Is Hybridization removing our build diversity ?

Nathyiel

I had this strange idea while reading some post here : What if the consequence of Hybridization was to reduce our build diversity instead of adding more option ?

Hybridization was implemented with the idea to be able to mix Mag and Stam skill/weapon, to give more choice.

What is the result ?
pure build can't compete. Magsorc is dead ? Stamsorc too ? Time for the perfect Sorcerer with the best of both world.
I take the Sorc example because it's my main but it will be true with all class. Just use whatever is the best.

What will be the consequence ?
Weapon choice will be flavor.
Race with hybrid passive will out perform over pure Magicka/Stamina race.
"Class identity" will suffer ever more. Warden will be a teddy bear trainer in Elsa cosplay.

More seriously, Dev already start to buff skill for specific weapon (Winter's Revenge with a Destruction Staff).

I'm curious about this dev choice and what is planned for next chapter ?

Lykeion

For pve, yes. The hybridization has led to the fact that in almost any case, there is only one best build for a given version, and then everyone runs to use it. Nowadays, mag dps need to wield daggers and vMA greatswords if they want to deal good damage, and even wear Coral Riptide instead of BM. How magical

However, this is not necessarily a bad thing. The hybridization makes builds simpler, which makes it easier for newcomers to get started and switch between different styles. IMO it just need more observation

Nathyiel

It's an interesting choice from the Dev team as it take a path opposite to most other big mmo with very strict distinct class/race/jobs.

But it need to be look at closely to keep things interesting. And they have to keep in mind that outside of PvE and PvP, there's a lot of players that are more attracted by the RPG part of the game and will do dungeon and BG with non meta build.

Astin_nds

Nathyiel wrote: »

I had this strange idea while reading some post here : What if the consequence of Hybridization was to reduce our build diversity instead of adding more option ?

Hybridization was implemented with the idea to be able to mix Mag and Stam skill/weapon, to give more choice.

What is the result ?
pure build can't compete. Magsorc is dead ? Stamsorc too ? Time for the perfect Sorcerer with the best of both world.
I take the Sorc example because it's my main but it will be true with all class. Just use whatever is the best.

What will be the consequence ?
Weapon choice will be flavor.
Race with hybrid passive will out perform over pure Magicka/Stamina race.
"Class identity" will suffer ever more. Warden will be a teddy bear trainer in Elsa cosplay.

More seriously, Dev already start to buff skill for specific weapon (Winter's Revenge with a Destruction Staff).

I'm curious about this dev choice and what is planned for next chapter ?

It's not bad if it's done correctly and although it's somewhat regular on the live server I think it's going to make everything worse in this update and really it's only going to hurt and limit us a lot because it's getting worse and poorly planned
however, stamina constructions are very viable and magickas are not, because hybridization favors stamina better since it is the resource to block, protect yourself, etc, run...
magicka is practically behind with this update it is even more staminacroll online

Jazraena

I would rather say hybridization highlights balance disparities already there, and naturally people gravitate to stronger options.

ThirdEye_PULSE

Yeah... ive noticed that there used to be strengths and weaknesses to choosing either mag or stam dps. You would get something in exchange for the loss of something. Like ranged dps at the loss of ability to dodgeroll consistently. There used to be a clear pro and con.

Thats pretty much gone with hybridization... especially in pvp ive noticed. Often, one is clearly the better choice then the other. Take DK for instance. StamDK is great but you get to a point with hybridization that your using so many magicka skills that you question "'why am i playing the stamina version"?

If you ever listen to DeltiasGaming tier lists for pvp he says that over and over now for class breakdowns. Like yeah, why would you play stam version when mag version has the same toolkit and does it better?

Now that both versions of a class has access to all the same abilities with little or no downside, one is almost always clearly superior to the other and its hard to justify playing the version that isnt as good since they both get access to the same abilities.

