, and those had the biggest changes made to them. These changes were largely targeted at PVE.

I have to agree, and this is as someone who is not a huge fan of PvP -- do I go to Cyrodiil, yes.... I wanted Caltrops, and I scouted my way to it with one guy so far.... others are close.
No, this is definitely NOT a PvP vs PvE issue...... and I wonder, sometimes, at why people keep trying to derail conversations with that idea.

The issue is consistency .... the skills have all been spreadsheeted to death to make every little factor even... the goal was to make it so that there were not "meta" skills, and skills that were NEVER used.... and therefore, open "play how you want", because ANY skill would now be viable.
I see where they were trying to go, but they overly heavy handed the issue..... to use a metaphor, they were an island nation that wanted to increase tourism, so they leveled the entire island, paved it, and surrounded it with a uniformly painted wall so that every view is exactly the same.... any tourist will have exactly the same view, and situation..... and now, no one wants to come and tour their prison parking lot......

Warden shalks got the really wierd nerf, because they wanted it to have exact same damage, over the exact same time as another skill. However, they also were trying to avoid all the characters turning into clones, and it not mattering what skill you used, as the only difference would be color animation.... so they gave Shalks this really off time delay .... and it is infuriating the community, because it doesn't match any other timer.

They are trying to do TOO much at the same time... Consistency in skills and timers is a good thing. Having it so that there are no "better" skills than others is also a good thing..... but the way to do it would have been to add additional morphs to skills, and maybe, allow more than one morph to be taken with skill points, you can limit it to only one version being effective at one time, and as you STILL have to slot the skill to use it, it can be worked with, without a huge stacking issue. Let the number of slots, and the number of active skills in a set be the limiting factor.... Let a staff wielder have both versions of Wall of elements ... they have to choose which they use, and if you cast one, the other ends ... the only exploit would be that the one with an explosion will explode, but that already happens when you spam cast it, by itself .... but, in an situation where you are fighting a single target, use the smaller one with the boom.... if a bunch of small critters tries to swarm you, hit the other one.

In addition, don't try to balance EVERYTHING on a number -- some skills WILL do a small amount more damage than others..... but, if that lower skill gives you a minor passive, people will take it, even if only 5 more minutes on a food, etc ....
Again, I'll use a Warden skill - and only because I was just playing one of mine, so it is fresh -- Arctic winds - base skill surrounds you with cold wind, and heals you - first morph includes allies, second does some damage -- add a third, that does a damage shield, but much reduced healing... it buys you time to use another skill, whether healing, OR setting for an AOE centered on yourself ....... Yes, it is less healing, and yes, it does not damage, but it WOULD give you time, and sometimes that is better than the other two.


I have other ideas for spells, and effects that would both work in the game, be effective, and that we ALREADY have animations for, as I have seen other things do it......

But, first, PLEASE give us the consistency in timers, and play, because right now, the skill gap is WAY HARDER for anyone other than the top - I have friends quitting because they cannot do the whole rotations and bar switching constantly, due to arthritis, age, or other reasons.

Auldwulfe

Not quite sure I follow all of that, but I will admit, I liked the parking lot metaphor.

Zezin

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

There's no one right answer to why the top can do so much more damage than the floor. Light attack weaving is certainly a factor. It's something that takes a fair amount of practice to become proficient with, unless you're one of those wunderkind gamers, which most of us aren't. Gear is another factor, and it's a BIG one. Last patch, you could bring in a fun, experimental build and do decent damage with it. You could get trifectas on a goofy Argonian DK non meta build that just makes you happy to play. I've seen people do it. Healers could cross over roles and choosing to solo heal was a fun and challenging option in trials while using more advanced strats. Now, you either run your fun fantasy build and resign yourself to doing no damage, or you engage with the meta 100% and you start to see your damage rise exponentially. You run two healers now or you find yourself struggling in the newer content, unless you have one of those rare god-tanks and/or the even rarer dps who doesn't stand in easily avoidable damage. There are no other options other than these now.

