Why is the skill gap bigger?

ForzaRammer

Because hybrid meta sucks, but honestly I expected worse

ssewallb14_ESO

Because their attempts at making rotations easier actually made them way harder, and they lowered damage for everyone but the very high-end.

Jaraal

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Because their attempts at making rotations easier actually made them way harder, and they lowered damage for everyone but the very high-end.

Their "attempt to quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end" essentially nerfed everyone but the high end. Plus the high end bosses were made 10% weaker.

I can't explain it, and apparently they can't either, since the promised Q&A about the U35 combat changes seems to have vanished.

ssewallb14_ESO

Jaraal wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Because their attempts at making rotations easier actually made them way harder, and they lowered damage for everyone but the very high-end.

Their "attempt to quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end" essentially nerfed everyone but the high end. Plus the high end bosses were made 10% weaker.

I can't explain it, and apparently they can't either, since the promised Q&A about the U35 combat changes seems to have vanished.

I think they got overconfident. CP 2.0 and hybridization proved that they could mess with big game systems and get good results. Significantly changing the actual combat mechanics is a whole different ball game though.

AvalonRanger

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

>> Oreyn_Bearclaw
"Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards."

Top of PVE ?????? Sorry, 100% disagree with you.
Dead DPS= zero damage. And, I'm 100% correct. I don't care such kind of leaderboards ranking.

You don't understand how many real tank player feel huge stress against
those BRAIN-DEAD-ZOMBIE glass canon guys.

Regardless building style or target dummy score, ZOMBIE DPS is same as fake DPS.

When I lost every DPS and fake healer at the normal random dungeon run with brink an eye
by nonsense mistake. I really wanted to KICK THEM OUT.
Actually I didn't kick any of them. Instead of that, I killed dungeon boss by solo tank, and
leave after finished my business without saying any comment.
1 per 5 rate, I meet those nonsense player in random grouping.

Usually they have huge amount of damage. Well, it's fascinating!!
However, don't have any of self defense tactics, no self healing skills,
but keep standing dangerous damage zone, or never try to cover by obstacles
to avoid own death. They looks like walking-dead-ZOMBIE who has bazooka
canon. And, before they shoot their fancy bazooka canon, they die instantly...mostly.

Moreover, those type of players ignore the cloud control, and go rush into the much of
Mobs or poison area. And die many times. (And complain against tank role , right?)

Sigh...Seriously, just ...Why?? Please stop that. I just don't want to meet those team mate
in such a daily random normal dungeon mandatory(or gear farming).

Please testing your solo combat ability at the world boss in DLC zone.
That's more reliable testing than fake dummy trial.

VictorDragonslayer

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

>> Oreyn_Bearclaw
"Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards."

Top of PVE ?????? Sorry, 100% disagree with you.
Dead DPS= zero damage. And, I'm 100% correct. I don't care such kind of leaderboards ranking.

You don't understand how many real tank player feel huge stress against
those BRAIN-DEAD-ZOMBIE glass canon guys.

Regardless building style or target dummy score, ZOMBIE DPS is same as fake DPS.

When I lost every DPS and fake healer at the normal random dungeon run with brink an eye
by nonsense mistake. I really wanted to KICK THEM OUT.
Actually I didn't kick any of them. Instead of that, I killed dungeon boss by solo tank, and
leave after finished my business without saying any comment.
1 per 5 rate, I meet those nonsense player in random grouping.

Usually they have huge amount of damage. Well, it's fascinating!!
However, don't have any of self defense tactics, no self healing skills,
but keep standing dangerous damage zone, or never try to cover by obstacles
to avoid own death. They looks like walking-dead-ZOMBIE who has bazooka
canon. And, before they shoot their fancy bazooka canon, they die instantly...mostly.

Moreover, those type of players ignore the cloud control, and go rush into the much of
Mobs or poison area. And die many times. (And complain against tank role , right?)

Sigh...Seriously, just ...Why?? Please stop that. I just don't want to meet those team mate
in such a daily random normal dungeon mandatory(or gear farming).

Please testing your solo combat ability at the world boss in DLC zone.
That's more reliable testing than fake dummy trial.

