No Justice please

scruffycavetroll · May 2014

Rotherhans wrote: »

A quote from the May 1st announcement:
A justice system—steal from and kill NPCs and deal with the consequences if you are caught

So who else is a bit worried about this?
Sounds great, on the first read. But then one starts to wonder.

Not everything that works in a single player game does fit that well into the MMO gameplay.
And I fear this is one of the occasions where the probability for an arrow to the knee is overwhelmingly high. Similar to when ZMax broke the story flow by giving us the "freedom" to go back to the starter islands.

Again, we don´t really know what and how exactly justice is going to work.
But anything that changes the current somewhat chaotic "looting freedom" can simply by definition be nothing but a biga.. pain in the buttocks.

the problem is the ESO fans are probably a vocal bunch, and the game is so confused as to if it wants to be a single player game with some multiplayer elements, or an MMO with single player elements.

it's trying to hard to be both, and if they don't make the 'right' choices for the game, it will die.

FrauPerchta · May 2014

I always liked the original way that UO was set up. You pick pocket but if you got caught in town you went Red which meant anyone could kill you and every town guard came running to take you out. Outside of town it was PvP, if another player was attacking you that you thought you couldn't beat (you really didn't want to die because all you gear fell to the ground for anyone to pick up) you had to run to the nearest guarded area where a guard would kill your attacker, If you killed other players you could become Red all the time and not be able to enter very many cities.

Ganking n00b, miners and the like because so popular that a group of us formed a guild to protect them. We'd set up ambushes in well known gank area then as soon as the PVPers attacked first they were open season to us without worrying about picking up negative rep that would get us killed by guards. Great fun, first time a game actually made my heart pound so hard I was sure my girlfriend sitting across the room could hear it.

Genomic · May 2014

FrauPerchta wrote: »

I always liked the original way that UO was set up. You pick pocket but if you got caught in town you went Red which meant anyone could kill you and every town guard came running to take you out. Outside of town it was PvP, if another player was attacking you that you thought you couldn't beat (you really didn't want to die because all you gear fell to the ground for anyone to pick up) you had to run to the nearest guarded area where a guard would kill your attacker, If you killed other players you could become Red all the time and not be able to enter very many cities.

Ganking n00b, miners and the like because so popular that a group of us formed a guild to protect them. We'd set up ambushes in well known gank area then as soon as the PVPers attacked first they were open season to us without worrying about picking up negative rep that would get us killed by guards. Great fun, first time a game actually made my heart pound so hard I was sure my girlfriend sitting across the room could hear it.

I really liked that too. I thought UO got a lot of things right, quite remarkably considering it was one of the first.

But of course UO and ESO are very different animals. UO was definitely far toward the sandbox end of the spectrum (no quests at all initially, no story as such, you could bump into high level or trash mobs just about anywhere) and ESO is mostly themepark with quest chains through level segregated regions. For this reason I don't think the justice system is at all transferable.

Vikova · May 2014

As long as they have a system in place to protect vendors and bankers, I have no issue with a justice system. It will not have that dramatic of an effect.

Thechemicals · May 2014

I remember in ultima online, the thieves used to steal the loot from raid bosses that entire guilds were working on to bring down. Good luck.

Lisa · May 2014

The only problem I see is one of my group members has never done the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood questlines in any of the single player ES games. I like the "Robin Hood" style Thieves Guild in Oblivion, but Skyrim's was not for me. It should be part of ESO, but I would like there to be a really good reason to join either of them. Not just for the sake of killing NPC's or stealing loot.

Vikova · May 2014

Lisa wrote: »

The only problem I see is one of my group members has never done the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood questlines in any of the single player ES games. I like the "Robin Hood" style Thieves Guild in Oblivion, but Skyrim's was not for me. It should be part of ESO, but I would like there to be a really good reason to join either of them. Not just for the sake of killing NPC's or stealing loot.

What exactly do you mean by a "really good reason?" Someone wants to experience the content and have access to the skill trees. How is that not a good enough reason?

nerevarine1138 · May 2014

Lisa wrote: »

The only problem I see is one of my group members has never done the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood questlines in any of the single player ES games. I like the "Robin Hood" style Thieves Guild in Oblivion, but Skyrim's was not for me. It should be part of ESO, but I would like there to be a really good reason to join either of them. Not just for the sake of killing NPC's or stealing loot.

Well, those are the reasons you join them. Many of us were not fans of Oblivion sanitizing the Thieves Guild into some kind of alternate way of playing the hero.

However, as mentioned in the Reddit AMA, players will also have the option to become guards. To them, I can only say: you'll never catch me, coppers!

Orizuru · May 2014

Rotherhans wrote: »

A quote from the May 1st announcement:
A justice system—steal from and kill NPCs and deal with the consequences if you are caught

So who else is a bit worried about this?
Sounds great, on the first read. But then one starts to wonder.

