Developer Arrogance and Disrespect to the Player Base is killing this game. (REAL FEEDBACK)

SilverBride

Androrix wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I am not sure what you are referring to, but I don't remember ever expressing disappoinment in the frequency or extensiveness of changes.

Oh no...you are right!! I was confusing you with Vylaera. Sorry.

I think the picture confused me. I will edit the post.

It can happen! Thank you for clarifying!

UnabashedlyHonest

SilverBride wrote: »

Kalle_Demos wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

SizanLopkniht wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

What about player arrogance and disrespect to the developers?

Every time there is a change there are going to be some who don't like it. Giving feedback about why it's undesirable is a lot more effective than bashing and threats.

Respect is a two way street.

How long as ZOS "been working on it" when it comes to PvP improvements with nothing to show for it? Three years? Longer? Instead the players get mocked and ridiculed and banned on twitch for doing nothing other than typing PvP in chat.

The players pay to be here. It's our right to complain when mistreated. Instead we get responses like "Wah wah wah, they're working on it." and "if you don' like it, you can go play something else" instead of actual fixes and improvements.

Respect is, in fact, a two way street.

I agree that Rich's wife was way out of line with her comments and should not have even been on his stream as far as I'm concerned. But that was his wife, not him and he no longer streams because of it.

But every single time there is a change the forums are flooded with insults and bashing. That is not the way to be heard.

What a wild misunderstanding of the situation. The notion that the devs are somehow innocent and the big bad paying customers are somehow the cause of all strife here is blatantly false. Take the current disaster. People are not upset because of general change but because said change had the opposite affect of stated goals and has negatively affected gameplay across the board.

Especially it seems for the players the patch was meant for. The 'accessibility' patch has made things more difficult for disabled players and I can only commend them for the grace displayed in dealing with this conundrum. Worse, all this was predictable.

For weeks during PTS, concerns about the consequences of the proposed changes were discussed at length but concerns were ultimately ignored. The breakdown in this relationship is not on our end but Zos'. And this is not the first time massive negative impacts have made it to live despite the community's outcry.

Remember that time that Healing was dead is ESO? HEALING! A cornerstone of MMORPG gaming since the dawn of time was dead in ESO for weeks after community feedback was ignored. And SizanLopkniht is right. PVP has been a joke for YEARS. And it's even worse now. People have been paying into the game for years on promised content and quality updates and have seen NOTHING for their investment.

We are doing our part over here. In every medium from the forums, twitter, twitch, official live streams we are screaming to be heard but ignored and even insulted at each turn. Of course there is frustration. The devs are falling short. Repeatedly. The anger you see here in the forums and other media is justified and has been building for a long time.

I am not misunderstanding. Every time there is a change the forums are filled with bashing because the developers developed their game in a way they thought would be beneficial to the player base. Not giving in to threats and completely removing something that hasn't even had enough time to fully realize its effect doesn't mean they aren't listening. They even made a lot of changes to Update 35 before it was released based on player feedback.

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

The problem is ZOS and the devs are, almost without exception, ignoring the player base and instead making changes that reflect cooperate interests rather than the players interests.

Rohamad_Ali

ZoS has towed corporate policies since day one of inception. The difference between ZoS an other game companies is ZoS doesn't have share holders to worry about. They can make what ever policy they choose being self funded. While this self reliance has lead to many advantages, customer service and public relations have not been as blessed.

No one really knows what could ever destroy this game because ZoS could keep it going as long as they want.

So, knowing that, how does one appeal to such a self reliant corporation to listen to ones woes? Well, people are still figuring this out. Send them feedback an move on. This just isn't a company like any other an that's what has lead us here.

ForumBully

The majority of the communication the community receives is post moderation and the occasional response to an issue months late.
Anyone who's been on the forums long sees the patterns when a decision or direction is clearly not going to have the result the developers say they're after. We point it out, and for whatever reason we're ignored. Eventually, they have to acknowledge the problem but seemingly refuse to accept it in the moment no matter how much data is given during the PTS cycle.
[snip]
This has been going on for years, so there's quite a bit of frustration from older players having to watch the cycle again and again.

[Edited for Bashing]

SilverBride

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

The problem is ZOS and the devs are, almost without exception, ignoring the player base...

Not doing what players want isn't the same as ignoring them.

ForumBully

ForumBully wrote: »

The majority of the communication the community receives is post moderation and the occasional response to an issue months late.
Anyone who's been on the forums long sees the patterns when a decision or direction is clearly not going to have the result the developers say they're after. We point it out, and for whatever reason we're ignored. Eventually, they have to acknowledge the problem but seemingly refuse to accept it in the moment no matter how much data is given during the PTS cycle.
[snip]
This has been going on for years, so there's quite a bit of frustration from older players having to watch the cycle again and again.

