Is Hybridization removing our build diversity ?

EldritchSun · August 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Still waiting for someone to showcase this build diversity that supposedly existed before the hybrid changes. Try though I might, I haven't been able to find it myself. Before, just like now, all the guides and guilds would direct you towards a singular build that's best for each class and encounter. Sure, there may have been a split between Mag and Stam DPS before; all the difference there was you either used Unstable Wall, a ten-second mid-sized AoE, or Endless Hail, a ten-second mid-sized AoE. Wow, big diversity. . .

At the end of the day, it's the core elements of the game's combat that makes the meta so restrictive and stale. LA weaving + the GCD ensures that everyone in endgame is casting skills at the same rate, in the same pattern. LA > Buff, LA > Dot, LA > Spam till your buffs run out, repeat. That basic formula was the same for every single DPS build, from MagDK to StamCro. The same principle applies to why tanks and healers have even MORE restrictive builds than DPS; the mechanics of the game shove those roles into such a small corner that there's nothing else they can provide that makes up for what they lose by not going meta.

The big thing that the hybrid changes did was highlight just how meaningless a lot of the game's morphs were. Class skills in particular often were just a matter of what resource you used determining which morph you picked. There was no choice. So the way I see it, now the devs have to go through and try to make each morph actually worth picking on its own, which will legitimately increase the choices available for each build, thus drastically increasing diversity.

I'm glad someone said so. The only thing that was changed with hybridization is that we have 6 viable DD builds instead of 12.

DrSlaughtr · August 2022

danno8 wrote: »

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

What removes build diversity is a handful of sets that are miles better than a mountain of crap.

This. At first, I wasn't attracted at all to hybridization, as it felt very weird and counter-intuitive (this game changed so much afterall), but after a while I adapted, and now I like it! However, even with a wider variety of skills to choose, we are still hostages of certain procs/sets. This game has so many sets that they have to keep coming up with more and more powerful stuff in order to sell them. I wish they would slow down on the release of new sets and focus more on balancing the existing stuff. Rethink some procs and start balancing PvE and PvP differently. Less RNG and more playing.

It was funny seeing every single PTS build using the same two sets +mythic for parsing. Nirn, Reliquen and Kilt with some +crit helm was all that was used.

Sad that build diversity is so limited, even between classes, that the best results are unanimous use of the same exact sets.

Part of this is so you can get a baseline DPS test. If every time you parse you change gear you aren't getting good feedback on your rotation and your ability to hit everything properly.

If I parse once with x set up, then y set up, I'm going to get wildly different results with not much usable data because there is no control.

So I might wear the same exact set up and test different rotations.

Them on the flip side, I might run the same exact rotation and test different sets.

It just depends. Either way parsing is about getting your best score under perfect conditions. That's your baseline and that's why you parse.

Every trial has different set ups, so you don't do the same exact dps anyway.

Ksariyu · August 2022

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

Before they nerfed crit damage you could get there with a variety of sets before. Even stam toons could run vMA staff backbar and still be within 3-4% of top end numbers. You could run double 2H weapons and still be within a few percentage points of top end numbers.

You could run weapons expert CP and buff LA in combination with vMA staff and undaunted infiltrator/unweaver along side crushing/elemental weapon and still be within a few percentage points of the meta builds.

Changes to vMA 2H shifted the meta for backbars and made everything the same. Because crit dmg was capped the meta became raw damage and crit percentage. Which before all the changes you could still spec into before but with all the crit damage sources in the game pre nerf why would you?

That was the design error from the beginning which they used a heavy handed nerf to control without knowing there were other ways to achieve the same damage. Hybridization only enhanced the raw damage. The skill divertsity was already long gone. There is also no class or racial identity.

As a DPS you are either high elf or dark elf. There is zero reason to play any other race. When they changed cut percentage to crit damage ore crit nerf everyone was Khajiit, no reason to play anything else. The nerf came, the race is gutted. Orc still OK for stam, Breton OK for beginners, imperial OK all around race locked behind a paywall.

Class identity is gone because constant tinkering has shifted the meta every couple of month towards a new class and the nerf/buff cycle means your great class this year will be bottom of the heap next year, or maybe even sooner than that. This makes all the classes feel vanilla. It why we all choose the same weapon, world and guild skills to fill out our rotations, so many class skills to choose from and maybe 1 or 2 are useable.

