No Justice please

Rotherhans

A quote from the May 1st announcement:
A justice system—steal from and kill NPCs and deal with the consequences if you are caught

So who else is a bit worried about this?
Sounds great, on the first read. But then one starts to wonder.

Not everything that works in a single player game does fit that well into the MMO gameplay.
And I fear this is one of the occasions where the probability for an arrow to the knee is overwhelmingly high. Similar to when ZMax broke the story flow by giving us the "freedom" to go back to the starter islands.

Again, we don´t really know what and how exactly justice is going to work.
But anything that changes the current somewhat chaotic "looting freedom" can simply by definition be nothing but a biga.. pain in the buttocks.

LadyChaos

it was a huge part of the ES game-play franchise, I cannot see a reason to abandon it lightly. We don't know what the penalties are. It was a pita to not be able to go to a city in skyrim until you paid the fine etc. I think it's more important to make the punishments fit than to abandon a large portion of the franchise history.

Nox_Aeterna

Well , lets be resonable , this is a MMO , they cant really just make it like a single player ES , otherwise , will they also give people a command panel where we can just revive and spawn any NPC we like. Or complete any quest without ever even being there?

The point is , im certain there will be limits to this , kill NPCs thing. Like for an example , killing only NPC without a name , would be resonable for an example.

Seraseth

Can I have the old Daggerfall guards all clustered around going 'Halt! Halt! Halt! Halt!'

That was the best part!

Saihung423

Can't wait. Sure there will be bugs to be worked out, but I look forward to people running out of a city with guards and angry chickens in pursuit.

Natjur

The Motif farmers getting called thief and killed\arrested.... will be interesting. Time to stock up on provisioner parts before they become hard to farm as they are classed as thief. Having all loot 'marked' as stolen, so you can only sell it to the thief's guild....

It will be an interesting change, wonder what level the guard will be, or if it will be an 'instance' knock out and in jail.

As they would not want people farming guards, I would guess its an 'instance' knock out if they get to you. Wonder if they will arrest Stage 3 & 4 vampires too.

We will need a volume setting for the guards yelling 'Halt!' as there will be so many thief's it will kill my ears.

nerevarine1138

We need a disagree button for posts like this. The justice system has been an integral part of the Elder Scrolls series. Will it be challenging to implement in an MMO? Sure. Does that mean they shouldn't do it? Also, no.

driosketch

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Well , lets be resonable , this is a MMO , they cant really just make it like a single player ES , otherwise , will they also give people a command panel where we can just revive and spawn any NPC we like. Or complete any quest without ever even being there?

The point is , im certain there will be limits to this , kill NPCs thing. Like for an example , killing only NPC without a name , would be resonable for an example.

That pretty much. All the merchant and quest NPCs would need to be essential. I'm on the fence about the named NPCs that exist for atmosphere, but you could attack the generic NPCs, Lion Guard, Dock Worker, ect. This way you not only don't interfere with the game experience of others, but it doesn't feel as cheap when generic NPCs respawn as it would when those chatterbox NPCs come back to life 30 secs after you kill them. (You know the ones.)

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Sounds cool but I have to wait and see how its implemented.

Lazarus_Long

I think it's a bit late to be saying no, and even if it wasn't I bet it would come anyway because some people love GTA so much they feel the need to play GTH. XD

OK, seriously though. You are right we don't know the big picture yet so let's not rush to judgement. I think the devs have earned a bit of faith from us, even if others will disagree.

I personally hope it leans heavily on the side of justice and not crime. I hope for major long term (as in months at least) consequences for being a known criminal. I also hope they do things like lower PvE and PvP quest rewards based on the severity of your crimes until you face justice. After all, there is a war on and enemy agents are causing enough trouble as it is. Why go easy on those that seek to aid them by sowing the seeds of chaos across the land?

Shimond

Who's to say they're altering existing content and not just adding new things for you to steal and get caught stealing? They may be fine letting you pilfer people's desks and add in unique containers (with more valuable loot) to work in this system.