[Snip]

Damage can be meant for tanks or for anyone. It is avoidable or unavoidable. Tank can't hold target - damage meant for tank goes to someone else (it's not DDs' fault that tank can't hold taunt for 100% of the time, therefore they can't be blamed for not having heals in otherwise low damage fight, especially when there is a healer). Healer can't outheal unavoidable damage - DDs will suffer. Whoever gets avoidable damage - well, bad for them.

Tank's job is to hold designated targets, do tank mechanics and provide debuffs / buffs. Healer's job is to provide resources / buffs and heal through healer mechanics. DD's job is to output maximum damage into designated target and do DD mechanics.

In 4-man content you can replace healer with another DD when group have enough damage and sustain. In 12-man content group composition depends on RL's idea.

Should DD be a glass cannon? In 12-man content for most of the time - yes. There are specific cases (for example: vAS+2, vCR, Lokke HM) where heals / shields are necessary. In 4-man content - depends on content and group composition. In solo - no, you need to sustain yourself. You can't create create a build which will be the best for every encounter and composition, being able to accept your limitations and adapt accordingly is a part of personal skill.

Regarding dummy parses. These are meant to hone one's rotation and test different builds. You need to adjust your build depending on encounter and your personal skill. Personal skill comes from doing vet content and striving to do it even better. "He parsed 90k into 21kk, but died, while I parsed 45k into 21kk and survived, therefore I'm better DD" is false dychotomy.

Regarding your comment about leaderboards. Well, you confirmed that your knowledge of the game is lacking. In order to score push people have to play the fights in the unintended way. Yes, they do tremendous damage, but this damage comes from everyone in the group. Everyone has to provide perfect buff and debuff uptimes, do perfect rotation and survive overlapping mechanics. That's where you are fundamentally wrong - score pushers know mechanics (they did these before), know which can be skipped and can handle overlapping unskippable mechanics.

BTW, I'm MT in GH prog group (we have vCR+3 closed), have TTT and IR as DD, so feel free to relay me your insights from random normals about proper builds and group compositions, just don't expect that I'll accept them.

[Edited for rude comment]

MEBengalsFan2001

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

Been playing support role in many MMOs. When I hear from another player that they are a beast damage dealer and can do X amount of damage in content etc... I spend more time picking up that player. The issue I see isn't that top DPS are not following mechanics. It's player who achieve that sparring target value who believe they are top and boast about are the ones dying because they don't know mechanics and that hurt group completion of content.

As a side note, I basically quit PVE dungeons and trials because I found it hard to get with a group that is willing to teach players content and mechanics that are new to the content and mechanics. In fact, that lack of support is why I left ESO for a year and only came back to the game to play PVP as I was a hard core PVE player.

Now I'm simply doing dailies and finishing up overland quest/maps on my main as PVP isn't fun for me anymore on my Templar.

There is a skill gap in ESO because it is a complex game with many stats, skills, gears, races, classes, etc.. Even within that you have two types of DPS stamina and magic. Within that context you also have melee and range along with the standard AoE, Single Target, etc... all of this translate into the game giving players so much that the average casual player can't compete damage wise with a player that spends hours on end testing their build.

I've done both and lately casual IMO is a lot more fun as I don't have to worry about doing 100K damage to get into content. I play as a want and that includes PVP builds I like.

MEBengalsFan2001

Frogmother wrote: »

People complain about low levels who don't understand the mechanics.

Let's also look at the other side, power creeps who became so op that they can burn through many enemies in seconds and don't have to take care about game mechanics.

Seen many times that one op player just ran ahead killing everything and the new/normal players barely could keep up with him, especially if the op player ran past some trash mobs the new players had to deal with. Same for boss fight, the op is used to skip different phases because of the huge damage output and complains if the other once again keep up with him.

How can a new player learn the mechanics if he does not get the chance to? Or worse, he gets insulted for being so slow?
If someone experiences such behavior then it's understandable that some start to google for "best builds" and copy them in the hope to be able to keep up. But then they still don't know how to play these builds and also still do not know the mechanics.

New or average player are only half of the problem. Arrogant meta elitists are the other half.