That’s what hybridization amounted to, same vanilla ice cream, different packaging.

All of those example essentially boil down to how many ways you can add numbers to equal 10. The only one feeling the difference between those builds is the computer: 4 weapon damage there + 6 weapon damage here = 10. 7 weapon crit here + 3 weapon crit there = 10. Cool. You still play all of those builds the exact same way, you're just passively buffing different stats to hit the same damage numbers (Or as you point out, often still less damage).

As for the meta shifts, they are inevitable. Literally since launch there has been a top DPS/Tank/Healing class and a bottom one. Hybridization did nothing to change that. But it's like you said, the skill diversity hasn't been there for a long time. That's what the hybrid changes really revealed, and now they're working on fixing it.

IZZEFlameLash · August 2022

People keep bring up 'class identity' when they are actually talking about one attribute speccing of a class. For example, StamDK and MagDK have 1 similarity and 1 difference. Basically, both are DK class, and they are just spec'd differently. Class identity begins when there are things unique to DK as a whole in this case, and ZOS clipped that a while ago. They have been clipping many class unique skills for a while until the said abilities become a class accessible weapon ability (in essence) with different visuals otherwise unavailable to other classes.

If you want to talk class identity, talk about how every single available 6 classes play the same just like stam specs before more stam morphs were a thing. Like how DKs are not any more specialized in tanking than any other classes both in PvE and PvP because ZOS took reflect away for example. These are not hybridization problems but ZOS 'adjusting' with sledgehammer with no regard to identity.

Dragonlord573 · August 2022

Hybridization isn't a bad thing because it let's people have flexibility with their builds and allows variety. It is the spice of life after all. The issue is that none of the classes have any identity anymore other than class specific buffs they only have.

Every class should have a very clear purpose within all 3 roles. Every class should have pros and cons that keep them in line with one another. Some classes should be better at certain roles than others, but all classes should at least be able to be competent in their role. I.e. DK healing can work put a Warden and Templar would still be better. Like they are right now, but the difference would be that DK gets some better group support instead of just stagger and 1min of major brutality/sorcery.

We need the class rep system back and actually have the feedback be used

kamimark · August 2022

The only good thing about hybridization is, my Mag Necro was able to slot Critical Charge and have a gap closer, and not lose DPS for it. Not as good as having Streak, but if there's a mob in an awkward place I could reach them with it. It's still totally stupid, but it was the one bit of fun in new builds in the last several years.

Ranger209 · August 2022

What I would like to see at some point in the future is for them to look at the weapons, and start everyone with the same weapon skill to begin with, but then to make the morphs class specific. So everyone would start out with flurry for example, but then depending on what class you were the morphs would be different. So each class would have 2 unique morphs of flurry with different nuances that would play into class flavor.

Eiregirl · August 2022

Ksariyu wrote: »

Still waiting for someone to showcase this build diversity that supposedly existed before the hybrid changes. Try though I might, I haven't been able to find it myself. Before, just like now, all the guides and guilds would direct you towards a singular build that's best for each class and encounter. Sure, there may have been a split between Mag and Stam DPS before; all the difference there was you either used Unstable Wall, a ten-second mid-sized AoE, or Endless Hail, a ten-second mid-sized AoE. Wow, big diversity. . .

At the end of the day, it's the core elements of the game's combat that makes the meta so restrictive and stale. LA weaving + the GCD ensures that everyone in endgame is casting skills at the same rate, in the same pattern. LA > Buff, LA > Dot, LA > Spam till your buffs run out, repeat. That basic formula was the same for every single DPS build, from MagDK to StamCro. The same principle applies to why tanks and healers have even MORE restrictive builds than DPS; the mechanics of the game shove those roles into such a small corner that there's nothing else they can provide that makes up for what they lose by not going meta.

The big thing that the hybrid changes did was highlight just how meaningless a lot of the game's morphs were. Class skills in particular often were just a matter of what resource you used determining which morph you picked. There was no choice. So the way I see it, now the devs have to go through and try to make each morph actually worth picking on its own, which will legitimately increase the choices available for each build, thus drastically increasing diversity.

That has a lot of what I was about to say so...I will just give you a big thumbs up

Jaraal · August 2022

Nathyiel wrote: »

I had this strange idea while reading some post here : What if the consequence of Hybridization was to reduce our build diversity instead of adding more option ?