On top of that, as some others have already mentioned, skill timers are just weird now. I can actually appreciate Zos's attempt to standardize the HoT/DoT timers, and had they done it more thoroughly and carefully, it would have actually been a fantastic change. It was a great idea, but poor execution. Unless you have lots of hours logged learning how to dynamically keep up your HoTs/DoTs, you're going to struggle HARD this patch. It's just not possible to run a successful static rotation right now, and that is unfortunately what the majority of players just venturing into endgame content are most comfortable with. Now they have to focus dynamic uptimes while learning brand new mechanics that they have to be doubly vigilant for because healers can no longer provide enough heals to compensate for missteps.

Did they succeed in making the game more difficult for those us us at the top? Somewhat- dps are doing just fine and have adapted. Healing is butts now though and not nearly as fun as it used to be. It's just feels like a stressful job and I'd rather get paid while feeling that way, thanks anyway. So yeah, they succeeded in ruining the game for some of us, so good job I guess? For the vast majority of the game though, they made it exponentially worse, which was NOT what they claimed their aim was when they released that patch. Sure, go ahead and kick end-game healers in the hoo-hah. We'll either go bring our money to a different game, or stick around and power through it until the next over-buff patch comes out, and either way, it's not going to matter to most players or anyone at Zos hq. But for the rest of the community? Don't leave it like this. It's not good, at all. It needs work and some CAREFUL tuning. I really wish I could make the word "careful" much larger, just to stress that part...

I think this is overstated as well. If by gear, you mean support gear on your tanks and healers for buffs, than yeah, gear plays a massive part. If by gear you mean what your DPS are wearing, sorry, just not the case. Of course it moves the needle, but take any really competitive end game player, put them in Orders Wrath and Mothers Sorrow, and they will still run circles around most of us.

I would probably put the order something like this in terms of what impacts damage:

1. Managing a Dynamic Rotation (1st place by a freaking mile), this is where timers come into play.
2. Group support. Gear matters here, but not for the DPS.
3. Weaving, but there is some room between second and third place.
4. Gear worn by DPS, in terms of Meta vs Easy to acquire substitutes. Now of course, I am not comparing gold perfected Trial gear to white mismatched gear, I am comparing gold gear that is hard to get vs gold gear that is easy to get. If we plan to balance the game around the naked guy in Deshaan, then just unplug the servers and be done. LOL

The difference between something like perf relequen and purple(with purple enchants) gear with no set bonuses is around 15% which granted is quite a lot but not as much as most people think, the difference between a set like vicious serpent and rele is around 7 to 8%(this one is pretty easy to tell as you can just deduct the damage on cmx).

Sure the worst possible could be as much as 50% less damage but I don't think anyone would purposefully hamper themselves to that point with most utility setups(stuff that adds survivability or sustain for example) being around 10% to 30% less damage than a full parse setup.

Auldwulfe

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Auldwulfe wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

my 2cent on this as a casual player who takes multiple breaks while also having a laid back build due to RSI issues.

this update crippled my ability to play in veteran dungeons because i have to faff around more and work harder to achieve the exact same output i was able to do with my previous build.
never has an update made me feel more unwelcome than this one, and i only suffer minor RSI in my right hand god knows how people with sever cases or arthritis are coping.
i'v pretty much switched all my characters to tank or healer because playing DPS in the current patch demands i dedicate a full build to being able to heavy attack my way to victory with floor aoe+heavy lightning which will perform far weaker than a normal build or tough through legitimate pain pressing all the buttons on both bars to achieve an acceptable damage rate.

screw that i'll just go the lazy route and be a healing/tank slave... so much for "play how you want"

the worst part is this whole shift was created by the stupid "PvP" section 1 shotting with heavy attacks, instead of altering the light and heavy damage in PvP using battle spirit they shuffled the entire game to cater to one very níche area of the game with a very níche broken build.
curing a headache with a shotgun approach.

Thats a red herring. Dont turn this into a PVP vs PVE issue, because it is NOT. They removed empower from PVP which solved the heavy attack one shot issue. AOE and single target DOTs were not an issue in PVP, and those had the biggest changes made to them. These changes were largely targeted at PVE.

