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What does a casual player do?
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Jaimeh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭An old-time player doesn't necessarily imply a veteran player; someone might have played the game since Beta but have done so only casually, whereas veteran players are usually skilled in combat and mechanics, and engage with the more challenging aspects of the game. As to what makes a casual player, I think this is not doing endgame raiding (HMs, trifectas, score), or competitive PvP'ing, or solo content score-pushing, and prefer to do easier group content, questing, dailies, RP, and generally less combat-intensive content. That would be my guess as to whom ZOS considers casual players, and I also do think they are the majority of players, hence why ZOS likes to focus on them. New players are people who have recently bought the game, and again it's logical that ZOS wants to cater to them as well, because it's in their interests to keep these players playing, and potentially make them long-term customers.1 -
vibeborn✭✭✭✭✭I guess I would be considered a casual player. I only very rarely venture into trials or vet DLC dungeons and I don't have a grip on PvP.
These days I mostly do crafting dailies, and I like to dig up treasure maps. I will also from time to time do a quest, but not so much these days0 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AlanTheStarLord wrote: »
Let's see...every pvp event, some of the wonderful pvp players come to the forum to explain how much fun they will be having while ganking pve players attempting pvp. Warms the heart hearing how they plan to use all the AP/telvar they're going to score off the unprepared pvp noobs. Hearing they found the best spots to, how shall I say, maximize the speedy kill without the danger of the pver attempting to retaliate. Like when they found the door/loading exploit when turning in a quest.
You know, all the fun things a new unskilled player wants to hear that will make them super eager to try pvp. /sarcasm
I've been to Cyrodiil, just exploring. And my experiences there and in IC make me avoid pvp like it is the return of the Bubonic Plague on steroids. I play this game for fun and enjoyment. Spending time respawning for the 6th time [not fun or enjoyable] because I wanted to use a crafting station in IC and a rather competitive pvper was having his own idea of fun killing my character over and over really put paid to any slight interest I might have had in pvp.9 -
robwolf666✭✭✭✭✭
✭5 years into ESO, havent set foot into pvp or trials.
Finished cadwels gold, maxed crafts and traits, collecting motifs, leveling companions, collecting mythics.
Same here.
Solo PvE questing and story is my main interest. (I come from Skyrim and Oblivion fandom)
Plus I'll do anything if it can be played/done solo.
I did PvP for around a year a long time ago, but when the guild I was in effectively disbanded within a week, I (a) never joined another guild, and (b) never played PvP again (easily 4/5 years now) - mostly because I never liked it and only did it because it's what the guild was doing.
The only time I do something in a group is if I stumble upon one doing a WB etc - I never join an organised group.2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlanTheStarLord wrote: »
I don't know if it's their reason, but for me - I've done PvP in the past. Just not in this game. I've done it enough (and interacted with/observed enough of the "toxic"-type PvPers in other games and on their forums) to know 100% that I've no desire to ever again touch it in any game. It doesn't matter that the balance or mechanics might be a bit different in Game A or Game B, it's the whole concept/genre in general that I have no care for. The specific details don't make a difference.
I'm not a terribly competitive person (PvP or PvE, I've never measured my DPS in anything), I think that 'trash talk'/etc is offensive (not a "fun part of the experience"), etc. I feel the same way about IRL sports/etc - in gym class in the 80's, I avoided the team sports whenever I had the option. There is nothing about PvP that interests or entertains me, and there is no bribe or reward a dev can give that would get me to participate anymore. /shrug
(I think back to some of the arguments when I played WoW, PvPers saying that it was much more interesting/a "real game" compared to PvE because the scripted PvE encounters were just 'repetitive' and 'the same', while PvP interactions with players were 'always different'. Personally I found PvP interactions to be all the same - the same builds, hitting you with the same CC/stun/execute, the utterly repetitive cycle of die/respawn/run back to the fight/die/repeat. So boring & tedious.)
(played Unreal Tournament back in the day; played battlegrounds in WoW up to around Rank... 9?, stuck my nose into things like The Division's Dark Zone or the instanced PvP in Neverwinter or Secret World to see if it was like I remembered, etc. UT was probably the least awful, because at least that didn't have garbage like levels/builds/equipment making it even more imbalanced. PvP in loot & level games is just terrible.)7 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »AlanTheStarLord wrote: »
I don't know if it's their reason, but for me - I've done PvP in the past. Just not in this game. I've done it enough (and interacted with/observed enough of the "toxic"-type PvPers in other games and on their forums) to know 100% that I've no desire to ever again touch it in any game. It doesn't matter that the balance or mechanics might be a bit different in Game A or Game B, it's the whole concept/genre in general that I have no care for. The specific details don't make a difference.