Hybridization was implemented with the idea to be able to mix Mag and Stam skill/weapon, to give more choice.

What is the result ?
pure build can't compete. Magsorc is dead ? Stamsorc too ? Time for the perfect Sorcerer with the best of both world.
I take the Sorc example because it's my main but it will be true with all class. Just use whatever is the best.

What will be the consequence ?
Weapon choice will be flavor.
Race with hybrid passive will out perform over pure Magicka/Stamina race.
"Class identity" will suffer ever more. Warden will be a teddy bear trainer in Elsa cosplay.

More seriously, Dev already start to buff skill for specific weapon (Winter's Revenge with a Destruction Staff).

I'm curious about this dev choice and what is planned for next chapter ?

ZOS's "vision" is standardization. It probably won't stop until all classes are identical.... only with different particle effects.

It's pretty close to that already. That, combined with removing achievements for alts makes it look like they are pushing us to one and done. Only need one character to play ESO. Then you can move on to a different game.

YandereGirlfriend · August 2022

Jaraal wrote: »

Nathyiel wrote: »

I had this strange idea while reading some post here : What if the consequence of Hybridization was to reduce our build diversity instead of adding more option ?

Hybridization was implemented with the idea to be able to mix Mag and Stam skill/weapon, to give more choice.

What is the result ?
pure build can't compete. Magsorc is dead ? Stamsorc too ? Time for the perfect Sorcerer with the best of both world.
I take the Sorc example because it's my main but it will be true with all class. Just use whatever is the best.

What will be the consequence ?
Weapon choice will be flavor.
Race with hybrid passive will out perform over pure Magicka/Stamina race.
"Class identity" will suffer ever more. Warden will be a teddy bear trainer in Elsa cosplay.

More seriously, Dev already start to buff skill for specific weapon (Winter's Revenge with a Destruction Staff).

I'm curious about this dev choice and what is planned for next chapter ?

ZOS's "vision" is standardization. It probably won't stop until all classes are identical.... only with different particle effects.

It's pretty close to that already. That, combined with removing achievements for alts makes it look like they are pushing us to one and done. Only need one character to play ESO. Then you can move on to a different game.

Which is very strange considering that increasing class identity would actually drive character slot sales from the Crown Store.

If every character plays the same then why would anyone expand beyond the default 8?

Jaraal · August 2022

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Nathyiel wrote: »

I had this strange idea while reading some post here : What if the consequence of Hybridization was to reduce our build diversity instead of adding more option ?

Hybridization was implemented with the idea to be able to mix Mag and Stam skill/weapon, to give more choice.

What is the result ?
pure build can't compete. Magsorc is dead ? Stamsorc too ? Time for the perfect Sorcerer with the best of both world.
I take the Sorc example because it's my main but it will be true with all class. Just use whatever is the best.

What will be the consequence ?
Weapon choice will be flavor.
Race with hybrid passive will out perform over pure Magicka/Stamina race.
"Class identity" will suffer ever more. Warden will be a teddy bear trainer in Elsa cosplay.

More seriously, Dev already start to buff skill for specific weapon (Winter's Revenge with a Destruction Staff).

I'm curious about this dev choice and what is planned for next chapter ?

ZOS's "vision" is standardization. It probably won't stop until all classes are identical.... only with different particle effects.

It's pretty close to that already. That, combined with removing achievements for alts makes it look like they are pushing us to one and done. Only need one character to play ESO. Then you can move on to a different game.

Which is very strange considering that increasing class identity would actually drive character slot sales from the Crown Store.

If every character plays the same then why would anyone expand beyond the default 8?

It doesn't make a lot of sense from the player retention standpoint, does it?

They said they were doing AwA mainly for performance reasons. But zero mention of that with Update 35, even though it appears that things like changing animations and standardizing DOTs, skills, and attacks would appear to help performance.

MindOfTheSwarm · August 2022

YES!!!! Hybrid builds were wanted and still are but this implementation method was completely wrong. A better method would have been a CP node that adds a flat damage buff to all skill (say 30%), with the added caveat that this amount is reduced by the difference between your 2 stats. Thus players with even stats would gain more benefit from it. And players that spec into one stat gain none or so little it wouldn’t be worth it.

Dragonredux · August 2022

I feel it's a double edged sword.

On the one hand, it's easier for someone to make a 2h flame wielding DK compared to back then and be reasonably effective. At least very least it helps solves some new player woes I like to believe.

