Developer Arrogance and Disrespect to the Player Base is killing this game. (REAL FEEDBACK)

Crom_CCCXVI · September 2022

I recognize this thread will likely get closed or deleted before it is read, but nonetheless

What do I mean by ARROGANCE?
There is this Machiavellian Corporate Philosophy common in gaming that if you want to make a change you do it harsh, hard, fast and then move on. People will whine, cry, etc.. but the team knows what is best, their wisdom is infinite and in the End it will justify the Means. So you do what you have to do.
--- The Problem. This is to a degree outdated as games had much shorter lifespans in the past, with a few exceptions games that could live a decade plus is a relatively new concept. But even more so, it only works a few times, total ever.... With ESO there have been a handful of monumental changes. One Tamriel, the re-working of the 160 sets, the Weapon Ult and All Sets Redone Revolution... but these were over a span of years.
I'll better explain below, but now we seem to operate on the conclusion that the player base is ignorant kids, they'll be fine, get over it. These changes now seem to happen every few months, like the DC Multiverse, or the Cleveland Browns.

In Detail
Disrespect to the Player Base
- Essentially is ignoring the difference between a "Nerf" and TOTALLY ANNIHILATING THE USEFULNESS OR 100% CHANGING THE PURPOSE OF A EARNED ITEM. A nerf would be modifying an overpowered item to make it more balanced (hate that word "Balanced" .Because it doesn't mean making everything the same as it always seems to gravitate towards, instead successfully it is more about the value of specific Roles and being able to successfully play them as opposed to "My Healer Tank DPS Hybrid" performance is indistinguishable from your "DPS" or "Healer" something else we are getting dangerously close to)

***But what ESO now does without remorse is take something like a Maelstrom Staff, for example, a monster set, anything that required a commitment of time and work to achieve that item and then suddenly totally changing it's purpose or rendering it so weak that a crafted item is indistinguishable, in effect making all that time and commitment meaningless, and crushing the sense of accomplishment that player had with that item. That is Disrespecting your Player Base.
I'm not going to list off the 100's of pieces of Gold Gear I have acquired over the years that now sit on a chest covered in dust because DPS was turned into Recovery, or a DOT now does 500dmg every 2tics on a guy with 35k health or whatever else. - But this is pure disrespect, it happens regularly, and essentially is the developers saying "We don't care, you are wrong, or just quit, we'll get new players to replace you"... I wonder is this is a 1 person decision, or is this something a team talks about, ....is the CEO's nephew running the company now? It is such poor customer care it makes me wonder how things work behind the scenes.

Bottom Line is I was in a PvP guild with 40+ "regular players" from 2016 to 2020ish, when all the class Nerfs began. NB's couldn't gank because healths and armor got to high, CC's and stuns became a rarity.. Essentially "ROLES" started to disappear. Not every player is a elite master of 1 v X, many are support players who had specific roles they did well,... But when a DK uses talon 8x on a guy and he is always immune, or a Stam DPS can't hit a target because their primary skill like Uppercut becomes near impossible to land etc... then their favorite sets they spent 100k to 500k to Gold out, farmed for hours on end become a "hit a guy with 8 light attacks and get more magic recovery!" or something totally useless..
- how many times before they quit? I'm not sure exactly, but I'll be lucky if 5 people get on tonite, and Friday used to be guaranteed 20 just two years ago, and they didn't leave because of another game... this game ran them off.

I'm not sure what metrics ESO is using to measure it success but I think you need a new analyst, that or the plan is to totally destroy the player base and release a whole new game one day.

YOU TELL ME?

Memory_In_Motion · September 2022

You rage against their marketing machine which releases an op new shiny for everyone to chase after like a mouse in a maze searching for the exit and food... except that there is no exit and no food so long as you play. Only the corporate structure is fed, and by you the player base. If this is really how you feel about the game then by all means release yourself from your corporate overlords and go start a family, or go love the family you have more or anything else. Because this cycle of releasing op new shinies then nerfing them with the next release of op new shinies will never end. One day a crow must leave the nest after all....

Kingsindarkness · September 2022

I personally never understood these rants about the meta from players that (lets face it) aren't going to actually leave the game for any reason whatsoever...and even in the off chance they do they will still unload the exact same rants (or rants that they copy/paste from other threads) over and over again not for some hope of resolution or improvement of the game, but rather to induce yet another flame war where they sit back and report post they disagree with in hopes of garnering some type of forum action from the moderators.