I have to agree, and this is as someone who is not a huge fan of PvP -- do I go to Cyrodiil, yes.... I wanted Caltrops, and I scouted my way to it with one guy so far.... others are close.
No, this is definitely NOT a PvP vs PvE issue...... and I wonder, sometimes, at why people keep trying to derail conversations with that idea.

The issue is consistency .... the skills have all been spreadsheeted to death to make every little factor even... the goal was to make it so that there were not "meta" skills, and skills that were NEVER used.... and therefore, open "play how you want", because ANY skill would now be viable.
I see where they were trying to go, but they overly heavy handed the issue..... to use a metaphor, they were an island nation that wanted to increase tourism, so they leveled the entire island, paved it, and surrounded it with a uniformly painted wall so that every view is exactly the same.... any tourist will have exactly the same view, and situation..... and now, no one wants to come and tour their prison parking lot......

Warden shalks got the really wierd nerf, because they wanted it to have exact same damage, over the exact same time as another skill. However, they also were trying to avoid all the characters turning into clones, and it not mattering what skill you used, as the only difference would be color animation.... so they gave Shalks this really off time delay .... and it is infuriating the community, because it doesn't match any other timer.

They are trying to do TOO much at the same time... Consistency in skills and timers is a good thing. Having it so that there are no "better" skills than others is also a good thing..... but the way to do it would have been to add additional morphs to skills, and maybe, allow more than one morph to be taken with skill points, you can limit it to only one version being effective at one time, and as you STILL have to slot the skill to use it, it can be worked with, without a huge stacking issue. Let the number of slots, and the number of active skills in a set be the limiting factor.... Let a staff wielder have both versions of Wall of elements ... they have to choose which they use, and if you cast one, the other ends ... the only exploit would be that the one with an explosion will explode, but that already happens when you spam cast it, by itself .... but, in an situation where you are fighting a single target, use the smaller one with the boom.... if a bunch of small critters tries to swarm you, hit the other one.

In addition, don't try to balance EVERYTHING on a number -- some skills WILL do a small amount more damage than others..... but, if that lower skill gives you a minor passive, people will take it, even if only 5 more minutes on a food, etc ....
Again, I'll use a Warden skill - and only because I was just playing one of mine, so it is fresh -- Arctic winds - base skill surrounds you with cold wind, and heals you - first morph includes allies, second does some damage -- add a third, that does a damage shield, but much reduced healing... it buys you time to use another skill, whether healing, OR setting for an AOE centered on yourself ....... Yes, it is less healing, and yes, it does not damage, but it WOULD give you time, and sometimes that is better than the other two.


I have other ideas for spells, and effects that would both work in the game, be effective, and that we ALREADY have animations for, as I have seen other things do it......

But, first, PLEASE give us the consistency in timers, and play, because right now, the skill gap is WAY HARDER for anyone other than the top - I have friends quitting because they cannot do the whole rotations and bar switching constantly, due to arthritis, age, or other reasons.

Auldwulfe

Not quite sure I follow all of that, but I will admit, I liked the parking lot metaphor.

I type from work, so had to go back and edit some of the thoughts into order --- I think they really need to post a road map, and then work from that plan, first with consistency, and then with the tweaks that will ensure the classes maintain their distinctive flavor.

Right now, our timers are all over the place, and it makes any type of cohesive rotation difficult, at best, and nearly impossible, at worst. And they need to bring back distinction in the classes .... they are NOT going to perform the same - each SHOULD have a niche where they excel. And constantly nerfing is just going to create a bunch of clones that people will get bored playing.... and then ZOS will see their revenue wander off to other games.
You have already started seeing it, with Resolving Vigor. Everyone I know, in my guilds, is now slotting that one..... they nerfed all the other heals, so that has now become the default for everyone.... and the answer in U36 of "ok, fine, we'll nerf that one too" is really going to irritate the player base further.