On the other hand, it widens one of my main problems that I have with ESO. There's only around 100 or so usable for vet content and pvp out of the sea of 500+ sets in the game. The problem is made even for endgame having significantly less. Can't really make a new build that isn't just a specific theme without going "Why not just x set" instead.

Nathyiel · August 2022

Dragonredux wrote: »

I feel it's a double edged sword.

On the one hand, it's easier for someone to make a 2h flame wielding DK compared to back then and be reasonably effective. At least very least it helps solves some new player woes I like to believe.

On the other hand, it widens one of my main problems that I have with ESO. There's only around 100 or so usable for vet content and pvp out of the sea of 500+ sets in the game. The problem is made even for endgame having significantly less. Can't really make a new build that isn't just a specific theme without going "Why not just x set" instead.

2h flaming sword is a good example. on the other side, you have the frost mage. The whole Destruction Staff line is feel bad. And Frost isn't a dps staff. I hope for a new Tanking staff line so Frost staff can be safe to use in PvE. I think I will make a post on magic staff soon.

On set, I thing it's more like 50 META set. But most set work fine.
There's no power creep on gear unlike all other mmo.
And there's set that are designed to fill space. Like Ysgrammor. It's the Frost variate of set that give spell damage to a specific element skill. It was designed with Warden in mind but oops, Frost is for tanking.

there set for beginners but the game have evolved and there's no.more needs for this kind of set.

Finally, set are in good place. There's META set but most set are fine. Neither Relic or Monster set are required.

edward_frigidhands · August 2022

The short and simple answer is most definitely yes.

rexagamemnon · August 2022

No the constant shrinking class “identity” is killing build diversity

StarOfElyon · September 2022

Stx wrote: »

Hybridization does reduce build diversity, and I said as much when they were proposing the big changes. Most people disagreed, but its pretty clear to see. Stamina templar basically doesn't exist anymore, same for magicka sorcerer.

The only demographic of players where Hybridization actually increased build diversity is the group that doesn't care about performance, and just makes fun builds to play overland content with or normal mode content.

Since fun off meta builds were already possible before the Hybridization, I would say the negative impact far outweighs the positives.

I always played hybrids in PvE and PvP because it was fun so nothing has changed for me except that my builds are stronger than before. Other players only began playing hybrids because they saw "meta" options. I don't blame hybridization for ruining build diversity, player mentality did that. Just because ZOS gave us an option doesn't mean we have to choose it. Players ruin build diversity, not hybridization.

haelgaan · September 2022

i like the idea of hybridization, but the execution doesn't feel like it matches expectation.

everyone is a melee fighter with daggers now. where did the ranged role go? i suspect this is partly an artifact of dummy humping, and ranged can be competitive in real content - but why can't ranged also be competitive on the dummy?

i've been interested to start to see some bow/bow builds that are in the ballpark of melee builds. haven't seen staff builds doing the same yet

acastanza_ESO · September 2022

haelgaan wrote: »

i like the idea of hybridization, but the execution doesn't feel like it matches expectation.

everyone is a melee fighter with daggers now. where did the ranged role go? i suspect this is partly an artifact of dummy humping, and ranged can be competitive in real content - but why can't ranged also be competitive on the dummy?

i've been interested to start to see some bow/bow builds that are in the ballpark of melee builds. haven't seen staff builds doing the same yet

Ranged disappeared when they started actively penalizing people for picking ranged, and not building encounters to require at least a few running ranged builds. If they're going to make damage significancy lower for ranged players (like it is currently), and not adapt their encounter design to incentivize it other ways, then they need to give ranged access to unique group buffs or something to make up for the missing damage they could've brough instead.

Styxius · September 2022

for pve yes 100%

Dojohoda · September 2022

[wordsalad]
Damage dealers who want to do the highest possible damage tend to gravitate toward the best sets. Players choices of sets can be seen at eso logs by visiting the data at any trial boss and viewing the sets worn by the damage dealers. One can view sets used in the past by selecting an older unpdate.

If one is willingly participating in an advanced group of players aiming for certain achievements, then one would want to wear the best possible sets, so variations are no longer an issue as the sets are more tools than entertainment.

In other grouped situations, a player can wear sets that are suitable for getting the job done within reasonable parameters in respect to being in a group with roles and balanced with one's expectations of enjoying the game.