You can even get to the point where it doesnt even make sense to refer to a class as either stam or mag with hybridization. At that point you realize that although hybridization seemingly has offered many more options and possibilities, it also lowered the choices in class and playstyle from 12 in the game to just 6.

Cirantille

The diversity and class identity are long gone. Whether PvE or PvP there are only 1-2 sets, mythics (possibly the newest ones) for each patches that give you optimal performance. All classes feel samey with different colours for similar skills.

I wish each class had something unique. Like the sorc having extra bar back in the day. They could add something regarding a holy light to templar or warden taming animals or commanding extra natural effects etc.

Asdara

Hybridization is the path to a no-class system, now they have to go all the way and remove class limitation or fail miserably and loose all flavor in the game.

ThirdEye_PULSE

Cirantille wrote: »

The diversity and class identity are long gone. Whether PvE or PvP there are only 1-2 sets, mythics (possibly the newest ones) for each patches that give you optimal performance. All classes feel samey with different colours for similar skills.

I wish each class had something unique. Like the sorc having extra bar back in the day. They could add something regarding a holy light to templar or warden taming animals or commanding extra natural effects etc.

When i look back several years and compare the game as it was to how it is now it makes me feel like an old man pondering his days as a young person.

"Those were the good ole days and i didnt even know it". I suppose we never do realize in the moment when we have it good.

I wonder if they will ever make a classic ESO like they did with WoW or Runescape. I would consider going to an older version of ESO... perhaps.

Lack of diversity and feeling unique playing a class has slowly started killing my joy for the game. Starting to longingly look at other MMOs with like 20 classes that are all super unique and my mouth starts watering.

"Look at all those choices dear god would you just look at it!".

Tis truly the land of Opportunity on the other side. The grass does look greener. Whereas here ZOS is like "you get no choices, Comrade. You will eat rock and you will like rock."

Jazraena

Asdara wrote: »

Hybridization is the path to a no-class system, now they have to go all the way and remove class limitation or fail miserably and loose all flavor in the game.

I certainly wouldn't mind if done right.

But there's a rocky balancing road ahead for that to be done right.

Sandman929

What removes build diversity is a handful of sets that are miles better than a mountain of crap.

ToRelax

Letting every build use every skill similarly well leads to players who restrict themselves to just some of them underperforming - unless skills were standardized to such a degree that a build from a reasonably large subset, like just magicka skills, still works practically the same as any other.

At this point, there are lots of similarities between stamina and magicka skill sets, but still a few differences, especially defensively. There also are very limited amounts of certain kinds of skills, such as HoTs or delayed burst, with "hybrids" being able to combine them. With a single build using for example Curse and Crystal Weapon similarly well, it becomes impossible to balance them for pure magicka or stamina builds which use just one of them.

Hybridizing stats to make hybrids viable isn't a bad thing at all. It just went way too far.
It could be saved relatively easily I think, since weapon/spell damage is now so much higher compared to max stamina/magicka than it used to be: If all abilities scaling off offensive stats were fixed to either max stamina or max magicka scaling, while weapon/spell damage remains exactly the same, then the power of hybrids could actually be fine tuned via the damage scaling of max stamina/magicka.
Unfortunately, something like this doesn't seem terribly likely from the same devs who went through with the hybridization changes we already got. But, you never know.

prof_doom

It increases the number of potential builds, at the cost of decreasing the number of meta builds.

Oakenaxe

Sandman929 wrote: »

What removes build diversity is a handful of sets that are miles better than a mountain of crap.

This. At first, I wasn't attracted at all to hybridization, as it felt very weird and counter-intuitive (this game changed so much afterall), but after a while I adapted, and now I like it! However, even with a wider variety of skills to choose, we are still hostages of certain procs/sets. This game has so many sets that they have to keep coming up with more and more powerful stuff in order to sell them. I wish they would slow down on the release of new sets and focus more on balancing the existing stuff. Rethink some procs and start balancing PvE and PvP differently. Less RNG and more playing.