Are you referring to a normal dungeon or vet dungeon. I mean if you build a character right you can do Vet solo, especially now with companions.

As for reg vs. vet, regular dungeons especially the older ones are so easy the more experienced player is probably only running it for their transmute.

AvalonRanger

VictorDragonslayer wrote:

There are so many things mixed in your head....
Should DD be a glass cannon? In 12-man content for most of the time - yes. There are specific cases (for example: vAS+2, vCR, Lokke HM) where heals / shields are necessary. In 4-man content - depends on content and group composition. In solo - no, you need to sustain yourself.....

Big Sigh...(/._.\). OK - OK, bro. I can understand what you want to say. It's correct.
And, I've known that some specific contents need extremely off balanced playing style.

However, is daily random normal so specific end - contents? Of course NOT.
I just want "GOOD TEAM WORKER" mostly rather than such a selfish end-gamer hero.

When I saw CP2500 brain dead zombie end-gamer DPS who couldn't survive just 10 sec after starting
DLC normal dungeon boss combat, I did rage quit.

>There are so many things mixed in your head....

Because, ESO is mixing too much different "basis" in the single game package.

If some MMO zealot who want to play group trial or Vet end-contents, then just keep staying your world.
Please do not use random queue for normal daily. I don't try to kick them by myself, but don't
want to help them, or revive them anymore.

I'm tired of it.

Pelanora

U*S*E*R

T*E*S*T*I*N*G

Ragnarok0130

TaSheen wrote: »

Enundr wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

Once again Zos accomplishes the exact opposite of their stated goals. They have to be trolling us at this point. They cannot be this [REDACTED].

it was never their intent to make the game more accessible , it was fine before the update , it was an excuse they used to justify nerfing based on the top 1% players being as good as they are.

But - that did not happen, you know.

Except that it did. The thing about the end game and specifically the top of the end game is that they know the game, its systems, and their builds well enough to adjust to nerfs and recover the DPS that they lost which they did post U35. It's the rest of the game that is either stuck in the "new normal" or slowly adjusting and recovering which is why the accessibility gap is larger in U35 than under U34. As a trial healer post U35 I made some changes based on what I saw from higher tier raid healers and regained a lot of effectiveness and sustain although some healing loss is still noticeable in certain situations.

VictorDragonslayer

AvalonRanger wrote: »

VictorDragonslayer wrote:

There are so many things mixed in your head....
Should DD be a glass cannon? In 12-man content for most of the time - yes. There are specific cases (for example: vAS+2, vCR, Lokke HM) where heals / shields are necessary. In 4-man content - depends on content and group composition. In solo - no, you need to sustain yourself.....

Big Sigh...(/._.\). OK - OK, bro. I can understand what you want to say. It's correct.
And, I've known that some specific contents need extremely off balanced playing style.

However, is daily random normal so specific end - contents? Of course NOT.
I just want "GOOD TEAM WORKER" mostly rather than such a selfish end-gamer hero.

When I saw CP2500 brain dead zombie end-gamer DPS who couldn't survive just 10 sec after starting
DLC normal dungeon boss combat, I did rage quit.

>There are so many things mixed in your head....

Because, ESO is mixing too much different "basis" in the single game package.

If some MMO zealot who want to play group trial or Vet end-contents, then just keep staying your world.
Please do not use random queue for normal daily. I don't try to kick them by myself, but don't
want to help them, or revive them anymore.

I'm tired of it.

Maybe your definition of endgame player differs from mine. For me endgame player is a person who finds vet content not that challenging and seeks HMs. CP has nothing to do with it, actually, I've seen enough weak players with high CP.

Team work vs egoism is a rather interesting subject. I pursue my own interests in a normal PUG (I don't PUG vets anymore), yet try to do it in an optimal way (the result of these optimisations is a fast and successful clear): I can run in front of tank and pull several small packs in order to stack them in one place, because I doubt that random tank knows what is a stacked pack. Each teammate is labeled according to his performance: average / good, useful / detrimental / expendable. An example: got into Fang Lair, only one person knew mechanics, two others died to Thurvokun's poison, I finished off the boss. As a "healer" I should've helped the team, but, according to previous evaluations, teammates were considered average and expendable. "Tank" was without a taunt, DDs were new, Thurvokun stayed on me, so I had a full control of situation.