I'm not a terribly competitive person (PvP or PvE, I've never measured my DPS in anything), I think that 'trash talk'/etc is offensive (not a "fun part of the experience"), etc. I feel the same way about IRL sports/etc - in gym class in the 80's, I avoided the team sports whenever I had the option. There is nothing about PvP that interests or entertains me, and there is no bribe or reward a dev can give that would get me to participate anymore. /shrug
(I think back to some of the arguments when I played WoW, PvPers saying that it was much more interesting/a "real game" compared to PvE because the scripted PvE encounters were just 'repetitive' and 'the same', while PvP interactions with players were 'always different'. Personally I found PvP interactions to be all the same - the same builds, hitting you with the same CC/stun/execute, the utterly repetitive cycle of die/respawn/run back to the fight/die/repeat. So boring & tedious.)
All of this. Exactly.
______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....1 -
SianTamzin✭✭✭Been playing for many years and I'd still class myself as a casual player. I mainly stick to doing questing, I'll do a normal dungeon every now and again for fun or if the event rewards interest me. I rarely go in PVP zones but when I do it's usually out of boredom.1 -
Kingsindarkness✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
... And also it won't happen. Why? It will drive all the pvp players off while not replacing them. the development time which would be at least 6-8 months conservatively speaking. Meaning no new content and that doesn't make them money. Beyond that they would have a lot to figure out creatively and how to tie that in to everything which is more development time.
Not really...PVP could use the Arena system, they could have everything from 1v1 to 5v5 depending on the drops and payout that could be very popular and honestly when is the last time you actually saw new PVP content? So 6-8 months would really be nothing. And you really wouldn't just stop PVP anyway not until you are ready to replace it...
All in all this could easily be done and thinking about...it could very well likely happen.Edited by Kingsindarkness on September 19, 2022 6:50PM0 -
Xeres14✭✭✭I am casual. Sometimes I'm filthy. I don't have any expansions (yet) - been playing off and on since 2014. More off TBH. I log in, run around doing quests, maybe a dungeon if I feel up to grouping. For the moment ESO has my interest again. It has in the past, but my interest has quickly fallen off each time I've reinstalled.
So ZOS wants to focus on me, as a casual player, do they? Probably not a good idea in my case. Actually, not a good idea in any case. So, ZOS, listen to me, as a casual player. I am not the person who has logged in for the last 8 years playing your game. I've uninstalled this game quite often with my last hiatus being almost 2 years I think. But I uninstalled casually. In order for you to keep me you're going to have to rework your game completely, and you're not doing that. Nor should you. I shouldn't be your target audience. Your LOYAL fanbase should be.
It's no bother for me to uninstall. It sure is for those who've grinded, and did the latest content at the toughest difficulty, and have all your expansions, and bought crowns and the like. I speak from experience. My game was WoW. They catered to casual gamers (which I was NOT one over there) and look at how far they've fallen.
ZOS, I don't need training wheels. UO was my first MMO. You sank or swam there. I'm a good swimmer these days.Edited by Xeres14 on September 19, 2022 8:28PM1 -
Hearing about what casual players do is fascinating to me, because they are ALL things that I love to do, too: fashion, collection, house decorating, quests.
The thing is, almost all of those experiences are better (at least to me) in single player games. Maybe I'm just spoiled. When the endgame/balance/constant meta shifting became too much for me to bother with, I very briefly tried to readjust and played the game casually... and very quickly quit in favor of a new mod loadout of Skyrim.
I know that there are some well written quests in earlier ESO, but the limitation of a shared MMO environment (at least in ESO) means that practically all of the dialogue options are info dumps that don't feed the illusion of choice that single player games often give. The environment and characters are more static, it is way harder to feel immersed, the scope and order of events is harder for the game to manage for multiple players so you don't really feel the same level of impact. Housing is cool! It's too bad it costs an arm and a leg to do anything with it, and it's also too bad that that item limits are laughable for larger houses. I ended up being more satisfied browsing through player homes at nexus and picking my favorite than I do trying to make something after spending more money that I'd like to admit in ESO.
Same thing with clothing. There are a lot of options, but they all require the world's ugliest shoulder pieces and the best looking pieces require a lot of farming or real money. I don't think there's a single motif that beats any of my favorite player clothing/armor mods for Skyrim.
The only appeal of ESO over a single player Elderscrolls game, to me, is the multiplayer aspect. Which means PvP dungeons (limiting the appeal to Vet since there's no difficulty control) you run with other players that require collaboration and planning.