Amottica

I would suggest build diversity is an issue regardless. Since we are not restricted to class-specific skills, and many skills are available to all that are basically must-use skills for high-level DPS the class flavor has already been an issue.

The changes made this past year do have an additional effect but most of the limited build diversity has been part of the core design of the game.

IAmIcehouse

Hybridization was something that was really cool when it first came out but it really had a negative impact on build diversity. It was fun, because now stam based specs can run class spammables or class heals. Mag toons can run more easily run Dual wield, can run Medium armor, etc. But it basically just cut the list of specs you play in half. There's no "magcro" vs "stamcro" or "magplar" vs "stamplar". It's just Necro and templar.

It opened up some new build ideas but ultimately killed diversity in specs. That all said, I think it's still a net-positive for the game. Stam specs back in the day all played the same. Stamcro, stamden, stamsorc... all just dizzy swinging... I just think there were better alternatives to hybridization... giving classes viable spammables. And stam was meta. Hybridization had the unintended consequence of finally flipping to a mag-meta, which is great, because playing mag classes feels like you're actually playing a different class, since stam never really had the best access to their own class-skills, since most are mag based.

Like I said, I think it's a net positive, but I really don't know how I feel about it. It may just be that it's refreshing to see a change.

OBJnoob

You can play however you want and be successful in 75%+ of the game. It was true before and it's true now. If you want to be the very best DPS, healer, or tank then there is no build diversity. It was true before and its true now. It doesn't matter how many gear sets or abilities people have access to... Someone is going to find the best combination and everyone else will quickly emulate them.

Ksariyu

Still waiting for someone to showcase this build diversity that supposedly existed before the hybrid changes. Try though I might, I haven't been able to find it myself. Before, just like now, all the guides and guilds would direct you towards a singular build that's best for each class and encounter. Sure, there may have been a split between Mag and Stam DPS before; all the difference there was you either used Unstable Wall, a ten-second mid-sized AoE, or Endless Hail, a ten-second mid-sized AoE. Wow, big diversity. . .

At the end of the day, it's the core elements of the game's combat that makes the meta so restrictive and stale. LA weaving + the GCD ensures that everyone in endgame is casting skills at the same rate, in the same pattern. LA > Buff, LA > Dot, LA > Spam till your buffs run out, repeat. That basic formula was the same for every single DPS build, from MagDK to StamCro. The same principle applies to why tanks and healers have even MORE restrictive builds than DPS; the mechanics of the game shove those roles into such a small corner that there's nothing else they can provide that makes up for what they lose by not going meta.

The big thing that the hybrid changes did was highlight just how meaningless a lot of the game's morphs were. Class skills in particular often were just a matter of what resource you used determining which morph you picked. There was no choice. So the way I see it, now the devs have to go through and try to make each morph actually worth picking on its own, which will legitimately increase the choices available for each build, thus drastically increasing diversity.

Necrotech_Master

OBJnoob wrote: »

You can play however you want and be successful in 75%+ of the game. It was true before and it's true now. If you want to be the very best DPS, healer, or tank then there is no build diversity. It was true before and its true now. It doesn't matter how many gear sets or abilities people have access to... Someone is going to find the best combination and everyone else will quickly emulate them.

this

i definitely dont play meta builds, and i still have toons that are focused on mag or stam

while dmg has been more hybridized, sustain/recovery has not

my stamplar for example has almost 10k more max stam than max mag and double the stam recovery, i cannot sustain a mag-focused rotation, but i can at least add a few mag skills in my build and know that they will still be just as effective as if i was playing a mag focused build

DrSlaughtr

Meta is just the path of least resistance, and if you're pushing a HM trial (or even some HM dungeons) you want every advantage because no one likes wiping over and over and over and over because the damage isn't high enough or the tank isn't supplying the right buffs and managing the bosses or the healers aren't supplying their specific buffs and keeping everyone living.