Nerfing is not the answer, asking questions, and finding out WHY your players are doing something, is......

Auldwulfe

AvalonRanger

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

Kingsindarkness

I have tried to look at this at every angle possible....I mostly do overland content and those very few Dungeons that I can do with my wife and our companions.

And lately since the patch if I dare step in one I'm just going to get one or two shotted...so I do overland content some Dolmens, as that is the only group content I can do with my wife...and no I'm not going to join a queue once you have been stalked and have had your families life threatened that all goes out the window. in eso you have solo or four plus group content there is nothing else.


Before I was confident that U35 was just part one of making Dungeons and Normal trial accessible....but it's the opposite.

I don't know if it's they type of combat or the fact that they are trying to placate single/groups/pvp all at the same time, but none of it is currently working, and no one is really happy...

I know I know..stick to overland content.

Jaraal

The skill gap got bigger with Update 35 because the top players are able to adjust better to across the board damage nerfs, while the lower tier simply got disempowered. And then the top tier got 10% more power when ZOS decreased the health of their target content, while those who can only do normal content still have to face full strength opponents.

Certainly seems like the opposite of accessibility, doesn’t it?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Zezin wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

There's no one right answer to why the top can do so much more damage than the floor. Light attack weaving is certainly a factor. It's something that takes a fair amount of practice to become proficient with, unless you're one of those wunderkind gamers, which most of us aren't. Gear is another factor, and it's a BIG one. Last patch, you could bring in a fun, experimental build and do decent damage with it. You could get trifectas on a goofy Argonian DK non meta build that just makes you happy to play. I've seen people do it. Healers could cross over roles and choosing to solo heal was a fun and challenging option in trials while using more advanced strats. Now, you either run your fun fantasy build and resign yourself to doing no damage, or you engage with the meta 100% and you start to see your damage rise exponentially. You run two healers now or you find yourself struggling in the newer content, unless you have one of those rare god-tanks and/or the even rarer dps who doesn't stand in easily avoidable damage. There are no other options other than these now.

On top of that, as some others have already mentioned, skill timers are just weird now. I can actually appreciate Zos's attempt to standardize the HoT/DoT timers, and had they done it more thoroughly and carefully, it would have actually been a fantastic change. It was a great idea, but poor execution. Unless you have lots of hours logged learning how to dynamically keep up your HoTs/DoTs, you're going to struggle HARD this patch. It's just not possible to run a successful static rotation right now, and that is unfortunately what the majority of players just venturing into endgame content are most comfortable with. Now they have to focus dynamic uptimes while learning brand new mechanics that they have to be doubly vigilant for because healers can no longer provide enough heals to compensate for missteps.

Did they succeed in making the game more difficult for those us us at the top? Somewhat- dps are doing just fine and have adapted. Healing is butts now though and not nearly as fun as it used to be. It's just feels like a stressful job and I'd rather get paid while feeling that way, thanks anyway. So yeah, they succeeded in ruining the game for some of us, so good job I guess? For the vast majority of the game though, they made it exponentially worse, which was NOT what they claimed their aim was when they released that patch. Sure, go ahead and kick end-game healers in the hoo-hah. We'll either go bring our money to a different game, or stick around and power through it until the next over-buff patch comes out, and either way, it's not going to matter to most players or anyone at Zos hq. But for the rest of the community? Don't leave it like this. It's not good, at all. It needs work and some CAREFUL tuning. I really wish I could make the word "careful" much larger, just to stress that part...

I think this is overstated as well. If by gear, you mean support gear on your tanks and healers for buffs, than yeah, gear plays a massive part. If by gear you mean what your DPS are wearing, sorry, just not the case. Of course it moves the needle, but take any really competitive end game player, put them in Orders Wrath and Mothers Sorrow, and they will still run circles around most of us.