I rage quit normal ERE on the first boss several days ago. Was a real DD, queued up as one, got 195 lvl tank without taunt, 1100+ lvl healer without heals and 3000+ lvl DD who did less damage than me, though boss was running a lot and I was dead because of constant dots. There I was, lying on the ground for a second time, and got a thought: why should I bother? Why should I get up and carry people as necromancer with zero healing skills, when the boss can't be stationary (about half of my damage comes from ground dots) and other people can't even comprehend gameplay basics? So I left without saying a word. Lesson learned, though: I slot a healing skill, queue up as a healer, heal the party and do 33%+ of group DPS. An attempt to respect other DDs in a queue ended in a spectacular failure, so... nevermore.

Why should I avoid queueing random nomals? I want quick XP / transmutes, I can play the selected role and no one can stop me from realising my ambitions, which are selfish in their origin yet advance entire team.

Dojohoda

Are you saying that the spaghetti didn't stick? The master chefs here said that would happen before u35 was served.

p00tx

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

Good players don't die to mechanics in a "glass cannon build". Inexperienced players trying to emulate the experienced player do though. Obviously I don't know your gaming experiences, so I could be wrong here, but I think you've likely seen the latter. The builds you see in the videos are for players playing in an well organized and fully optimized group with a strong raidlead who knows how to direct the group with solid and timely callouts. They are not meant for unorganized pugs in random dungeon queues. Calling players disgusting is maybe a little over the top, especially when there are players across the entire spectrum of experience in this game.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

Been playing support role in many MMOs. When I hear from another player that they are a beast damage dealer and can do X amount of damage in content etc... I spend more time picking up that player. The issue I see isn't that top DPS are not following mechanics. It's player who achieve that sparring target value who believe they are top and boast about are the ones dying because they don't know mechanics and that hurt group completion of content.

As a side note, I basically quit PVE dungeons and trials because I found it hard to get with a group that is willing to teach players content and mechanics that are new to the content and mechanics. In fact, that lack of support is why I left ESO for a year and only came back to the game to play PVP as I was a hard core PVE player.

Now I'm simply doing dailies and finishing up overland quest/maps on my main as PVP isn't fun for me anymore on my Templar.

There is a skill gap in ESO because it is a complex game with many stats, skills, gears, races, classes, etc.. Even within that you have two types of DPS stamina and magic. Within that context you also have melee and range along with the standard AoE, Single Target, etc... all of this translate into the game giving players so much that the average casual player can't compete damage wise with a player that spends hours on end testing their build.

I've done both and lately casual IMO is a lot more fun as I don't have to worry about doing 100K damage to get into content. I play as a want and that includes PVP builds I like.

That is all anecdotal evidence. Did you see their parses or logs? I am guessing not.

I am not saying that there arent the offhand people that pares through the roof and cant play the game in actual content, but I will certainly die on the hill firmly stating that it is NOT the norm. I am in multiple trial guilds that require DPS parses for groups and tags. In other words, when I raid with guildmates, everybody knows how they parse on the top end, because they need to post it each patch. And generally speaking, there is an extremely high correlation between people with high DPS and people that can follow mechanics.

The same people with the highest dummy parses, typically have both the highest parses in trial content, coupled with the lowest death count. Death count is also something any trial group monitors. Those last two clearly go hand in hand, as its essentially impossible to lead your group in both damage and deaths.

Now certainly, the best of us sometimes get DPS blinders when our parse is looking great, and certainly its easy to forget about a mechanic the your group skips 99% of the time, but these are all things that occur on the margins.

Sorry, but random pickup groups or groupfinder is just not a place to get a fair gauge on this stuff. I dont care what anyone says they can do, unless it is backed up by time/date stamped parses or logs.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

>> Oreyn_Bearclaw
"Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards."

Top of PVE ?????? Sorry, 100% disagree with you.
Dead DPS= zero damage. And, I'm 100% correct. I don't care such kind of leaderboards ranking.

You don't understand how many real tank player feel huge stress against
those BRAIN-DEAD-ZOMBIE glass canon guys.