Honestly is there anyone left on the forums who dosen't understand that this is what is actually happening anymore? I highly doubt it.....

I'm usually a lot more upbeat than this, but the disingenuousness of the forums lately has really got me down. Maybe it's the so called "Stream Team" content creators that regularly uses hate speech to describe players who don't run Vet Trials or are against Carries for money...or maybe it's just being sick of crybullies calling anyone who has anything positive to say "a toxic causal"...either way I'm done keeping my mouth shut.....

I know that if ESO shut down tomorrow the very same people who rant about how dead or dying the game is on multiple accounts on a almost hourly basis would be the first to make wistful post about that amazing gone too soon MMO ESO.

Hell they probably are the same folks that do it for SWG on multiple forums....even though more than likely they were screaming their heads off about NGE right up until the servers shut down.

h9dlb · September 2022

The sky is falling in

DreamyLu · September 2022

Honestly - sorry, that's my very personal feeling - I'm more disturbed by the arrogance and disrespect of players toward devs than the opposite.

I'm quite regularly shocked by how some people "talk" to/about devs in this forum. I wonder if they're also talking this way to others around them in real life. To be an angry/frustrated customer doesn't justify such behavior.

Generally, to disagree with someone or be angry at someone is in no way an excuse for arrogance, disrespect and aggressivity. This is valid for everybody.

Jman100582 · September 2022

DreamyLu wrote: »

Honestly - sorry, that's my very personal feeling - I'm more disturbed by the arrogance and disrespect of players toward devs than the opposite.

I'm quite regularly shocked by how some people "talk" to/about devs in this forum. I wonder if they're also talking this way to others around them in real life. To be an angry/frustrated customer doesn't justify such behavior.

Generally, to disagree with someone or be angry at someone is in no way an excuse for arrogance, disrespect and aggressivity. This is valid for everybody.

This amount of frustration isn’t an overnight thing. Many long time players who have played since launch, or played when the old combat team was led by wrobel have tried to have their input on the game heard countless times to no avail. Zos adds new items every patch that will clearly overperform, ignore player feedback that said items will overperform, make players farm said items in order to be competitive, and then nerf them in a couple of months. Same could be said about skills and classes, the pve community this patch was very vocal about how harmful the changes would be. And yet it went through anyway. Although this is probably the most angry I’ve seen the community on the forums over the past 6 years I’ve played eso, I’m honestly not surprised. Players are tired of not being heard, and having potentially what could be one of the best/unique mmo’s out there go to waste because zos seems to be more busy trying to make money and ignore server performance and balance and actual issues many players have. This patch is just the straw that broke many players

rauyran · September 2022

It's a game. You choose to play it and choose to pay for it. Why rage against something you choose to do?

Ishtarknows · September 2022

"Kingsindarkness wrote:

I know that if ESO shut down tomorrow the very same people who rant about how dead or dying the game is on multiple accounts on a almost hourly basis would be the first to make wistful post about that amazing gone too soon MMO ESO.

Can't speak for everyone but I've been ranting and moaning about how dead the game is *because* I want to play this game. It's nigh impossible to get fills for vet trials on XBEU right now in my mid game guilds. If I didn't care why would I have such strong feelings about the situation? I'd just leave quietly.

And yes people can have wistful remembrances about good things that were destroyed, even after they predicted or observed the dead rattles as they were produced.

Kingsindarkness · September 2022

Jman100582 wrote: »

DreamyLu wrote: »

Honestly - sorry, that's my very personal feeling - I'm more disturbed by the arrogance and disrespect of players toward devs than the opposite.

I'm quite regularly shocked by how some people "talk" to/about devs in this forum. I wonder if they're also talking this way to others around them in real life. To be an angry/frustrated customer doesn't justify such behavior.

Generally, to disagree with someone or be angry at someone is in no way an excuse for arrogance, disrespect and aggressivity. This is valid for everybody.

This amount of frustration isn’t an overnight thing.

[snip]

I think this game deserves a better forum....I think the real community wants a place where we can discuss real issues about the game that isn't drowned out by the next faux outrage.

There are actual issues...but each time someone post about them the outrage mob hijacks the thread.