I mean, I get why people play casual. I do. I play casual ALL of the time. But unless you're into online trading and spreadsheet management, it just blows my mind that any casual player would prefer something like ESO over other single player experiences that better cater to those preferences. I think it might be the lifespan of it that confuses me too - I could play casually through quests for a bit but doing it for years seems unthinkable to me!
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Reaver999✭✭✭I have been playing since 2017. I am also probably considered a casual player even though I play several hours a day. I quest some, but mostly I farm and sell, Cyrodiil, maybe a few bgs, daily writs, things like that. I play everything, except veteran trials because of the parsing and I have nerve damage in my hands. I used to worry and be upset about all the changes, but ultimately I adjust and have found that it never really is as big of a deal as some make it out to be. I wish the changes were not so frequent as it keeps me from really investing in golding out gear, but that's not a big deal either. I think those competing for leaderboards and real sweaty progressions or ultra sweat PvP is what sets players apart from "casual" players. A group of casual players can complete a veteran trial because they just want gear or the completion, but the sweaties go for achievements and leaderboards so they demand more of their groups...that kind of thing.0
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Eiregirl✭✭✭Just my opinion.
Defining a casual or even a hardcore player cannot be done with a single brushstroke.
In different games I have played over the years I have seen developers and other players define casuals and hardcore players differently based on everything from the amount of time they play the game to what content they do within the game. Some defined a hardcore player as someone who mainly logs in to do the hardest content in the game (as they see it) and a casual as someone who just logs in to pick flowers and do a quest or two. Others look at the person logging in to do hard content as a casual because they are only logged on for an hour or two a week while the flower picker is hardcore because they log on for an hour or two a day.
To me, you are a “player” if you play the game regularly and enjoy playing the game otherwise you’re just a “fly by nighter” who might log in this week or next month. IMO it does not matter what you do in the game but whether or not you enjoy what you do in the game and if you enjoy what you do then you will spend the time to do it and do it well.
There are other ways people want to define what casual and hardcore players are but if you log in and enjoy playing the game and doing things in the game that you like doing what does it matter how anyone defines it?
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Kingsindarkness✭✭✭✭✭I think maybe this should be "what do non..raiders/PVP players do?"
Just seems like that is the group of people that is being targeted...1 -
Ye_Olde_Crowe✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Well, I basically prefer SP games as well (and have played and loved all SP ES games, bar the mobile ones), but as I am totally averse to using unofficial addons in games, ESO‘s one huge advantage (for me) over pure SP games is not the MMO part. In fact, it‘s the only MMORPG I remained faithful to. No, for me its advantage is the constant influx of new content.AuraoftheAzureSea wrote: »(…)it just blows my mind that any casual player would prefer something like ESO over other single player experiences that better cater to those preferences. I think it might be the lifespan of it that confuses me too - I could play casually through quests for a bit but doing it for years seems unthinkable to me!
Morrowind had three official addons, for example, while there‘s new ESO stuff 4x a year. And so I have played ESO like, well, forever, with the occasional break for one or the other 20-hours-with-all-additional-content-packs type game like, say, Bioshock Infinite.
PC EU.
=primarily PvH (Player vs. House)=2 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭AuraoftheAzureSea wrote: »Hearing about what casual players do is fascinating to me, because they are ALL things that I love to do, too: fashion, collection, house decorating, quests.
The thing is, almost all of those experiences are better (at least to me) in single player games. Maybe I'm just spoiled. When the endgame/balance/constant meta shifting became too much for me to bother with, I very briefly tried to readjust and played the game casually... and very quickly quit in favor of a new mod loadout of Skyrim.
I know that there are some well written quests in earlier ESO, but the limitation of a shared MMO environment (at least in ESO) means that practically all of the dialogue options are info dumps that don't feed the illusion of choice that single player games often give. The environment and characters are more static, it is way harder to feel immersed, the scope and order of events is harder for the game to manage for multiple players so you don't really feel the same level of impact. Housing is cool! It's too bad it costs an arm and a leg to do anything with it, and it's also too bad that that item limits are laughable for larger houses. I ended up being more satisfied browsing through player homes at nexus and picking my favorite than I do trying to make something after spending more money that I'd like to admit in ESO.
Same thing with clothing. There are a lot of options, but they all require the world's ugliest shoulder pieces and the best looking pieces require a lot of farming or real money. I don't think there's a single motif that beats any of my favorite player clothing/armor mods for Skyrim.
The only appeal of ESO over a single player Elderscrolls game, to me, is the multiplayer aspect. Which means PvP dungeons (limiting the appeal to Vet since there's no difficulty control) you run with other players that require collaboration and planning.