I would probably put the order something like this in terms of what impacts damage:

1. Managing a Dynamic Rotation (1st place by a freaking mile), this is where timers come into play.
2. Group support. Gear matters here, but not for the DPS.
3. Weaving, but there is some room between second and third place.
4. Gear worn by DPS, in terms of Meta vs Easy to acquire substitutes. Now of course, I am not comparing gold perfected Trial gear to white mismatched gear, I am comparing gold gear that is hard to get vs gold gear that is easy to get. If we plan to balance the game around the naked guy in Deshaan, then just unplug the servers and be done. LOL

The difference between something like perf relequen and purple(with purple enchants) gear with no set bonuses is around 15% which granted is quite a lot but not as much as most people think, the difference between a set like vicious serpent and rele is around 7 to 8%(this one is pretty easy to tell as you can just deduct the damage on cmx).

Sure the worst possible could be as much as 50% less damage but I don't think anyone would purposefully hamper themselves to that point with most utility setups(stuff that adds survivability or sustain for example) being around 10% to 30% less damage than a full parse setup.

Yeah, I totally get its not fair to say that gear doesnt matter. But I think most people don't realize how little it actually matters assuming you have made a reasonable effort for gear. Sidebar: I will make anyone on PC/NA a set of Orders Wrath in purple with gold enchants, as long as you promise to equip it. Ill probably toss in a gold weapon if I am in a good mood. I am swimming in this crap, just shoot a message in game.

I think its reasonable to say that we have to balance around players that have made builds that at least pass the smell test. News flash, people in purple or less mismatched gear dont know or care what the ceiling is doing for the most part.

Now I wont say its completely unimportant to them, because currently ZOS uses the absolute ceiling to balance content, which I believe is also a mistake (just like it would be a mistake to balance around the naked guy spamming LAs). One of the other areas where Code really hits the nail on the head is that vet HM content, especially trials, needs to be balanced around a larger group of players, not the .01 percent. It has been a long time since I was at the forefront of pushing the latest content, but I agree with code that rather than make it so only a tiny fraction can clear, they need to open it up a bit and let leaderboards be the end game for them. I have no objections to shiny rewards from leaderboards, assuming they dont give more power.

When VMOL launched, it took the better part of a year to have more than half a dozen raid groups with a HM clear on PC/NA. While that was one of my favorite periods of ESO, and really the last time I would call myself competitive, I think most would admit that's too much. We then went completely the other way with VHOF, where HM was almost no different than vet, and most competent groups cleared very quickly. I think we have swung too far back the other way at this point. I think a competent raid group that raids 2-3 nights a week, should be able to knock out trial HMs from a completion standpoint in a few weeks, certainly in one patch cycle. Right now we have 2-3 raid groups that explode it on patch day, and a lot of good groups that try and never get a clear.

MEBengalsFan2001

The skill gap isn't so easy unless you are comparing two players with characters that are equipped with the same gear, using the same food, same class, same potions, same race, same total CP with same allocation, same skills and rotation and both players can do proper uptime for buffs and dots. Now in this type of scenario proper weaving would be the difference between two players.

The devs are simply trying to narrow the gap for the players that were doing say 60-70K on a sparring target to a closer value of what elite players can do. Meaning the players having issues weaving but that can do everything else right would have damage closer. This would allow more middle of the road players to join harder content as that gap shrinks.

The gap between bottom end players and elite grew because damage in general went down and now players who aren't use to rotations, keeping buffs up etc... that may have previously relied on heavy/light attacks or skills that don't do higher damage are now further behind and that is where the skill gap still exist. Adding to this issue is that some of the lower skill players don't have proper gear and honestly some just don't care.

I know some games use gear score as a way help level up players. The higher your GS is the higher content you can run. Higher GS means more stats and more stats means more damage. The GS system is basically what Vet levels and Vet gear was when this game first game out. I dislike GS systems.

I personally like how ESO is with a max of 160 for gear. From there it is a matter of finding the right gear that works with how you play to maximize your damage. Yeah some sets do provide much higher damage than others.

I really hope the devs continue shrinking the gap between players who simply have issues weaving but can do everything else correctly. As that gap shrinks it will have a negative impact to the general population that is not as skilled and unfortunately that is just how the cookie will crumble if that is what the devs goal is.