Kadigan

Keep in mind that they'll be testing new content fairly extensively before it goes live to the paying customers, meaning that if there's a problem with the change in gameplay they'll likely hear about it from the testers first.

sociald100ub17_ESO

They just need to make sure this is 'thoroughly' tested on the test server before putting it into the live game to work out any bugs and exploits and get rid of them

Jeremy

Rotherhans wrote: »

A quote from the May 1st announcement:
A justice system—steal from and kill NPCs and deal with the consequences if you are caught

So who else is a bit worried about this?
Sounds great, on the first read. But then one starts to wonder.

Not everything that works in a single player game does fit that well into the MMO gameplay.
And I fear this is one of the occasions where the probability for an arrow to the knee is overwhelmingly high. Similar to when ZMax broke the story flow by giving us the "freedom" to go back to the starter islands.

Again, we don´t really know what and how exactly justice is going to work.
But anything that changes the current somewhat chaotic "looting freedom" can simply by definition be nothing but a biga.. pain in the buttocks.

I'm new to the Elder Scrolls series so this kind of gameplay would be new to me and I've already met quite a few NPCs I wouldn't mind killing. So I like it

Greydog

I could get used to it if I get to hunt bounties

nudel

The justice system is something I desperately want to see come to this game.

There are a few elegant ways this could be implemented, none of which would affect other players' playthroughs:

Option A: Killing and robbing is limited to certain non-essential random encounter NPCs. This already occurs in game now with examples like using the Intimidate perk on unnamed merchants who appear randomly in the world to rob them. You must have the perk to even see this ability as an option in the dialogue screen. No one else will miss the unnamed nonessential NPC you just robbed/ killed.

Option B: Phase the NPC being robbed/ killed.

• Player A robbed the banker in Daggerfall (b/c screw that banker) and cannot interact with her anymore because that banker doesn't trust Player A. Player A moves onto Wayrest, happy that he/she never has to deal with the Daggerfall banker again.
• Player B really hates the banker in Daggerfall. Stealing is not enough, Player B kills her. Obviously Player B cannot interact with her anymore and she will no longer ever appear in the world for him/her.
• Player C is an innocent bystander who may not like the banker but doesn't want to hurt anyone (alternatively Player C is a completionist and doesn't want to miss a quest/ achievement). Player C does not kill or rob the banker. Player A and B run up and do their dirty work. However Player C is blissfully unaware of what happened because the banker is still alive and well and quite content to prattle on endlessly to Player C about borrowers and lenders. Player C may be confused as to why Player A was arrested and Player B slain by the guards for resisting arrest. However, neither Player A nor Player B's interactions or choices directly affected Player C. Everyone wins.

Option B already exists in the game in small samples. For instance,

During a quest in Glenumbra, I chose to kill the Duke of Camlorn while my SO chose to cure him. Gloria died for him and lived for me. The Duke died for me and lived for him. In a later quest, we were in the same area and could see each other and interact (phased with each other) however the Duke appeared on his screen and was absent on mine. Gloria appeared on my screen and was absent on his. On my screen, he looked like he was standing in place, staring off into nothing and vice versa. Those NPCs where phased for us. I could talk to Gloria and he could talk to the Duke, but neither of us could interact with or see the NPC that we had chosen to die.

Personally I'm hoping for Option B as it offers a lot of replayability and fun roleplaying. Option A can work too. It's just not nearly as free form.

Iago

I miss going out and collecting bounties on the bandit leaders in Skyrim, I also miss the random encounters with highwaymen.

Icy

EveOnline has a system where in the PvE areas, those players who commit crimes are flagged for PvP, so anyone can attack them, even in a nominally "safe" area.

That could be an interesting way of implementing a justice system.