Regardless building style or target dummy score, ZOMBIE DPS is same as fake DPS.

When I lost every DPS and fake healer at the normal random dungeon run with brink an eye
by nonsense mistake. I really wanted to KICK THEM OUT.
Actually I didn't kick any of them. Instead of that, I killed dungeon boss by solo tank, and
leave after finished my business without saying any comment.
1 per 5 rate, I meet those nonsense player in random grouping.

Usually they have huge amount of damage. Well, it's fascinating!!
However, don't have any of self defense tactics, no self healing skills,
but keep standing dangerous damage zone, or never try to cover by obstacles
to avoid own death. They looks like walking-dead-ZOMBIE who has bazooka
canon. And, before they shoot their fancy bazooka canon, they die instantly...mostly.

Moreover, those type of players ignore the cloud control, and go rush into the much of
Mobs or poison area. And die many times. (And complain against tank role , right?)

Sigh...Seriously, just ...Why?? Please stop that. I just don't want to meet those team mate
in such a daily random normal dungeon mandatory(or gear farming).

Please testing your solo combat ability at the world boss in DLC zone.
That's more reliable testing than fake dummy trial.

There is so much going on in that, I am frankly not sure where to start. Yes, leaderboards serve to tell us who is top of PVE. I cant even fathom why that would be debatable.

Soloing WBs is trivial compared to being on top of a leaderboard. For any non DLC WB, I can solo them in my trial setup as you can simply nuke them where they stand in under a minute, maybe sprinkle in a roll dodge or two. For some of the DLC ones, sure, they are harder, but it really becomes more of a ware of attrition than anything. I certainly wouldn't use a glass cannon trial build to attempt that, but that is not the point of a glass cannon build. You are comparing apples to oranges.

A glass cannon build is designed around the premise that you have a tank to hold aggro and a healer to heal you. A solo build is designed around the premise that you need to do all 3 yourself. They simply arent the same thing.

MEBengalsFan2001

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why is the skill gap bigger?

Skill gap? What is the skill gap honestly?

Well, I've seen many of brain-dead DPS role in random group dungeon as tank role.
Unrealistic glass build player which ignore real combat situation keep standing damage zone
like brainless NPC. Then, instant death many times. I don't want to revive them anymore.
It's time wasting.

Some hilarious stupid target dummy maniac youtuber keep showing meaningless build.
Ignore realistic combat maneuver and tactics, then they keep doing nonsense death many times.

Dead DPS= zero damage. Disgusting players.

@AvalonRanger

This is such classic position to take, but it misses the mark entirely. The best players do take those trial dummy builds straight into vet content and nuke it, THAT'S THE SKILL GAP! Sure there might be a skill change here or there to maximize an encounter, and most run completely different AOE setups, but those are just glass cannon AOE builds. Same concept, different purpose.

I have been playing this game since Beta. When I am acting as a PVE DPS, its all damage. Every possible tradeoff, you take the damage route because the game is balanced and designed that way. The only possible exception is one skill where you slot a shield or self heal. The point is, DLC Vet HM content is designed around that level of damage. A one shot is a one shot whether I am wearing 7 light with 20k health, or 7 heavy with 30k. Why wear the later and do half the damage? As you said, Dead is dead.

Those same target dummy maniacs are the ones on top of PVE leaderboards. The notion that people with high DPS on dummies are automatically bad at mechanics is a fallacy put forth by players with low DPS. Nothing could be further from the truth based on all of my experience in ESO.

Been playing support role in many MMOs. When I hear from another player that they are a beast damage dealer and can do X amount of damage in content etc... I spend more time picking up that player. The issue I see isn't that top DPS are not following mechanics. It's player who achieve that sparring target value who believe they are top and boast about are the ones dying because they don't know mechanics and that hurt group completion of content.

As a side note, I basically quit PVE dungeons and trials because I found it hard to get with a group that is willing to teach players content and mechanics that are new to the content and mechanics. In fact, that lack of support is why I left ESO for a year and only came back to the game to play PVP as I was a hard core PVE player.

Now I'm simply doing dailies and finishing up overland quest/maps on my main as PVP isn't fun for me anymore on my Templar.