[Edited for Bashing]

See what I mean?

MidniteOwl1913

SilverBride wrote: »

Following their vision and benefiting the player base aren't exclusive. It is possible for a change to do both.

Okay, but what vision? Do you know because I sure don't. Is there a link somewhere that they have communicated that goal?

And I'm not sure what set of players U35 benefits. The accessibility "goal" was clearly not met while the devs goal of reducing damage "bloat" clearly was.

So the plan for U35 such as it was did not meet the stated goal of helping players, any players. Are there other plans that I am not aware of?

MidniteOwl1913

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

SilverBride

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

And there has been a lot of bashing and insulting. This does not lead to a constructive conversation.

ForumBully

SilverBride wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

And there has been a lot of bashing and insulting. This does not lead to a constructive conversation.

To be fair, neither does complete silence. There is rarely conversation, constructive or otherwise.

Freelancer_ESO

SilverBride wrote: »

Following their vision and benefiting the player base aren't exclusive. It is possible for a change to do both.

Much of the time it wouldn't be possible as the two could easily end up conflicting.

Think about how much you disagree with other players. Now, imagine you also had years of experience looking at things from a developer's perspective in addition to your experiences as a player. Do you really think you are going to see eye to eye with players very much?

For example, one of the games I play has civilian clothes that you can obtain and use. However, the player can't use them in the outfit system because the developers don't like the way the civilian clothes look and don't want players to use the clothes much.

On some games that hire players to join the development team you can literally watch individuals go from complaining about the developers doing a bad job in area x to being the developer people complain about doing a bad job in area x in a few short years.

the1andonlyskwex

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Following their vision and benefiting the player base aren't exclusive. It is possible for a change to do both.

Much of the time it wouldn't be possible as the two could easily end up conflicting.

Think about how much you disagree with other players. Now, imagine you also had years of experience looking at things from a developer's perspective in addition to your experiences as a player. Do you really think you are going to see eye to eye with players very much?

For example, one of the games I play has civilian clothes that you can obtain and use. However, the player can't use them in the outfit system because the developers don't like the way the civilian clothes look and don't want players to use the clothes much.

On some games that hire players to join the development team you can literally watch individuals go from complaining about the developers doing a bad job in area x to being the developer people complain about doing a bad job in area x in a few short years.

Benefiting the player base and doing what players (think/say they) want aren't necessarily the same thing.

LordRukia

A couple years ago I seem to recall ZoS saying something along the lines of they won't do big changes due to massive negative feedback on something simple as a wardrobe model change.. now we got 2 abilities changed in both function and visual feedback. Didn't even put in effort to sync audio on flurry and use basic light attacks in the animation. These are things I'd expect to see from a game in maintenance mode by a very disconnected skeleton crew of interns. I know personally people who do animation that could have actually done a way better job and in probably less time. One has to wonder what's going on over at ZoS. Meanwhile NPCs are showing us up on animations by a long shot.. we get silly flailing.

And what is up with all the constant game changing balances, someone needs to address these issues to them directly in an interview because its actually mind blowing and I want to know their logic behind it all. I am convinced there is none and they just need a reason to justify their job because god forbid we just let people enjoy the game.

Redguards_Revenge

sinnereso wrote: »

I think the flavour on this forum and many other is so far off its beyond. The rage hate and anger is next level. Do anyone here sit in lets say General Motors forum DEMANDING cars be built the way they want them or does that just sound rediculous? ESO is a product and they make it the way they see fit and we either like it or we dont.

If they recalled the car and removed half the functionality, you paid for, yes...yes there would be these posts. The car was built in 2014. They promised updated to the car. Then Every three months they want us to buy a partial pack that removes performance because they found out the new packs emitted too much emissions over what is by law. Kind of like VW. Then Every year instead of us getting a brand new car they update some stuff on a used car and says it can run just as well as a brand new one. The car is 7+ years!

Do you see why your analogy doesn't make sense?

UnabashedlyHonest

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

The problem is ZOS and the devs are, almost without exception, ignoring the player base...

Not doing what players want isn't the same as ignoring them.

Ok, now please explain why the promises to fix PvP have gone totally ignored for 3-5 years please.

UnabashedlyHonest

SilverBride wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

And there has been a lot of bashing and insulting. This does not lead to a constructive conversation.

The amount of actual bashing going on is a tiny, tiny fraction of some on this forum claim is happening.

cptscotty

I would suggest to you all that you stop paying for the subscription and anything else extra in the game for the time being till you feel your problems are taken seriously.

boi_anachronism_

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

I personally never understood these rants about the meta from players that (lets face it) aren't going to actually leave the game for any reason whatsoever...and even in the off chance they do they will still unload the exact same rants (or rants that they copy/paste from other threads) over and over again not for some hope of resolution or improvement of the game, but rather to induce yet another flame war where they sit back and report post they disagree with in hopes of garnering some type of forum action from the moderators.