Now if the goal is to shrink the gap between top end and bottom end, best way to do that is cap how damage someone can do in a specific window of time and set a minimum damage a player can do within that same window meaning an ability may get a good boost in damage every so often. This would ensure lower end dps meet a minimum standard and higher end dps would be capped. This is not a solution I would support.

boi_anachronism_

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The skill gap isn't so easy unless you are comparing two players with characters that are equipped with the same gear, using the same food, same class, same potions, same race, same total CP with same allocation, same skills and rotation and both players can do proper uptime for buffs and dots. Now in this type of scenario proper weaving would be the difference between two players.

The devs are simply trying to narrow the gap for the players that were doing say 60-70K on a sparring target to a closer value of what elite players can do. Meaning the players having issues weaving but that can do everything else right would have damage closer. This would allow more middle of the road players to join harder content as that gap shrinks.

The gap between bottom end players and elite grew because damage in general went down and now players who aren't use to rotations, keeping buffs up etc... that may have previously relied on heavy/light attacks or skills that don't do higher damage are now further behind and that is where the skill gap still exist. Adding to this issue is that some of the lower skill players don't have proper gear and honestly some just don't care.

I know some games use gear score as a way help level up players. The higher your GS is the higher content you can run. Higher GS means more stats and more stats means more damage. The GS system is basically what Vet levels and Vet gear was when this game first game out. I dislike GS systems.

I personally like how ESO is with a max of 160 for gear. From there it is a matter of finding the right gear that works with how you play to maximize your damage. Yeah some sets do provide much higher damage than others.

I really hope the devs continue shrinking the gap between players who simply have issues weaving but can do everything else correctly. As that gap shrinks it will have a negative impact to the general population that is not as skilled and unfortunately that is just how the cookie will crumble if that is what the devs goal is.

Now if the goal is to shrink the gap between top end and bottom end, best way to do that is cap how damage someone can do in a specific window of time and set a minimum damage a player can do within that same window meaning an ability may get a good boost in damage every so often. This would ensure lower end dps meet a minimum standard and higher end dps would be capped. This is not a solution I would support.

Unfortunately the dps gap between elite and folks in the 60k range also got bigger. I've cleared most vet content in the game and was sitting around 80k. I'm now down to 63k while folks on the high end are breaking 120k again.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

Jaraal

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The gap between bottom end players and elite grew because damage in general went down and now players who aren't use to rotations, keeping buffs up etc... that may have previously relied on heavy/light attacks or skills that don't do higher damage are now further behind and that is where the skill gap still exist. Adding to this issue is that some of the lower skill players don't have proper gear and honestly some just don't care.

And this is where the disconnect is. ZOS has stated that they want to close the skill gap, but the problem with that is that the gap exists because those on the lower end either can't or don't want to improve.

You can't make players get better if they don't want to put in the effort. Top end players are good because they research, practice, and utilize what works best for them. And if those who make up the "floor" actually want to improve, but are hampered by physical or other limitations, then nothing about Update 35 makes it any easier for them.

Zezin

Jaraal wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The gap between bottom end players and elite grew because damage in general went down and now players who aren't use to rotations, keeping buffs up etc... that may have previously relied on heavy/light attacks or skills that don't do higher damage are now further behind and that is where the skill gap still exist. Adding to this issue is that some of the lower skill players don't have proper gear and honestly some just don't care.

And this is where the disconnect is. ZOS has stated that they want to close the skill gap, but the problem with that is that the gap exists because those on the lower end either can't or don't want to improve.

You can't make players get better if they don't want to put in the effort. Top end players are good because they research, practice, and utilize what works best for them. And if those who make up the "floor" actually want to improve, but are hampered by physical or other limitations, then nothing about Update 35 makes it any easier for them.

There's that and there's also the problem of the game not giving any meaningful advice on how to optimize your damage, no LA weaving tutorial and no real overland challenges that would incentive someone to change how they play to be able to accomplish something difficult.