@ZOS_Kevin a lot of us would really like for this nonsense to end.

[edited for baiting]

Jman100582 · September 2022

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

DreamyLu wrote: »

Honestly - sorry, that's my very personal feeling - I'm more disturbed by the arrogance and disrespect of players toward devs than the opposite.

I'm quite regularly shocked by how some people "talk" to/about devs in this forum. I wonder if they're also talking this way to others around them in real life. To be an angry/frustrated customer doesn't justify such behavior.

Generally, to disagree with someone or be angry at someone is in no way an excuse for arrogance, disrespect and aggressivity. This is valid for everybody.

This amount of frustration isn’t an overnight thing.

[snip]

I think this game deserves a better forum....I think the real community wants a place where we can discuss real issues about the game that isn't drowned out by the next faux outrage.

There are actual issues...but each time someone post about them the outrage mob hijacks the thread.

@ZOS_Kevin a lot of us would really like for this nonsense to end.

I mean I’m not condoning the whole “devs should die” type of thing that some players do. Or having the attitude that the game should be balanced around you and your needs, regardless of your skill level. But myself as a player who has been straight up told on a phone call by zos employees “if you don’t like our game, then leave” when I care about the games well being from being a long time consumer and I’m just swept under the rug? Because I has some criticism? That’s unacceptable to me personally, and I don’t think it’s something that players should accept being told

[edited to remove quote]

Drammanoth · September 2022

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

There are actual issues...but each time someone post about them the outrage mob hijacks the thread.

Yes, there are - and even problems or tragedies. But this forum is not about them. It was - allegedly - to give us a chance to voice our opinion, to chat about the game, the state of the game.

Someone started a topic on why maths is a better option than an MMORPG. It was banned - because 'not about the game'.

I will write this: to err is human, to forgive - divine learn the lesson - divine.

If playing ESO was a family entertainment, or where people met, could meet IRL, how is that 'just a game'? Yes, it is what we do, absolutely, yet it was thanks to ESO that it could be done.

And now the safe haven is in peril...

dmnqwk · September 2022

It's somewhat understandable to be frustrated BEFORE a patch hits... but if you're prepared to continue playing despite it hitting, then that's your choice.

You've made the choice to continue to play AFTER it hit... meaning you ignored the option to stop and followed the path of 'you hate yourself so much you're going to continue to play despite you hating the changes'.

That or you're not really as frustrated by them as you think you are, in which case why act like you are?

Kingsindarkness · September 2022

Drammanoth wrote: »

And now the safe haven is in peril...

No...no it's not.

And Voicing a opinion is a far cry from: "lets see how much drama we can stir up today!"

It's just a game because I don't have any scars from fighting that Lich and as close as me and my Guild leader are online I wouldn't know her from Adams housecat if she walked by....and that's by mutually agreed design.

I mean to each his own I cry every time Gandalf falls from the Bridge in Fellowship of the Rings...and I'm a big dude that does quintessential Dude things.

However any time you take a thing and artificially try to make it a completely different thing everyone suffers.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Lady_Galadhiel · September 2022

You got an awesome from me OP

Jaimeh · September 2022

I don't mind the cycling of sets because for an MMO, perpetually dangling a carrot in front of the players is par for the course. However, I mind that they cycle them so fast, and edit them so much, because it has become a situation where by the time you finished farming something, the next update is already rolling, bringing meta on its head, and you have to start all over again. With mythic items this is particularly problematic, as the lead farming can get really tedious, as well as for players who play a lot of roles/modes, thus need to farm a lot of gear. This roller-coaster-ing wasn't always so fast, in the past you could be competitive with older builds. Mythics being tied to releases exacerbate this because they are a reason for buying the release, so they have to be extra shiny, and their nerf is not only inevitable but also predetermined. At some point the only way to break through this cycle, is not participate: vote with your wallet, get the chapter when it becomes a DLC, and so on. As for the rest of the OP, I agree with the general sentiment, and I absolutely understand the frustration and disappointment. I don't think all the devs are arrogant or unwilling to listen (for eg., I think the housing furnishing team is doing a great job with feedback, and has provided a lot of features asked for, within the constraints of the system) but some of them (especially in higher positions) have come across as such on occasion, and it's definitely something that's harming the relationship with community, and by extension, the game itself.