There is a skill gap in ESO because it is a complex game with many stats, skills, gears, races, classes, etc.. Even within that you have two types of DPS stamina and magic. Within that context you also have melee and range along with the standard AoE, Single Target, etc... all of this translate into the game giving players so much that the average casual player can't compete damage wise with a player that spends hours on end testing their build.

I've done both and lately casual IMO is a lot more fun as I don't have to worry about doing 100K damage to get into content. I play as a want and that includes PVP builds I like.

That is all anecdotal evidence. Did you see their parses or logs? I am guessing not.

I am not saying that there arent the offhand people that pares through the roof and cant play the game in actual content, but I will certainly die on the hill firmly stating that it is NOT the norm. I am in multiple trial guilds that require DPS parses for groups and tags. In other words, when I raid with guildmates, everybody knows how they parse on the top end, because they need to post it each patch. And generally speaking, there is an extremely high correlation between people with high DPS and people that can follow mechanics.

The same people with the highest dummy parses, typically have both the highest parses in trial content, coupled with the lowest death count. Death count is also something any trial group monitors. Those last two clearly go hand in hand, as its essentially impossible to lead your group in both damage and deaths.

Now certainly, the best of us sometimes get DPS blinders when our parse is looking great, and certainly its easy to forget about a mechanic the your group skips 99% of the time, but these are all things that occur on the margins.

Sorry, but random pickup groups or groupfinder is just not a place to get a fair gauge on this stuff. I dont care what anyone says they can do, unless it is backed up by time/date stamped parses or logs.

It was a guildie in a PVE guild that required parse for DPS and that is what he was. He typically runs trials. He said he would help us complete the dungeon. He even had the skin from the dungeon so we knew he knew the content. But low and behold he kept dying.

One of my last PVE runs sticks with me. I joined the guild for a trial run and they simply had an open spot for any role. I was on my sorc DPS that I was till tweaking at that time and they said that was fine. All experienced players other than one of the healers and the off tank. My first time in that trial as well, so three new players. I didn't have any issues other than resource mgmt as I was still tweaking that character build. On the last boss and all but the off tank and I survived a specific attack that was called out. I than picked up both healers and the main tank. Basically I saved us from wiping because I know all about picking up down players.

By the end I had one death and I consider that good considering I never been through that trial before.

Earlier this year I did try another vet trial with a different guild. I had mic issues so I missed some cues on the first boss fight. I didn't die but I did cause a few deaths because of the mechanic on that boss. Once I got on mic things were good. We couldn't beat it because the game glitched out on us.

I personally don't like being a DPS in PVE content. I prefer a healer or tank or another support role if the MMO game has it.

DPS has standard that many look at for content and from my experience playing various MMO games is most of the top DPS die the most. Because they are squishy. It's that simple.

AvalonRanger

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote:

....
A glass cannon build is designed around the premise that you have a tank to hold aggro and a healer to heal you. A solo build is designed around the premise that you need to do all 3 yourself. They simply arent the same thing.

Ah...I know logic of those. But, not such kind of problem actually.

The bad 1K high CP people who I met in the random normal running group are more irresponsible
and arrogance attitude rather than "high-end skill-gap" kind of problem.
They're people like in this thread of introduction.
(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/617534/dont-be-mr-tank/p1)

In 1 per 5 rate, those type of people show up at the random grouping normal running.
And, annoys other members.

They usually have extremely off-balanced glass canon style. I know it very needs for specific
end-contents, but doesn't work for 90% of ESO general purpose combat situation.

They usually think about themselves just like a "elite end-game players".
Keep saying" damage is everything". "If tank or healer will not work properly, I'll die!!"
"If I die, it's not my problem. Surviving is tank 's role"....(/._.\) Sigh....

I'm tired. I really wanted to kick them out. Or please do with your familiar friend.

And, don't have any of emergency escaping or self protection skill. Ignore tutorial phase
of DLC dungeon, so keep standing lethal poison zone intentionally. Dying just in corridor caught by
AoE, or killed by match of mobs, because they ignored tank's situation controls.