Honestly is there anyone left on the forums who dosen't understand that this is what is actually happening anymore? I highly doubt it.....

I'm usually a lot more upbeat than this, but the disingenuousness of the forums lately has really got me down. Maybe it's the so called "Stream Team" content creators that regularly uses hate speech to describe players who don't run Vet Trials or are against Carries for money...or maybe it's just being sick of crybullies calling anyone who has anything positive to say "a toxic causal"...either way I'm done keeping my mouth shut.....

I know that if ESO shut down tomorrow the very same people who rant about how dead or dying the game is on multiple accounts on a almost hourly basis would be the first to make wistful post about that amazing gone too soon MMO ESO.

Hell they probably are the same folks that do it for SWG on multiple forums....even though more than likely they were screaming their heads off about NGE right up until the servers shut down.

Lots of content creators actually do carries and yeah I'm against carries. It cheapens the accomplishment. I've heard this from friends that got them and went on to clear the content themselves later. In some cases I get it- your disabled, your older, many reasons but folks who want it for gear that they don't have the skill to use (bahsei stands out) or to show off. Nah I can't support that. My personal opinion I always make this analogy when folks talk about this: yes it's a game but so are sports and just like sports this game has people at varying levels of skill based on the time they put in. Like as sports eso has a "pro" level. I'm a climber, I'm decent but I would never expect to perform on an Olympic level while putting in 4 hours a week of training compared to a pro and their 20 something hrs. Just because you want to be in the NFL doesn't mean you are entitled to be. The same thing applies with the time argument: if I had the time to train like that would I be as good? Yeah maybe because I had stints of time where I could but I don't and that's life.

Jaraal

SilverBride wrote: »

Every time there is a change the forums are filled with bashing because the developers developed their game in a way they thought would be beneficial to the player base.

Except the way they think is beneficial changes 180 degrees every three months or less. And players are tired of jumping through hoops trying to keep up.

They said they were done with major changes to combat years ago. How are we supposed to trust them?

Kingsindarkness

ForumBully wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

And there has been a lot of bashing and insulting. This does not lead to a constructive conversation.

To be fair, neither does complete silence. There is rarely conversation, constructive or otherwise.

I dunno when you consider the negative comments ultimatums and threats that has been leveled at the devs and sometimes their families.

Over a video game yet...

I think all in all we get quite a bit of communication.... I mean they could eliminate the forums and just communicate through monthly Streams

That is what Blizzard is doing; all of their forums are being phased out aside from Technical support....

From a business standpoint there really is no downside, and it would probably actually improve the moral of the dev team

jerj6925

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

And there has been a lot of bashing and insulting. This does not lead to a constructive conversation.

To be fair, neither does complete silence. There is rarely conversation, constructive or otherwise.

I dunno when you consider the negative comments ultimatums and threats that has been leveled at the devs and sometimes their families.

Over a video game yet...

I think all in all we get quite a bit of communication.... I mean they could eliminate the forums and just communicate through monthly Streams

That is what Blizzard is doing; all of their forums are being phased out aside from Technical support....

From a business standpoint there really is no downside, and it would probably actually improve the moral of the dev team

They are just relying on something that does not cost them money like redit, they are watching because they want to know how the customer base is feeling.

The trouble with this game is it’s being run by people who are most likely book smart but really don’t understand what it is they are managing. You see this in very large companies or ones that have been around long enough where the people that made it great have all moved on for various reasons. Those positions are then filled by new ladder climbers only interested in working for a big-name company to make a name for themselves to move up, with no interest in real quality. They want to do something big and move on and up before they have to face the long-term ramifications of their bad short-term decision.

Kingsindarkness

jerj6925 wrote: »

They are just relying on something that does not cost them money like redit, they are watching because they want to know how the customer base is feeling.

Surprisingly no...the stated reason was that sale profiles and surveys were more accurate than forums or other types of Social media, and they no longer provided a platform that could be used for hate speech.

I thought it was odd but it's their Railroad....


It makes me wonder if other MMO's are going to follow suit.

ForumBully

Kingsindarkness wrote: »

ForumBully wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

UnabashedlyHonest wrote: »

Not every statement of discontent is bashing, no matter how often it is inappropriately labeled as such.

A statement of discontent would be something like "I am unhappy with this change because it does this and that and makes the game less enjoyable for me." That is very different from "developer arrogance".

A lot of players, myself included have been doing just that. Is there some response to this player feedback that I have missed?

And there has been a lot of bashing and insulting. This does not lead to a constructive conversation.

To be fair, neither does complete silence. There is rarely conversation, constructive or otherwise.