AvalonRanger · September 2022

Developer Arrogance and Disrespect to the Player Base is killing this game.

>Yes it is. Recently getting terrible, the game head back to beta phase now.

I'm casual ESO player, so don't much care about U35 problem. However, the patch 8.1.5
brought almost insane bugs which has dangerous exploiting possibility. It'll almost destroy
business trust of ZOS. And, this is not first time. ZOS keep doing same mistake over and over,
each time they release new patch or DLC.

[snip]
[edited for discussing moderator action(s)]

FrancisCrawford · September 2022

Nothing is permanent in this game.

Your character's capabilties? Ha.
Your character's accomplishments? AWA took those away.
Your character's story to date? Not even that, given how clumsy the reuse of major NPCs has been.

If you enjoy super-casual play -- and I do -- that can be OK. But being serious about the game is not a good bet.

AvalonRanger · September 2022

Why we can define length of 1meter?

Because, there're basis of length of 1meter in our world. And 1 meter is always same length
all over the world. And we keep using this same basis through the long human history.

If people keep changing those "basis" just each of the year, We can't made any of decent
man-made products. Then manufacturing process fall in chaos.

ZOS keep changing "basis" of game design with too much high speed rate.
So players are confused each time strange patch released.
Why they can't define reliable 1meter basis of ESO?

cptscotty · September 2022

[snip] The current way quests are is the worst I have seen in an MMO. Completely boring and makes it hard to stay interested in the game...which then of course makes it harder for new players to stick with it and thus eventually as old players phase out you dont have enough new ones to fill in the spots...so you have issues finding groups and then the game dies.

All this other stuff kind of pales in comparison to how the core of the game and its main majority content feels broken. Really not sure why the developers have allowed this to go on for so long and ignore the glaring problems. Seriously consider hiring new people with new ideas if you want the game to continue.

[edited for bashing]

Rampeal · September 2022

I have not seen one single mmo stay the same since day one. Not One. They always adapt, balance, and change to stay fresh and fix issues. Most people that complain are those that chase the Meta Cookie Cutter builds. Of course you don't want your overpowered set to be balanced/nerfed. I get it. Many like running sets that make them feel like gods, but the problem is if they did not change it PvP and PvE would devolve into everyone running the same handful of sets with no variety, which would kill the game.

This games whole appeal is collecting sets and making builds. That is why most of us are here. That and Lore. People today are way to obsessed with parse and getting damage high to breeze through content and pvp. And the only way to do this is by running the Meta sets, and when they are fixed people rage and come up with excuses.

PvP players: "This patch is going to ruin pvp, it is so boring now, I am quiting because they balance/nerfed my skills/sets". Yet we never hear how good the PvP is or how not one MMO to this day can compare to it. (FF14 pvp is a joke FYI)

PvE players: "This patch is going to ruin PvE, We won't be able to do Vet Dungeons/trials with this patch, balances they make for Pvpers ruined my build". We all know that no patch has ever hindered anyone's ability to do Veteran content. Just now instead of rolling majority Dps, Fake healers and tanks, they have to actually play as a group and be a role other than Dps and take their time doing Veteran instead of rushing to the end.... The Horror I know right?

Long story short is that it seems like ESO players have become entitled and just want that instant gratification without actually doing much for it.

WhisperLFE · September 2022

Rampeal wrote: »

I have not seen one single mmo stay the same since day one. Not One. They always adapt, balance, and change to stay fresh and fix issues. Most people that complain are those that chase the Meta Cookie Cutter builds. Of course you don't want your overpowered set to be balanced/nerfed. I get it. Many like running sets that make them feel like gods, but the problem is if they did not change it PvP and PvE would devolve into everyone running the same handful of sets with no variety, which would kill the game.

This games whole appeal is collecting sets and making builds. That is why most of us are here. That and Lore. People today are way to obsessed with parse and getting damage high to breeze through content and pvp. And the only way to do this is by running the Meta sets, and when they are fixed people rage and come up with excuses.

PvP players: "This patch is going to ruin pvp, it is so boring now, I am quiting because they balance/nerfed my skills/sets". Yet we never hear how good the PvP is or how not one MMO to this day can compare to it. (FF14 pvp is a joke FYI)

PvE players: "This patch is going to ruin PvE, We won't be able to do Vet Dungeons/trials with this patch, balances they make for Pvpers ruined my build". We all know that no patch has ever hindered anyone's ability to do Veteran content. Just now instead of rolling majority Dps, Fake healers and tanks, they have to actually play as a group and be a role other than Dps and take their time doing Veteran instead of rushing to the end.... The Horror I know right?