Those type of player can't survive in most of DLC normal dungeon boss combat with just 10 second.
Dead DPS= zero damage=fake DPS.
I hope they have sense more general adaptiveness rather than trivial damage increase technique.

ForzaRammer

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote:

....
A glass cannon build is designed around the premise that you have a tank to hold aggro and a healer to heal you. A solo build is designed around the premise that you need to do all 3 yourself. They simply arent the same thing.

Ah...I know logic of those. But, not such kind of problem actually.

The bad 1K high CP people who I met in the random normal running group are more irresponsible
and arrogance attitude rather than "high-end skill-gap" kind of problem.
They're people like in this thread of introduction.
(https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/617534/dont-be-mr-tank/p1)

In 1 per 5 rate, those type of people show up at the random grouping normal running.
And, annoys other members.

They usually have extremely off-balanced glass canon style. I know it very needs for specific
end-contents, but doesn't work for 90% of ESO general purpose combat situation.

They usually think about themselves just like a "elite end-game players".
Keep saying" damage is everything". "If tank or healer will not work properly, I'll die!!"
"If I die, it's not my problem. Surviving is tank 's role"....(/._.\) Sigh....

I'm tired. I really wanted to kick them out. Or please do with your familiar friend.

And, don't have any of emergency escaping or self protection skill. Ignore tutorial phase
of DLC dungeon, so keep standing lethal poison zone intentionally. Dying just in corridor caught by
AoE, or killed by match of mobs, because they ignored tank's situation controls.

Those type of player can't survive in most of DLC normal dungeon boss combat with just 10 second.
Dead DPS= zero damage=fake DPS.
I hope they have sense more general adaptiveness rather than trivial damage increase technique.

High parse players are on average way more consistent on mechs than low parse players. Number 1 reasons is more time spent and higher cp.


Also i am a low apm (50 ish) player who can’t parse, i still cleared all trials on hm except the newest. Why would i beg to be slotted with below average parse when i know i am consistent on mechs and i pull my own weight in all contents as a tank?

jtm1018

VictorDragonslayer wrote: »

Who could've predicted that nerfing damage and healing will make players to sweat harder in order to achieve previous results? /s

The optimal solution is to not play vet content with randoms. There were no accessibility in U35, ZOS reinforced the principle "try harder or go away". Skill gap can be made smaller only by teaching, but when some teachers are tired and some pupils' awareness is on par with one of a non-combat pet, well... you get what we have now.

I really wish I can give the agree, awesome and insightfull all at the same time.

rpa

If you have any expectations about performance of other people in a random normal, you have to queue already grouped with them. AFAIK in any gaem with random dungeons.
Aside, in other gaem there was a tank who could solo every dungeon and enjoyded taking new players trough explaining every mechanic. I often helped them beacuse it was rather relaxing compared to usual running.

Zymcio

Sorry i cannot agree with ppl here in PvE Terms the best option is just to nerf HP of bosses by additional 10-15% and it will be all good.

I like the current state ofc i would like it more if hybridization will be full.

In PvE i done almost all trifecta (4man and 12man) missing only RG and DSR but it is only matter of time and yes i am the guy who is doing max 110k on dummy (U34) in U35 i didnt even care doing parse.

Before RG and DSR we played with random setup like 3-4 sorc in party with few supports sets and hey we did it it just took some time. In 4man i never ever care if u play warden or templar or DK healer.

The truth is just you need to spend time to learn how to damage how to tank how to heal and know what are you doing + learing from misstakes. I can say even more in 4man i got x4 trifecta cuz i played with different group , ofc with some group it was ez like cake with some we go route like Hexos' Ward gear or one bar ring setup and still we manage to do it like stonegarden.

Summary:
I think the problem is not in the game only but in the mentality of the people

SPR_of_HA_community

A lot of EXP players leave the game after U35, players who are now in the game are more like casual gamers.

In PVP skills do not normally press, builds get nerfs, so a lot of players do not see reason to play TESO a lot, they do not already believe in this project.

After a lot of my friends abandoned the game I play in some 2003 year MMO game more, than in TESO now and waiting for new projects.

Constant game changes make no reason to seriosly play TESO, it is casual based project.