I mean, I get why people play casual. I do. I play casual ALL of the time. But unless you're into online trading and spreadsheet management, it just blows my mind that any casual player would prefer something like ESO over other single player experiences that better cater to those preferences. I think it might be the lifespan of it that confuses me too - I could play casually through quests for a bit but doing it for years seems unthinkable to me!
I absolutely agree with you. I also wanted to write that it surprises me how unpretentious the "casual" player in the ESO is. Questing is much better in any other singles project. ESO questing has no gameplay or choice, and is more like a visual novel. There are games where housing is much better, like the Sims. There are also MMOs based on crafting and all sorts of activities such as fishing. To play ESO as a full fledged RPG is to fool yourself.
But ESO is a game about content. PvE is the best side and core of this game, if not the best PvE on the market in general today. PvP would also have every chance of being the best among all MMOs, if it weren't for the balance and lags that didn't spoil it.PC/EU1 -
TaSheen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AuraoftheAzureSea wrote: »
The only appeal of ESO over a single player Elderscrolls game, to me, is the multiplayer aspect. Which means PvP dungeons (limiting the appeal to Vet since there's no difficulty control) you run with other players that require collaboration and planning.
I mean, I get why people play casual. I do. I play casual ALL of the time. But unless you're into online trading and spreadsheet management, it just blows my mind that any casual player would prefer something like ESO over other single player experiences that better cater to those preferences. I think it might be the lifespan of it that confuses me too - I could play casually through quests for a bit but doing it for years seems unthinkable to me!
I don't necessarily prefer ESO to Oblivion or Skyrim (both of which I still play). But having thousands of hours in a couple of SP ES games eventually means that I'm replaying the same stuff over and over and over ad infinitum ad nauseam. So I mixed it up with ESO, because unlike ES games with player produced mods for expanding content (which eventually becomes pretty much the same as replaying the vanilla games), ESO as an MMO is non-static. I like that too. And should I still be alive and able to play games when or if Bethesda gets around to TES VI, I'll be happy to return to a single-player gaming experience (unless it's something I can't do, like VR; or something I think is going to not be a good final experience in TES gaming).
And even at that, I'll still play ESO if it's still going!______________________________________________________
"But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West
PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....4 -
I don't necessarily prefer ESO to Oblivion or Skyrim (both of which I still play). But having thousands of hours in a couple of SP ES games eventually means that I'm replaying the same stuff over and over and over ad infinitum ad nauseam. So I mixed it up with ESO, because unlike ES games with player produced mods for expanding content (which eventually becomes pretty much the same as replaying the vanilla games), ESO as an MMO is non-static. I like that too. And should I still be alive and able to play games when or if Bethesda gets around to TES VI, I'll be happy to return to a single-player gaming experience (unless it's something I can't do, like VR; or something I think is going to not be a good final experience in TES gaming).
And even at that, I'll still play ESO if it's still going!
It's kinda funny 'cause what first got me into ESO was realizing that I needed to take a hiatus from replaying Skyrim, on account of having the entire map memorized, lol! If I didn't have access to quest mod packs with excellent dialogue/VAs I would feel the same. Skyrim has a lot of replayability for me because I take breaks, and I typically enjoy playing with survival mod packs, so it's more about the "wandering around without a compass trying not to die" aspect. But I also enjoy games with premises like Valheim - the appeal to doing that in a game like Skyrim is that there's more to it than just survival. It's kinda like playing a survival game, in a fully fleshed out world that I can interact with if I want (but don't necessarily have to!)
If I truly prioritized Elderscrolls lore over the way I like to play game, I maybe would have sticked with ESO. And it's possible I'd come back to questing, but yeah, content for me is definitely depth over breadth and I just personally felt like ESO was leaning into the latter. I can't compare its quest quality to other MMOs since I've only tried a handful in the past, but my gut reaction is that ESO is leagues better on account of the fact that I remember literally nothing about the quests in those games.1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
... And also it won't happen. Why? It will drive all the pvp players off while not replacing them. the development time which would be at least 6-8 months conservatively speaking. Meaning no new content and that doesn't make them money. Beyond that they would have a lot to figure out creatively and how to tie that in to everything which is more development time.
Not really...PVP could use the Arena system, they could have everything from 1v1 to 5v5 depending on the drops and payout that could be very popular and honestly when is the last time you actually saw new PVP content? So 6-8 months would really be nothing. And you really wouldn't just stop PVP anyway not until you are ready to replace it...
All in all this could easily be done and thinking about...it could very well likely happen.