Flangdoodle

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Because there are NO TUTORIALS. Nothing in-game teaches people how to use their skills, weapons, armor, or what the significance of any of it is. ZOS relies almost entirely on unpaid players, streamers and YouTubers to teach people how to use their content. In fact the only mention in the game of how to do things are in the recaps after you've DIED, or "hints" on the load screens - both of which are a joke.

They expressed their fear of "Power creep" - but the way to decrease that gap is to teach people how to play, not to hobble the loyal players who've invested a lot of time and money into their game. However rather than spending their resources on hiring writers, animators, artists, programmers etc. to create tutorials to *teach* their players - and maybe expand their loyal fan base, they've doubled down on overhauling their entire combat system - and expected their free labor lackeys to pick up the slack.

*Thats* why the skill gap is bigger.

Ragnarok0130

Zezin wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

The gap between bottom end players and elite grew because damage in general went down and now players who aren't use to rotations, keeping buffs up etc... that may have previously relied on heavy/light attacks or skills that don't do higher damage are now further behind and that is where the skill gap still exist. Adding to this issue is that some of the lower skill players don't have proper gear and honestly some just don't care.

And this is where the disconnect is. ZOS has stated that they want to close the skill gap, but the problem with that is that the gap exists because those on the lower end either can't or don't want to improve.

You can't make players get better if they don't want to put in the effort. Top end players are good because they research, practice, and utilize what works best for them. And if those who make up the "floor" actually want to improve, but are hampered by physical or other limitations, then nothing about Update 35 makes it any easier for them.

There's that and there's also the problem of the game not giving any meaningful advice on how to optimize your damage, no LA weaving tutorial and no real overland challenges that would incentive someone to change how they play to be able to accomplish something difficult.

I agree there should be much better tutorials in ESO and definitely a full LA tutorial but ZoS does tell the player about weaving.

Freelancer_ESO

Keep in mind that the experience in the group finder with randoms is bad enough that many people will choose not to use it with randoms much of the time.

This in turn leaves you with a population made up primarily of people that are either new or have no better options which frequently means they aren't very social or they aren't very good which can lead to lousy outcomes.

Some of U35's changes included nerfs to HOTs which previously would keep players alive even when they ran away like a headless chicken dodging heals. Healers could likely choose to set up to provide more healing but, since this isn't needed when people perform most don't bother.

U35 did make things easier on some builds but, it didn't do so universally and the damage hit at the top wasn't that big which puts a damper on the amount the effectiveness gap would close especially when people lower down are less likely to adapt than those higher up.

The challenge with closing the gap imho is less that the gap is hard to close and more that it's hard to close without massively generating rage.

Enundr

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

So i felt the skill gap became much bigger then before, and now i'm starting to refuse helping randoms. I liked to do it before i can do HM solo i got an amazing proc group. But when i play with randoms i just let them die because i rather have my companion in the group. My companion can do more damge or better tanking so i just finish dungeons on my own even when the randoms died.
So now i just can't carry randoms anymore i just play with them for the pledge or the random dungeon thing but they are just decoration.

Why is the skill gap bigger?
Their damage sucks they die very fast. And i just put heals on for them and that's not even enough.
I don't understand i used to like carrying randoms to achievements.

pretty much they lied about their actual intent. they werent happy about the top 1% players burning through their trials and other content like it was nothing so they wanted to attack them (ie nerf things based on them that affect ALL players) , but they wanted to SOUND justified by saying theyre making the game more accessible.

Enundr

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Once again Zos accomplishes the exact opposite of their stated goals. They have to be trolling us at this point. They cannot be this [REDACTED].

it was never their intent to make the game more accessible , it was fine before the update , it was an excuse they used to justify nerfing based on the top 1% players being as good as they are.

TaSheen

Enundr wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Once again Zos accomplishes the exact opposite of their stated goals. They have to be trolling us at this point. They cannot be this [REDACTED].

it was never their intent to make the game more accessible , it was fine before the update , it was an excuse they used to justify nerfing based on the top 1% players being as good as they are.

But - that did not happen, you know.