Also, STOP KILLING THE GUAR! They are friendly and nice animals, and you're damaging some poor NPC farmer's livelihood. That should definitely be punished under a justice system. ^_^

the_Burne

Can we kick in doors and steal individual books to resell too please.. forget killing stupid npc's... lol

Corithna

There are a lot of answers that the available tech can offer up. There have been some really good examples of how this might be carried out, right here in this thread. I can't imagine anyone who is familiar with TES titles not remembering the warnings to put away the weapon as the player enters town. Or the amount of mayhem that could ensue when caught doing something naughty. I can't imagine that with this team of developers that the ways and means of doing this right were not one of the first things they worked out systematically. For most TES fans that was probably one of the first thoughts in their minds was how this kind of game play could take place in a multiplayer environment. I know it was mine.

I can understand the OP's concerns however, given the amount of abuse our gaming community is capable of dishing out at any given time. None the less I am very much looking forward to this, as I have since first hearing of it during beta testing. My biggest hope is that the justice system gets rolled into the skills system with abilities to enhance with practice and patience. Not to mention bonus passives, and maybe even a few combat skills to boot.

Elvent

Rotherhans wrote: »

Not everything that works in a single player game does fit that well into the MMO gameplay.

If done right it can. I also think justice system will add more to the Elder Scrolls feel of the game which I feel is lacking.

Darrett

Everyone is assuming this applies to every NPC. It's far more likely there are specific NPCs that can be killed as part of a quest.

I do hope the system will include severe penalties for being spotted by NPCs as a Vampire or Werewolf. Guards piling all over a stage 4 Vampire would be awesome.

rawne1980b16_ESO

I want a job as a guard.



Then I can follow shifty looking people around without looking shifty myself like I do now.

Rotherhans

Nice discussion!
I´m actually not even that skeptic about the whole NPC crime thing.

My main problem is simply the RNG we have to wade through to get a meaningful amount of mats, recipes even for provision crafting. Let alone the race motifs.

If obsessive looting wouldn´t be the only way to get these things, then I would have no problem keeping my urge to clean out other peoples nightstands in check.

But just yesterday I found my first blue provision recipe in some poor guar herder´s desk.
Quite frankly this gameplay design has to be looked at first, before they start inventing all kinds of exiting new things to make our MMO lives harder.

nerevarine1138

According to the AMA, players will also have the chance to become guards. Most exciting news since I learned that scotch is good for you.

tengri

Well, as long as there will be option to rat out other players I witnessed committing a crime... I want justice system! Ha!

Eris

Until we find out more specifics, I think it is way to early to be making any sort of request on the subject. You can take a lot from that one line, but most of what you think is interpretation and without details is all in our minds.

deathly809_ESO

Rotherhans wrote: »

A quote from the May 1st announcement:
A justice system—steal from and kill NPCs and deal with the consequences if you are caught

So who else is a bit worried about this?
Sounds great, on the first read. But then one starts to wonder.

Not everything that works in a single player game does fit that well into the MMO gameplay.
And I fear this is one of the occasions where the probability for an arrow to the knee is overwhelmingly high. Similar to when ZMax broke the story flow by giving us the "freedom" to go back to the starter islands.

Again, we don´t really know what and how exactly justice is going to work.
But anything that changes the current somewhat chaotic "looting freedom" can simply by definition be nothing but a biga.. pain in the buttocks.

STOP CRIMINAL SCUM!

Altheina

Justice system is going to be unique feature that aren't really found in many MMOs. While OP has valid point to worry about the implementation of it, we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out when Zenimax releases more info with regards to it as it stand right now we can only speculate...

Turial

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

According to the AMA, players will also have the chance to become guards. Most exciting news since I learned that scotch is good for you.

Mmmmm scotch.....

Rotherhans

deathly809_ESO wrote: »

Rotherhans wrote: »

"looting freedom"

STOP CRIMINAL SCUM!

Just remembered the reddit ama and wading through it.
Quite a few interesting ideas so far, though I can´t believe they will actually try to implement an Open World PvP.
Which is what this guard/bounty system basically amounts to.