I dunno when you consider the negative comments ultimatums and threats that has been leveled at the devs and sometimes their families.

Over a video game yet...

I think all in all we get quite a bit of communication.... I mean they could eliminate the forums and just communicate through monthly Streams

That is what Blizzard is doing; all of their forums are being phased out aside from Technical support....

From a business standpoint there really is no downside, and it would probably actually improve the moral of the dev team

They should get rid of the forums...just end the charade once and for all.

Carcamongus

I don't like U35, as its results don't match its stated goals and there are better ways to raise the floor. People have legitimate reasons to dislike these changes, so their reactions aren't just "kneejerk". Sure, change is inevitable and all that, but we're talking about designed changes to a game, meaning they could've been designed better.

How helpful is it, though, to call the devs arrogant? Would you, as a dev with limited time, read a thread that starts like that? I have to assume the point of criticism is we want to be heard/read. Several people took the time to write thoughtful posts explaining why U35 is bad and proposing alternatives. Did the devs read those? I can't say, but the odds are far better. This isn't about one's frustration being right or wrong, but about communicating better.

ForumBully

Some people go right to screaming profanity, but most feedback gradually turns a little pointed after months of being ignored during a PTS cycle on specific issues; and that's on top of years of the same repeated cycle during the life of the game.
Taking this update as an example, players asked repeatedly how the course of action achieved the stated goals, politely I might add, and not once has this been explained. Data was provided by players repeatedly showing the exact opposite and that work appears to have been in vain because the response is to push ahead with an update that does NOT achieve the stated goals. Then we have Maras Balm on the PvP side. This set was called out very early as being problematic in the same way that ZoS has made several similar errors with a heal that has no cooldown and despite content creators and the community at large bringing attention to the problem, our feedback was again ignored until AFTER the update goes live.

This is the pattern that upsets people. Feedback and testing that we provide as a community is met with silence more often than not, so why bother having a PTS or a forum?

ForumBully

It's frustrating to see the development team getting into a mood again where they just don't want to be wrong, no matter how clear it is. It's happened before and it leads to months of undoing what they've done when it could have been avoided. No one wants to burn updates unraveling mistakes that could be avoided.

spartaxoxo

U35 had plenty of communication and people still claimed it didn't because the devs didn't scrap the changes. The U35 feedback also had plenty of hostility from the moment they showcased it. So much so that the creative director infamously asked people to actually try it on PTS before complaining. Poor choice of words and poor decision given it was worse than many initially thought.

U35 and the devs should have known better than to put this out. They literally had competing goals and a poor vision and it resulted in a really bad patch. All of the hate towards U35 is completely justified. But, we're the only ones responsible for our own communication. It's reasonable to be upset about U35, but all the bashing isn't reasonable. How you communicate is as important as what you communicate.

I think it's worth continuing the pressure around U35. BTW, where's that Q&A they said they'd do? But I don't think it's reasonable to downplay the bashing. Many companies have moved away from having a forum because of it. If ZOS didn't care, they'd have ended this forum when the rest of the company ditched theirs. They simply prefer to test changes out on live rather than scrap everything on PTS cycles. It causes a ton of problems when an update is as awful as U35, but it also has probably come in handy in the past too since pts is limited in its reach. They should take another look at that policy.

Jaraal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think it's worth continuing the pressure around U35. BTW, where's that Q&A they said they'd do? But I don't think it's reasonable to downplay the bashing. Many companies have moved away from having a forum because of it.

Could you imagine the state of the game if there were not hundreds of pages of feedback from players about bugs, broken sets, exploits, and the like? If it were just ZOS pushing out a bunch of new code every three months and then going back to working on the next update, with no input at all from players? Fine tuning would be ZOS watching 3 or 4 cherry picked content creator streams.... and that's it.

Just think about that for a minute.

spartaxoxo

Jaraal wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I think it's worth continuing the pressure around U35. BTW, where's that Q&A they said they'd do? But I don't think it's reasonable to downplay the bashing. Many companies have moved away from having a forum because of it.

Could you imagine the state of the game if there were not hundreds of pages of feedback from players about bugs, broken sets, exploits, and the like? If it were just ZOS pushing out a bunch of new code every three months and then going back to working on the next update, with no input at all from players? Fine tuning would be ZOS watching 3 or 4 cherry picked content creator streams.... and that's it.

Just think about that for a minute.

They'd still look at Twitter, Reddit, and player metrics. But yes, it would be a mess. The forums have been invaluable for that type of thing and I think they know that, even they don't particularly feel like wading in during backlash.

SilverBride

ForumBully wrote: »

Taking this update as an example, players asked repeatedly how the course of action achieved the stated goals, politely I might add, and not once has this been explained.

All I've seen are a lot of bashing and insulting threads. I wouldn't reply to that either.