You can look at every multiplayer game and almost all of them will have some kind of meta. That doesn't mean you have to run it. It just means you are taking a harder path with that content, and that harder path might be more frustrating than the annoyance of running the latest and greatest setup.

Elsonso

One of my core disagreements with their "hybridization" is that it feels like homogenization. Homogenization reduces build diversity, except at the cosmetic level.

francesinhalover

I said it and ill say it again hibridization is fine. But Not on weapon skill lines.

Nathyiel

Hybridization is about half-stam half-mag. It's more like add stam skill in mag build or the contrary.

Since it let us choose between stam or mag morph, we will always use the one that give more damage, more utility or simply avoid a clunky design.

And it favor stam build.
Mag build have to keep stam for dodge and block because even with hybridization, they won't have the stamina to use too much Stam skill.
Stam build Magicka also come back from Magicka return on skill and passive.

kalunte

the game is deeply unbalanced but what removes class identity and build diversity are the players chasing for "the best in most situations" on top of everything else.

i know for trying it and watching things all over that you can manage any build to be something like 90% as efficient as the best in one particular field and in pve that will mean top scores and trifectas but not clears of hardest content.

in PvP it will be more difficult since you may reach the burst potential of a cheesy build with many setups but cheeses will outperform vcastly because they will have health/heal/resist and potentially more burst or sustain dmg which will drive in a much more wider gap.

anyway, the lack of identity sucks to my eyes. all can be good, but i'd prefere magicka to use staffs or wands like knowledgers, staminas to use martial weapons and so on.

Everest_Lionheart

Ksariyu wrote: »

Still waiting for someone to showcase this build diversity that supposedly existed before the hybrid changes. Try though I might, I haven't been able to find it myself. Before, just like now, all the guides and guilds would direct you towards a singular build that's best for each class and encounter. Sure, there may have been a split between Mag and Stam DPS before; all the difference there was you either used Unstable Wall, a ten-second mid-sized AoE, or Endless Hail, a ten-second mid-sized AoE. Wow, big diversity. . .

At the end of the day, it's the core elements of the game's combat that makes the meta so restrictive and stale. LA weaving + the GCD ensures that everyone in endgame is casting skills at the same rate, in the same pattern. LA > Buff, LA > Dot, LA > Spam till your buffs run out, repeat. That basic formula was the same for every single DPS build, from MagDK to StamCro. The same principle applies to why tanks and healers have even MORE restrictive builds than DPS; the mechanics of the game shove those roles into such a small corner that there's nothing else they can provide that makes up for what they lose by not going meta.

The big thing that the hybrid changes did was highlight just how meaningless a lot of the game's morphs were. Class skills in particular often were just a matter of what resource you used determining which morph you picked. There was no choice. So the way I see it, now the devs have to go through and try to make each morph actually worth picking on its own, which will legitimately increase the choices available for each build, thus drastically increasing diversity.

Before they nerfed crit damage you could get there with a variety of sets before. Even stam toons could run vMA staff backbar and still be within 3-4% of top end numbers. You could run double 2H weapons and still be within a few percentage points of top end numbers.

You could run weapons expert CP and buff LA in combination with vMA staff and undaunted infiltrator/unweaver along side crushing/elemental weapon and still be within a few percentage points of the meta builds.

Changes to vMA 2H shifted the meta for backbars and made everything the same. Because crit dmg was capped the meta became raw damage and crit percentage. Which before all the changes you could still spec into before but with all the crit damage sources in the game pre nerf why would you?

That was the design error from the beginning which they used a heavy handed nerf to control without knowing there were other ways to achieve the same damage. Hybridization only enhanced the raw damage. The skill divertsity was already long gone. There is also no class or racial identity.

As a DPS you are either high elf or dark elf. There is zero reason to play any other race. When they changed cut percentage to crit damage ore crit nerf everyone was Khajiit, no reason to play anything else. The nerf came, the race is gutted. Orc still OK for stam, Breton OK for beginners, imperial OK all around race locked behind a paywall.