So your just going to what? Kick pvp out of cyrodiil and imperial city and give them no open world option? That sounds really crap. Yes it will drive a significant amount of the pvp population away, I can't even begin to fathom how you wouldn't see that. Open world pvp is the biggest draw of pvp in the game, battle grounds are garbage and people get a huge kick out of riding off in their groups to take a keep and having massive battles. 1v5, 1v1, that will never satisfy folks that want large scale battles. I don't even do pvp really at all except to get a motif every now and again and I still see that as tremendously unfair. In addition idk how much you are familiar with coding but it's a massive undertaking. Period.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 20, 2022 8:02PM0 -
Kingsindarkness✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
... And also it won't happen. Why? It will drive all the pvp players off while not replacing them. the development time which would be at least 6-8 months conservatively speaking. Meaning no new content and that doesn't make them money. Beyond that they would have a lot to figure out creatively and how to tie that in to everything which is more development time.
Not really...PVP could use the Arena system, they could have everything from 1v1 to 5v5 depending on the drops and payout that could be very popular and honestly when is the last time you actually saw new PVP content? So 6-8 months would really be nothing. And you really wouldn't just stop PVP anyway not until you are ready to replace it...
All in all this could easily be done and thinking about...it could very well likely happen.
So your just going to what? Kick pvp out of cyrodiil and imperial city and give them no open world option?.
Well...yes because so few people play open world PVP and there are better options for the type of player who is into that sort of thing...it's like demanding that we have a RTS option for those type of players...it just dosen't make that much sense.
The devs who started this game came from Dark Age Of Camelot and that game only enjoyed mild success, because so few people are actually into open world PVP....Zenimax has forums out that their main audience is open world PVE.
The PVP/Raiding scene just dosen't justify the development time because so few people do it. There isn't a lot of folks who want to admit this...but it's true
The goal is to provide the maximum amount of content for the vast majority of players and Open World PVP just dosen't fit into that equation.
The good news is the devs haven't come to this conclusion yet...but I believe one day they will.
Edited by Kingsindarkness on September 20, 2022 11:28PM0 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
... And also it won't happen. Why? It will drive all the pvp players off while not replacing them. the development time which would be at least 6-8 months conservatively speaking. Meaning no new content and that doesn't make them money. Beyond that they would have a lot to figure out creatively and how to tie that in to everything which is more development time.
Not really...PVP could use the Arena system, they could have everything from 1v1 to 5v5 depending on the drops and payout that could be very popular and honestly when is the last time you actually saw new PVP content? So 6-8 months would really be nothing. And you really wouldn't just stop PVP anyway not until you are ready to replace it...
All in all this could easily be done and thinking about...it could very well likely happen.
So your just going to what? Kick pvp out of cyrodiil and imperial city and give them no open world option?.
Well...yes because so few people play open world PVP and there are better options for the type of player who is into that sort of thing...it's like demanding that we have a RTS option for those type of players...it just dosen't make that much sense.
The devs who started this game came from Dark Age Of Camelot and that game only enjoyed mild success, because so few people are actually into open world PVP....Zenimax has forums out that their main audience is open world PVE.
The PVP/Raiding scene just dosen't justify the development time because so few people do it. There isn't a lot of folks who want to admit this...but it's true
The goal is to provide the maximum amount of content for the vast majority of players and Open World PVP just dosen't fit into that equation.
The good news is the devs haven't come to this conclusion yet...but I believe one day they will.
So basically your saying it won't drive pvp out while at the same time destroying the main pvp portion of the game. Got it. Glad you aren't a dev. You are suggesting eso become a watered down Skyrim co-op of fetch quests, insanely easy overworld, and fashion. While your at it get rid of dungeons too lol. Bringing up raids is an absolute joke, you think they will ever pull that, really? Do you know how much time and development they have put into pve content? You might be able to make the argument that they haven't developed pvp much but trials and pve they have spent boatloads of time and money to develop. They aren't going to up and dump it. The severs will shut first. ESO is successful because you have so many options for play styles. Your suggesting shoehorning it into elder scrolls with other players as scenery.0 -
peacenote✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »I'm going to be honest- I feel like the definition of "casual" changes from person to person depending on the topic being discussed and whether it is convenient to the individuals point to call a certain play style "casual". I have seen multiple contradicting definitions of casual thrown around in the same thread (including this one) to the point where I no longer use the term to describe anyone or anything, including myself.
I've been called a "casual" due to my interest in RP, Questing, and Housing content, and yet my interest in these things run much deeper than that. Although I am not chasing meta builds by any means, I find I have a deep interest in refining both my PVP and PVE play style to satisfy my desire to play my characters as I see them, to walk in their shoes for a few hours a day, if you will. My drive is not competitive, it is story driven, but I am never the less devoted to it in a way that has brought me much deeper into the game and its mechanics, awakening an interest in learning to play better so that I can accomplish more and further my character's personal story. The game and it's inner workings inspire me on a creative and artistic level. I play daily, I try out different gear- I reach for the new adventures having these abilities promises me. When I am defeated in PVP or PVE, I want to know why, and how, and what I can do better. Yet I am not chasing scoreboards or aiming for perfection.