Not everything that works in a single player game does fit that well into the MMO gameplay.
And I fear this is one of the occasions where the probability for an arrow to the knee is overwhelmingly high. Similar to when ZMax broke the story flow by giving us the "freedom" to go back to the starter islands.

Again, we don´t really know what and how exactly justice is going to work.
But anything that changes the current somewhat chaotic "looting freedom" can simply by definition be nothing but a biga.. pain in the buttocks.

I'm already having flashbacks to Daggerfall of being chased by guards yelling "Halt!" endlessly.

I'm excited for the Justice system though. It's something entirely new to the MMO genre that I think has a lot of potential. And it might also solve some of the inventory problems the hoarders are having if there are repercussions for just picking up every item you find in the world.

psychounz · May 2014

It is a little absurd, currently, that you can run into a shop and completely gank any and all items in the desks, baskets, wardrobes, etc. without any penalties whatsoever XD

When I first read this, I thought it more had to do with killing NPCs and since they're planing to bring in the Dark Brotherhood, this makes sense that there should be consequences for those quest lines. Now, I bet that if you're given a DB quest to kill Merchant Schmoe wandering the outskirts of Daggerfall, he'll probably only instance for you at that time, whereas other players can still encounter him on the road. This would only work, then, if a different merchant, Jane Schmee, popped in that area instead. As it stands, they'll have to implement something like that since there is only ever one merchant wandering per area (it drives me bananas to pass Merchant A only to have him reappear walking in the other direction 50 feet from where he just was).

My first reaction was simple, "Hey, don't kill anyone," but I know that there are other players who won't take that view XD Then I realized that it also would include stealing, and the like. I'm not sure how the stealing might be implemented, though, especially since anyone can go into stealth mode... I haven't been able to figure that one out.

Lisa · May 2014

Saiden wrote: »

Lisa wrote: »

The only problem I see is one of my group members has never done the Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood questlines in any of the single player ES games. I like the "Robin Hood" style Thieves Guild in Oblivion, but Skyrim's was not for me. It should be part of ESO, but I would like there to be a really good reason to join either of them. Not just for the sake of killing NPC's or stealing loot.

What exactly do you mean by a "really good reason?" Someone wants to experience the content and have access to the skill trees. How is that not a good enough reason?

For the sake of role playing, my character needs a good reason. I have no problem skipping the content and joining the guard. Say King Emeric has something stolen by the thieves guild and the only way for my character to get it back is to join the theives guild or join the guard and hunt the thieves guild down.

dagnome · May 2014

I'm looking forward to slaughtering countless NPC's and getting the "You have killed a vital NPC and cannot finish the main story" in the bottom left of my screen.

zhevon · May 2014

Hell, the justice stuff barely worked in Oblivion, and Skyrim (don't remember Morrowind) - so how the hell is it supposed to work in an MMO. Just saying.

PBpsy · May 2014

No justice ?
If there is no justice how am I going to be able to do crime?

Gedalya · May 2014

Seraseth wrote: »

Can I have the old Daggerfall guards all clustered around going 'Halt! Halt! Halt! Halt!'

That was the best part!

Lulz

Malkavianqueen · May 2014

I'm basically waiting for this system so I can start subbing. ^__^ It just doesn't feel as much of an Elder Scrolls game without it. I prefer thiefy/assassin characters. I will spend plenty of time happily pickpocketing NPCs for their one gold probably.

Gedalya · May 2014

I agree that this needs to be approached delicately as this is an MMO; I suggest a Beta system like in WoT and WoW where ideas can be tested.

kargen27 · May 2014

I could see fines or penalties for stealing from shops right in front of the owner. You should at least have to be sneaky about it. Same for houses I guess. Going through someones dressers and nightstands while they are in the room sweeping the floor and they don't even say anything seems a bit silly. They could at least yell for help and get you tossed out on the street.
I would like to see some locked houses that have to be picked to get in. If you fail to pick the lock the first time nothing happens and you could go about your day. If you fail a 2nd time you are caught and are escorted to the city gates, maybe told not to come back for a small period of time (game time). Get inside and you are free to loot all you can.
And I should be run out of town all the time for all the chickens I am killing so I can go fishing. People shouldn't just stand around and watch you kill and gut their chickens.
Not sure how a jail would work but maybe a small fine and sending you to the nearest (or farthest for serious crimes) Wayshrine with a warning to not return for a while might be good.
Was thinking a bounty system for those who kill NPCs might be cool, but I can see that being taken advantage of if the bounty is more than any penalty the killer receives.
For stealing in front of NPCs even if it is just sending you to the front gate and letting you right back in at least that is something. The NPCs shouldn't just stand there while you sack the place.

KingRebz · May 2014

man i can just imagine a bunch of people killing all the random npcs in Davons watch and surviving against the guards for as long as they can loool that should be crazy fun!