Class identity is gone because constant tinkering has shifted the meta every couple of month towards a new class and the nerf/buff cycle means your great class this year will be bottom of the heap next year, or maybe even sooner than that. This makes all the classes feel vanilla. It why we all choose the same weapon, world and guild skills to fill out our rotations, so many class skills to choose from and maybe 1 or 2 are useable.

That’s what hybridization amounted to, same vanilla ice cream, different packaging.

LukosCreyden

I like hybridization.
The meta has always been about optimization; it has always been a case of "use these sets and these skills to achieve maximum efficiency in your role". It is not diverse, but it is the very nature of what a meta is.

People will always go for the optimal set up when pushing for numbers. Aka, people playing the meta will always have very similar builds, regardless of if we had hybridization, no hybridization, or even an open skill line system where every character can access anything.

With hybridization, people who are not currently playing hardcore pve, pvp, or are less worried about the meta in general have more skills to choose between that suit their playstyle or character theme without gimping themselves too much.

I can play my Warden character using 2H and Destro, or DW and bow or some other combination and still put out good damage whilst playing in a way I enjoy.

There will always be a meta. The meta will always be very specific and unvaried. At least with hybridization, everything else IS more varied and interesting.

IZZEFlameLash

Imo, it is not the hybridization doing it. It is more of ZOS constantly bringing BiS sets with new DLCs that basically completely eclipse previous sets by fairly large margin either through set bonuses themselves or heavy handed nerfs to skills and previous sets. And there are just way too many sets with bizzare conditions and way too many trash sets and skills.

Rimskjegg

Speking from a purely PvE point of view, I don't understand the complaints that hybridization hurts build diversity because you "need" greatsword and daggers. It's as if nobody plays vAS or any content where being ranged lets you do damage when melee setups have to first mind mechanics and only then get into damage range. I do agree that the DPS nerfs in U35 pushes you to follow the meta more closely but I also think the meta is more flexible than people give it credit for. Fights are different enough that I basically have a slightly different setup for each boss fight in most trials. Which is why I don't get the complaints that only 1-2 sets are meta either. Sure there's a meta for each fight but collecting lots of sets is really worth it IMO.
I learn really slowly so I'm pretty conservative about change but hybridization was a good change imo.

danno8

Oakenaxe wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

What removes build diversity is a handful of sets that are miles better than a mountain of crap.

This. At first, I wasn't attracted at all to hybridization, as it felt very weird and counter-intuitive (this game changed so much afterall), but after a while I adapted, and now I like it! However, even with a wider variety of skills to choose, we are still hostages of certain procs/sets. This game has so many sets that they have to keep coming up with more and more powerful stuff in order to sell them. I wish they would slow down on the release of new sets and focus more on balancing the existing stuff. Rethink some procs and start balancing PvE and PvP differently. Less RNG and more playing.

It was funny seeing every single PTS build using the same two sets +mythic for parsing. Nirn, Reliquen and Kilt with some +crit helm was all that was used.

Sad that build diversity is so limited, even between classes, that the best results are unanimous use of the same exact sets.

Stx

Hybridization does reduce build diversity, and I said as much when they were proposing the big changes. Most people disagreed, but its pretty clear to see. Stamina templar basically doesn't exist anymore, same for magicka sorcerer.

The only demographic of players where Hybridization actually increased build diversity is the group that doesn't care about performance, and just makes fun builds to play overland content with or normal mode content.

Since fun off meta builds were already possible before the Hybridization, I would say the negative impact far outweighs the positives.

Nathyiel

Stx wrote: »

The only demographic of players where Hybridization actually increased build diversity is the group that doesn't care about performance, and just makes fun builds to play overland content with or normal mode content.

Since fun off meta builds were already possible before the Hybridization, I would say the negative impact far outweighs the positives.

I aggree completely. they don't care about Hybridization as they use what ever skill they want to use