And then again, I've also had the label "hard core" applied to me -because- I like to quest and pursue story, with the implication that a "casual" is not interested in the lore or story of the game.
I don't feel any of these labels suit me or much of anyone else for that matter.
In short, I have no idea as to what a casual is or what that really means, since the spectrum of how a person plays can vary so widely. Some say that a casual player is one who only dips their toes into the game on the surface level, some say it's someone who doesn't pursue the meta. I'm honestly not sure ZOS actually understands the definition of "casual" either, or that any of us really do, since it is, once again, a term I see thrown around in the most contradictory sense all the time. One day x type of game play is "casual", one day x type of game play is "Hard core".
I specifically recall, in the Account Wide Achievement's thread, where debate on the topic was hot, the term "casual" being redefined every few posts depending on what one person deemed a "casual" vs what another person deemed a "casual". This thread honestly feels no different. I do not say this to incite argument or to appear negative towards other posters- I say it because the use of the term is so subjective depending on who you speak to that I feel it's almost useless to define it.
I could not agree with you more!
Labels in general are really problematic, although we humans love to slap labels on things to simplify our world. I will admit that I get some level of satisfaction by finding posts or arguments that define two categories and illustrating why how I play is both or neither, to make a point. Labels simplify things but they are also divisive as opposed to inclusive.
The community and ZOS is doing everyone a disservice by putting players into the two basic buckets, casual and hardcore. Which, I think, is the OP's point as well. When I think of the community, I try to envision players with attributes as opposed to a single bucket, and when I give feedback on proposed changes I try to think of all the attributes and whether anyone might be excluded or significantly impacted. Here are just "a few" examples of the viewpoints I think about:
*Plays Battlegrounds
*Plays on a regular schedule (daily or almost daily)
*Plays on a regular schedule (a few times a week)
*Plays intermittently
*Is a raid leader
*Likes Housing
*Has More than One Character
*Plays in one time zone
*Subscriber
*Likes to tank
*Likes to heal
*Likes repeating content
*Loves the lore
*Theorycrafter
*Likes outfits and costumes
*Played since beta
*Has a favorite class, and it's sorcerer
*Loves playing as a vampire
*Has multiple ESO accounts
And on and on. Many styles have multiple variations and some have only opposites, and some have sub categories. For example many people who play battlegrounds like only death match, while others hate death match.
Is a raid leader who plays intermittently and likes outfits and costumes a hard core or a casual player? What about someone who plays daily, loves the lore, and likes to play battlegrounds and quest? And really, WHO CARES?
What we should be thinking about is whether a significant change to x could negatively impact how someone with one of these attributes plays the game and, if so, is there a different way to solve the problem on the table?
Anyway, some of my attributes are: I raid, I've played since beta, I have many characters, I typically can only play 2 - 3 times a week, I dabble in all ESO content, from DLC dungeons to fishing, and while I try to keep up with what's expected for raids, I hesitate to gold out my jewelry. Am I casual? No idea. I would say no by many definitions given, but then I also am not the min/maxer that is often depicted when "the hard core 1%" is described, either. The casual and hard core labels really just aren't helpful, in my opinion.3 -
Kingsindarkness✭✭✭✭✭boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
... And also it won't happen. Why? It will drive all the pvp players off while not replacing them. the development time which would be at least 6-8 months conservatively speaking. Meaning no new content and that doesn't make them money. Beyond that they would have a lot to figure out creatively and how to tie that in to everything which is more development time.
Not really...PVP could use the Arena system, they could have everything from 1v1 to 5v5 depending on the drops and payout that could be very popular and honestly when is the last time you actually saw new PVP content? So 6-8 months would really be nothing. And you really wouldn't just stop PVP anyway not until you are ready to replace it...
All in all this could easily be done and thinking about...it could very well likely happen.
So your just going to what? Kick pvp out of cyrodiil and imperial city and give them no open world option?.
Well...yes because so few people play open world PVP and there are better options for the type of player who is into that sort of thing...it's like demanding that we have a RTS option for those type of players...it just dosen't make that much sense.
The devs who started this game came from Dark Age Of Camelot and that game only enjoyed mild success, because so few people are actually into open world PVP....Zenimax has forums out that their main audience is open world PVE.