Shadesofkin

After u35 I went from 85k to 60k, and Im nearly back up to the 80's but I'm what I like to call "tier 2" I put the effort in to a certain extent.

I've already outpaced people who have more CP than me in my guild, because they just don't care to change...I've even run into a few people in my social guild who call trying to bridge that gap "a toxic mindset" and will try to shout over me about dps and strategies if I bring them up.

There is a certain limit to what can be done to close the skill gap if the player base at the bottom or even at the middle, doesn't want to try to do all those things. ZoS's choices in U35 feel well intentioned but poorly thought out when it comes to content difficulty...especially once LFG gets involved and you can't promise anyones communicating during the content.

Enundr

TaSheen wrote: »

Enundr wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Once again Zos accomplishes the exact opposite of their stated goals. They have to be trolling us at this point. They cannot be this [REDACTED].

it was never their intent to make the game more accessible , it was fine before the update , it was an excuse they used to justify nerfing based on the top 1% players being as good as they are.

But - that did not happen, you know.

it did , they lost so much trust they drove a good amount of players away just from steam charts alone , id be curious to see ALL player counts myself across all platforms. they were told this update was a mistake and only did half measures in adjustments , never showing proof of their claim to be true while PTS players proved otherwise.

Enundr

Shadesofkin wrote: »

After u35 I went from 85k to 60k, and Im nearly back up to the 80's but I'm what I like to call "tier 2" I put the effort in to a certain extent.

I've already outpaced people who have more CP than me in my guild, because they just don't care to change...I've even run into a few people in my social guild who call trying to bridge that gap "a toxic mindset" and will try to shout over me about dps and strategies if I bring them up.

There is a certain limit to what can be done to close the skill gap if the player base at the bottom or even at the middle, doesn't want to try to do all those things. ZoS's choices in U35 feel well intentioned but poorly thought out when it comes to content difficulty...especially once LFG gets involved and you can't promise anyones communicating during the content.

and of course there were ppl saying they wont group with randoms after U35 as well , wanting to make the game more accessible is one thing , but very few ppl actually felt like thats what their update did , and instead just felt like a massive nerf fest instead (not sure how nerfing players makes things more accessible.....heck before the first changes they did the ppl on pts couldnt clear dps checks.....that was kinda bad......the update literally gave the exact opposite vibes of making i feel accessible as the aforementioned isue was the first massive red flag players neeeded aside from the lack of dev responses about the concerns).

Frogmother

People complain about low levels who don't understand the mechanics.

Let's also look at the other side, power creeps who became so op that they can burn through many enemies in seconds and don't have to take care about game mechanics.

Seen many times that one op player just ran ahead killing everything and the new/normal players barely could keep up with him, especially if the op player ran past some trash mobs the new players had to deal with. Same for boss fight, the op is used to skip different phases because of the huge damage output and complains if the other once again keep up with him.

How can a new player learn the mechanics if he does not get the chance to? Or worse, he gets insulted for being so slow?
If someone experiences such behavior then it's understandable that some start to google for "best builds" and copy them in the hope to be able to keep up. But then they still don't know how to play these builds and also still do not know the mechanics.

New or average player are only half of the problem. Arrogant meta elitists are the other half.

TaSheen

There's a lot of rhetoric about "people who don't want to learn" around here lately. It's not always that. I have zero interest in anything pvp or end game, so why would I waste the fun times I have in game beating my head on stuff I have no intention of ever doing? Burned out on end game crap in other games, not doing it ever again - not to mention I'm not going to ask people to put up with my massive ping in group content.

As it happens, U35 didn't hurt my wardens nearly as bad as I expected - because the 160s are all using Oakensoul, and I've made other tweaks to gear. I'm about to try Order's Wrath to see how that compares. The interesting thing is that prior to U35 I had a very hard time staying alive with more than 3 mobs beating on my characters; after U35 I'm not having any problem at all with 7 or 8 at a time.

No, my ability to weave has not improved - I'm the same crap-reflexes-and-internet player I was pre-U35.