Long story short is that it seems like ESO players have become entitled and just want that instant gratification without actually doing much for it.

Yeah, people like to complain. And it's human nature to knee-jerk/automatically disagree with something that's said to you; most of us do it daily without realizing. But for the bolded, that's just a wider situation occurring across multiple aspects of society today; I'm not sure that ESO players are different from anyone else in that regard.

LalMirchi · September 2022

What is Real Feedback? I sit the opposite of UnReal Feedback.

What to do if I do not agree with the OPs rant?

Rampeal · September 2022

To be fair, ZoS has listened to the player base. They have all but killed the Healer and Tank roles in PvP and PvE.
The ✌️"Tanks and Heals"✌️ you see mostly now are just a different flavor of DD/Dps running LA/HA. Gone are the days of Roles actually meaning anything. I mean a Tank that stacks health and near infinite blocks ability is mocked and Healers that run percentage healing are scolded for not stacking Spell/Weapon damage.

Only plan I wanna see is ZoS making Heals based off attributes only and Damage based of Weapon/Spell Damage. That would be a great balance to this game. Would bring back importance of Tank and Healing roles.

Iron_Warrior · September 2022

- X has been buffed by 127&
- Y has been nerfed by 42%
- Z now does a completely different thing

I just want the game to come out of this eternal alpha state...

Rampeal · September 2022

AvalonRanger wrote: »

Why we can define length of 1meter?

Because, there're basis of length of 1meter in our world. And 1 meter is always same length
all over the world. And we keep using this same basis through the long human history.

If people keep changing those "basis" just each of the year, We can't made any of decent
man-made products. Then manufacturing process fall in chaos.

ZOS keep changing "basis" of game design with too much high speed rate.
So players are confused each time strange patch released.
Why they can't define reliable 1meter basis of ESO?

Actually it has changed many times since 1791. It is mathematical science, and it is always changing.

RaddlemanNumber7 · September 2022

I wouldn't say that Developer Arrogance and Disrespect to the Player Base is actually killing this game, but it does make the game a lot less fun for me.

Firstmep · September 2022

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

Jman100582 wrote: »

DreamyLu wrote: »

Honestly - sorry, that's my very personal feeling - I'm more disturbed by the arrogance and disrespect of players toward devs than the opposite.

I'm quite regularly shocked by how some people "talk" to/about devs in this forum. I wonder if they're also talking this way to others around them in real life. To be an angry/frustrated customer doesn't justify such behavior.

Generally, to disagree with someone or be angry at someone is in no way an excuse for arrogance, disrespect and aggressivity. This is valid for everybody.

This amount of frustration isn’t an overnight thing.

[snip]

I think this game deserves a better forum....I think the real community wants a place where we can discuss real issues about the game that isn't drowned out by the next faux outrage.

There are actual issues...but each time someone post about them the outrage mob hijacks the thread.

@ZOS_Kevin a lot of us would really like for this nonsense to end.

[edited for baiting]

Actual issues.
I hate break it to you but that's subjective.
For example I dont care about fake tanking, while there are others who start frothing at the mouth every time the topic comes up.
Different ppl, different perspectives and opinions.

On topic: The devs cant really use all feedback, since theres always a fair bit of conflicting ideas even on the same topic in the community.
Just look at Oakensoul nerf, it was very divisive.

That being said, a lot of u35 changes were met with a resounding negative feedback, and I think when most of the playerbase agrees on stuff like this, the devs really should consider an alternative route to their goal, as opposed to doubling down.

MaraxusTheOrc · September 2022

Stopped reading after the section titled “arrogance” opened with “Machiavellian corporate philosophy.”

Lol.

Captain_Devildog · September 2022

I stopped paying.

LesserCircle · September 2022

You got my awesome too OP.

DizzyMac · September 2022

i always sit in amazement at the people who, despite see the destruction right across the board, will just take the disrespect thrown at them as customers & part of the community by ZOS..

I mean seriously, if your partner treated you with the same disrespect ZOS treats players, would you still want to be in that relationship?