The PVP/Raiding scene just dosen't justify the development time because so few people do it. There isn't a lot of folks who want to admit this...but it's true
The goal is to provide the maximum amount of content for the vast majority of players and Open World PVP just dosen't fit into that equation.
The good news is the devs haven't come to this conclusion yet...but I believe one day they will.
So basically your saying it won't drive pvp out while at the same time destroying the main pvp portion of the game. Got it. Glad you aren't a dev.
Nope I'm not a dev....I am a market researcher.
I can't really see any company (Microsoft) continue to allow their devs to create the most expensive content for a handful of people just because they like that type of content.
It's not logical or really good for Zenimax's bottom line.
I could be wrong...but I think we are going to see some significant changes over the next couple years.
But, time will tell.
Edited by Kingsindarkness on September 21, 2022 4:20AM1 -
boi_anachronism_✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »Kingsindarkness wrote: »boi_anachronism_ wrote: »
... And also it won't happen. Why? It will drive all the pvp players off while not replacing them. the development time which would be at least 6-8 months conservatively speaking. Meaning no new content and that doesn't make them money. Beyond that they would have a lot to figure out creatively and how to tie that in to everything which is more development time.
Not really...PVP could use the Arena system, they could have everything from 1v1 to 5v5 depending on the drops and payout that could be very popular and honestly when is the last time you actually saw new PVP content? So 6-8 months would really be nothing. And you really wouldn't just stop PVP anyway not until you are ready to replace it...
All in all this could easily be done and thinking about...it could very well likely happen.
So your just going to what? Kick pvp out of cyrodiil and imperial city and give them no open world option?.
Well...yes because so few people play open world PVP and there are better options for the type of player who is into that sort of thing...it's like demanding that we have a RTS option for those type of players...it just dosen't make that much sense.
The devs who started this game came from Dark Age Of Camelot and that game only enjoyed mild success, because so few people are actually into open world PVP....Zenimax has forums out that their main audience is open world PVE.
The PVP/Raiding scene just dosen't justify the development time because so few people do it. There isn't a lot of folks who want to admit this...but it's true
The goal is to provide the maximum amount of content for the vast majority of players and Open World PVP just dosen't fit into that equation.
The good news is the devs haven't come to this conclusion yet...but I believe one day they will.
So basically your saying it won't drive pvp out while at the same time destroying the main pvp portion of the game. Got it. Glad you aren't a dev.
Nope I'm not a dev....I am a market researcher.
I can't really see any company (Microsoft) continue to allow their devs to create the most expensive content for a handful of people just because they like that type of content.
It's not logical or really good for Zenimax's bottom line.
I could be wrong...but I think we are going to see some significant changes over the next couple years.
But, time will tell.
Making assumptions based on extremely incomplete data is not a good marketing strategy and last I checked zos does not publicly release data on players or content use so there isn't exactly anything to base that off. 8yrs has shown us that they will at the bare min continue to create more dungeons and trials.Edited by boi_anachronism_ on September 21, 2022 4:38AM1 -
svendf✭✭✭✭It have become very modern and a trend in time to cater to casual player´s by the top MMO dev´s out there. So, who are these player´s ?
When I began playing ESO I practical lived in the game. It was the only MMO I played, logged alot of hours in it.
Casual player´s are player´s with other commitments, often in RL. Some do sports, some have a job and families and hang out with friends. They seems to have a very social life outside a game or even play other games. The time they spend on games or a game is very important to them. Casual player´s often don´t have content they play, set in stone, on the other hand they can. That said they can be very commited to it, when time is spend on it.
Can a casual player also be a raider. Yes. Can they be interested in trifectas ? Yes. It all depends on the people they spend time with. Can a prog group be casual ? Yes it can. In the other MMO I play, we have something called hardcore raiders. Who are they ? They are player´s, who only live for that raid tier, nothing else. They live and breath it and, when that raid tier is done, they move on to maybe other games to do the same or commited to RL things and return again to repeat it all over again, when a new raid tier is released. They are not interested in other game content. They are raiders.
Dev´s often say. Don´t just play our game and get a burn out. Play other games, do other things and come back, when you feel like it. A very casual approach I will say. If you don´t like, what you see atm, go play something else and maybe come back later and have a look. The other MMO I play the dev´s have the same approach as here., Again a very casual approach and in that MMO Im very casual and see the same for other player´s in my FC/guild. In my guild I have hardcore raiders, mentors, plotters (they only do the main story) and others do maybe all most everything.
Can casual player´s be turned off by an MMO ? Yes, and again Yes. When a game starts to become a job like. I just have to login or I will miss something, gear, mats, I have to do this and that. And not allowed to be casual about it, they will leave. Does that ring an bell any where regarding another MMO out there in trouble ? It should.