As always, solo players can wear what they want.
[/wordsalad]

Trundik · September 2022

imo hybridization isn't about removing diversity. Spreedsheeting and elityzm is about it (meta nazis). Hybridization is about resources management and diversity.

BUT

Nerfing all around to the point where Pillar of Nirn is better than any arena set is about bad decisions done. Perhaps its not something new, because to keep deversity u must keep old content in balance with new one.

Where is changes to elf bane, cruel flurry, oblivion foe? Where is changes to everything linked to dots duration? There is none. And I can't see it in upcoming patch notes. Maybe lets just forget about this old stuff, bc its old and you won't sell it anymore.

SerafinaWaterstar · September 2022

Loathe the implementation.

This is probably me being very dense, but how do you sustain magicka if using weapons and not staves?

But then I find meta-chasing incredibly dull & detrimental to the game. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

Remathilis · September 2022

Trundik wrote: »

imo hybridization isn't about removing diversity. Spreedsheeting and elityzm is about it (meta nazis). Hybridization is about resources management and diversity.

BUT

Nerfing all around to the point where Pillar of Nirn is better than any arena set is about bad decisions done. Perhaps its not something new, because to keep deversity u must keep old content in balance with new one.

Where is changes to elf bane, cruel flurry, oblivion foe? Where is changes to everything linked to dots duration? There is none. And I can't see it in upcoming patch notes. Maybe lets just forget about this old stuff, bc its old and you won't sell it anymore.

If procs have become the best way to chase damage, why aren't more proc sets viable? Pillar is great for bleed and whorl for ice, but why aren't DKs wearing Red Mountain? It should be as good, if not better, than pillar in theory, but clearly ZoS isn't interested in making sets work for specific builds, so a natural pairing like DK and RM isn't as good as ice and bleed sets.

I want more sets that have synergy with certain classes. I'm bored of the same six sets being meta on every class regardless of stam or msg. I want fire and poison sets for DKs, lightning for sorcs, ice for warden, disease and oblivion for necros, etc. Or arena weapons that enhance class skills like a Summoner staff for pets or a bow that enhances assassin skills. I want more than just copy/pasted builds for all roles. Outside of a few exceptions (EC for necros or war maiden for templars) every class with the same sets is boring.

Trundik · September 2022

If procs have become the best way to chase damage, why aren't more proc sets viable? Pillar is great for bleed and whorl for ice, but why aren't DKs wearing Red Mountain? It should be as good, if not better, than pillar in theory, but clearly ZoS isn't interested in making sets work for specific builds,

I think its because RM is overland set and that explains everything with only one exception - mother sorrow (now order wrath is better). But agree, building 4-1-1-4 with this and siroria could be fun, if only RM wouldn't be so much behind in damage than current meta sets. For me rly there is only one visible reason, why order wrath for example hitting so high being crafted in same time - they sold it as part of High Isle. Again, in that matrix they can't sell RM another time. But, well, they could at least make some diversity in things they selling... Not adding something stronger, but something different each time. Why they need damage nerf you think? Answer is simple: that progression with adding each time stronger items for new expansions to sell them just have hit the roof. There was no space upper to grow for some reason. Probably pvp one or 4 man content. And they did a loop. They afraid that if there will be nothing stronger than current meta ppl won't buy new dlcs.

Everest_Lionheart · September 2022

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Loathe the implementation.

This is probably me being very dense, but how do you sustain magicka if using weapons and not staves?

But then I find meta-chasing incredibly dull & detrimental to the game. Variety is the spice of life, after all.

Hybridized skills as well. Most mag are running blade cloak and trap, the rest is stam morphs of class skills which hit harder than their mag counterparts like venom claw and noxious breath on DK or detonating siphon and skeletal archer on Necro. Sustain is so good we can wear medium armor and push damage even higher.

What’s interesting though is there are non meta ways to get the job done and hit 5-10% less but the endgame community gate keeps itself to a small portion of sets available that can still do adequate DPS to get the job done. In my opinion following the meta is the path of least resistance for most players who don’t want to put in the time to try other things. That’s fair though, I just wish more raid leads were a bit more open minded to things outside the meta.

taugrim · September 2022

I love hybridization. It opens up morphs that previously scaled poorly depending on whether you were Stamina&WD or Magicka&SD. I can try out a lot of different skills for different playstyles.

Optimization is going to exist regardless whether hybridization exists or not.