As a casual player in another MMO and a visitor in ESO more or less. I can understand, why catering to casuals are so important to them and do feel they are right in doing so, but that´s another topic as it involve as to how long the game will live, evolve over time.
Thank you
Edited by svendf on September 21, 2022 3:59PM2 -
Northwold✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not being flippant, but I think if you want to picture who a casual player is, it's probably the people who don't care about 99% of the things that get agonised over on this forum. And I'm willing to bet that they form the significant majority of the playerbase.
The most vivid example of this recently was account wide achievements. When they were introduced these forums went into near meltdown. If you looked anywhere else, though, like steam or reddit, a vastly more common response was "why would you have more than one character?"
Some features of ESO are extremely attractive to many casual players, particularly the PVE questing which to many is an extension of the mainstream Elder Scrolls games. Others, like the bizarre, guild-gated trading system, may be actively repellent. I guess, basically, it's people who want to be able to pick up the game and put it down when they feel like it, not live in it.
Where the game always seems to run into problems is where it tries to mangle gameplay elements that appeal to polar opposite types of player together (the trading system is an obvious example of that but also, for example, linking certain important types of furnishings to group content when housing is a favourite of many solo, casual players, or the story quests that take players interested only in questing into Cyrodiil to get murdered). Trying to force players of X type to play Y type of content won't make them like your game more, whether it's trying to push casual players into hardcore content or pushing hardcore players into fluff. It just gets people very annoyed.
It's odd, though, because arguably they did work out, at least in terms of how to design zones, how to balance the desires of the two player types successfully without forcing one or the other to do stuff they did not want in Craglorn. Just they never did it again.Edited by Northwold on September 22, 2022 12:48PM5 -
Tberg725✭✭✭What I’ve never understood about the “accessibility” thing or making the game mind numbing easy for “casual” players is that casual players literally don’t care about dummy humping to 70k,80k,90k ect dps they literally hang out with friends play content which many have said above which is doable with gear they already have and have no problem doing it
I wish zos would stop with the nerfs and drastic changes in the name of “accessibility” because the casuals don’t care2 -
WinterHeart626✭✭✭✭AlanTheStarLord wrote: »
Let's see...every pvp event, some of the wonderful pvp players come to the forum to explain how much fun they will be having while ganking pve players attempting pvp. Warms the heart hearing how they plan to use all the AP/telvar they're going to score off the unprepared pvp noobs. Hearing they found the best spots to, how shall I say, maximize the speedy kill without the danger of the pver attempting to retaliate. Like when they found the door/loading exploit when turning in a quest.
You know, all the fun things a new unskilled player wants to hear that will make them super eager to try pvp. /sarcasm
I've been to Cyrodiil, just exploring. And my experiences there and in IC make me avoid pvp like it is the return of the Bubonic Plague on steroids. I play this game for fun and enjoyment. Spending time respawning for the 6th time [not fun or enjoyable] because I wanted to use a crafting station in IC and a rather competitive pvper was having his own idea of fun killing my character over and over really put paid to any slight interest I might have had in pvp.
Those “types” of PVPers are in the smaller range thankfully, there are days where you can run across cyro doing little things here and there without running into another player from the opposite factions. If you’re that edgy on being discovered, make a set of Adept rider and night mothers silence (or whatever the set is that grants 100% sneaky speed), voila, super speedy sneaky.
It’s all craftable, and in PVP, you want 3-4 parts heavy, 1 light, 1-3 parts medium 🤷🏻♂️ Survival is more important than damage.
Also ask if there’s groups running, if you’re in a guild, ask for some people to join you (if you’ve got PVP addicts, then they’re likely to suggest a better option for gear, as well as teach you basics).
It’s not all doom and gloom in Cyro. Sometimes there’s fun.1 -
jtm1018✭✭✭✭✭Do story line content.
Do a random normal dungeon.
Join a normal trial run.
Farm mats, just because.
Run all over the open world killing regular mobs like a big badass mofo.0 -
LordRukia✭✭✭✭A casual plays a game when they have the time and don't commit their life to it. Antisocial gamers or non competitive are not simply casuals.
I know a lot of "casuals" who play far more than I do but they just do different content in fact a lot of these so called casuals play all day and will still be logged in when I get off work.
I've made friends in all areas of the game and in many MMOs. Some people just don't like hard content , it's that simple.
I am a casual, I only played a couple times this week , started it off killing graven deep final boss on hm now I gotta map complete rivenspire to buy the daggerfall overlook. I've made almost 0 progress in 4 days 🤣 before that I was doing vmos trifecta, only took a few hours for a couple nights progress and we got it so tell me how Is that NOT casual?
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