Update 50 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Maintenance for the week of April 20:
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – April 20, 3:00AM EDT (7:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 20, 7:00 UTC (3:00AM EDT) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – April 20, 3:00AM EDT (7:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – April 20, 7:00 UTC (3:00AM EDT) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT)
We are people screaming in the desert
-
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rishikesa108 wrote: »Rishikesa108 wrote: »Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for your kind answer.
As you can read from many posts, many people would very much like a simple list of bugs awaiting repair, which is updated with the ever new known bugs and obviously contains a lot of "FIXED" about the fixed bugs. We know that no one is a god and therefore it takes time, work, effort and commitment to fix everything. But a simple answer of acknowledgment, awareness and scheduling of reported bugs, would be a great, great improvement.
So that we don't have to feel like people screaming in the desert ... give us this simple but useful gift.
So just for some context here, we have looked at this idea and would like to implement something like this in the future. However, we want to make sure it's something that we could do well and constantly maintain. Keeping track of bug lists are a large undertaking. But we are still keeping a bug list top of mind as we think about more ways to get information out to players and the infrastructure needed for maintain said list.
I'm taking this as a promise :-)))
And.....that is where problems start. People reading what an official type person says and interpreting it to fit their own bias/idea when it doesn't really do that.
There was no promise. "We have looked at this idea and would like to implement "something" like this in the future." does not in any way imply they will actually manage to do this. They may try. However, I'm going to guess they don't want to start this idea and find they don't have the time or enough people to keep a constant vigil on a bug list. If they would start a list and find it is too labor intensive to maintain it, well....Divines help them when they stop. The outraged ranting would instantly start, with OMG, TEH DEVS LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, ZOS HATES THEIR PLAYERS!!!!, DISRESPECTFUL AND DISGRACEFUL DEVS and so on. They know what happens when a maintenance period runs over the guesstimate they gave.
This doesn't sit right with me...
If they never promise anything then players can't be mad that they didn't uphold their promises?
... shouldn't there be promises? Shouldn't that accountability be there? When something needs doing, they ought to say they will do it. And if they don't? They ought to say sorry. They shouldn't purposefully be leaving themselves an out of "oh well we said we *might!*"
No, not really. For the sake of lawsuits and sanity they really shouldn't chisel in granite promises about anything. Things happen; software glitches, coders make mistakes, systems conflict, tech isn't able to support the feature, and basically, organic bovine-produced fertilizer results. Add in the chaos of players, and sometimes promises can't be kept. They promised a justice system, implemented the first part, and then found they couldn't implement the second part because they couldn't find a way the players wouldn't instantly exploit, which would ruin the game for many people. Many times we, the players, are why we can't have nice things. And yes, there have been threats of class action lawsuits because someone was upset about something about the game.
I would rather they say they do something and don't than dance around the idea of doing something for years and years while never saying anything solid about anything. I'm sure they can find a way to say they will do something without getting sued when they don't because things do indeed happen.
When you digitally sign the EULA you are agreeing that they can do or not do whatever they want with their game, and you can't do anything about it. So they can essentially do as they please.4 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'm sure we all agree that this is a bad thing, right? Even if it's unfortunately how it often works?But as customers we get what they decide we get and what is relevant.
This industry has a way of putting customers in a weird sort of peasant mentality, where the company is king and the customer should either accept whatever they do or leave the kingdom. No criticism allowed.
Its like the opposite extreme of the whole "customer is always right" thing, and it's no less destructive. We should be allowed to expect more from the company we're giving money to. ZOS has fallen well below the bar of acceptability imo.
Bowing down to whatever the industry forces upon us is how we got here. This is how we went from "horse armor" to loot boxes. And in this case its why ZOS gets away with such poor communication.
Again, not calling out the person who said this. What they said just reminded me of people who actually think these practices are "fine". They're not.Rishikesa108 wrote: »Rishikesa108 wrote: »Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for your kind answer.
As you can read from many posts, many people would very much like a simple list of bugs awaiting repair, which is updated with the ever new known bugs and obviously contains a lot of "FIXED" about the fixed bugs. We know that no one is a god and therefore it takes time, work, effort and commitment to fix everything. But a simple answer of acknowledgment, awareness and scheduling of reported bugs, would be a great, great improvement.
So that we don't have to feel like people screaming in the desert ... give us this simple but useful gift.
So just for some context here, we have looked at this idea and would like to implement something like this in the future. However, we want to make sure it's something that we could do well and constantly maintain. Keeping track of bug lists are a large undertaking. But we are still keeping a bug list top of mind as we think about more ways to get information out to players and the infrastructure needed for maintain said list.
I'm taking this as a promise :-)))
And.....that is where problems start. People reading what an official type person says and interpreting it to fit their own bias/idea when it doesn't really do that.
There was no promise. "We have looked at this idea and would like to implement "something" like this in the future." does not in any way imply they will actually manage to do this. They may try. However, I'm going to guess they don't want to start this idea and find they don't have the time or enough people to keep a constant vigil on a bug list. If they would start a list and find it is too labor intensive to maintain it, well....Divines help them when they stop. The outraged ranting would instantly start, with OMG, TEH DEVS LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, ZOS HATES THEIR PLAYERS!!!!, DISRESPECTFUL AND DISGRACEFUL DEVS and so on. They know what happens when a maintenance period runs over the guesstimate they gave.
This doesn't sit right with me...
If they never promise anything then players can't be mad that they didn't uphold their promises?
... shouldn't there be promises? Shouldn't that accountability be there? When something needs doing, they ought to say they will do it. And if they don't? They ought to say sorry. They shouldn't purposefully be leaving themselves an out of "oh well we said we *might!*"
No, not really. For the sake of lawsuits and sanity they really shouldn't chisel in granite promises about anything. Things happen; software glitches, coders make mistakes, systems conflict, tech isn't able to support the feature, and basically, organic bovine-produced fertilizer results. Add in the chaos of players, and sometimes promises can't be kept. They promised a justice system, implemented the first part, and then found they couldn't implement the second part because they couldn't find a way the players wouldn't instantly exploit, which would ruin the game for many people. Many times we, the players, are why we can't have nice things. And yes, there have been threats of class action lawsuits because someone was upset about something about the game.
I would rather they say they do something and don't than dance around the idea of doing something for years and years while never saying anything solid about anything. I'm sure they can find a way to say they will do something without getting sued when they don't because things do indeed happen.
When you digitally sign the EULA yo
u are agreeing that they can do or not do whatever they want with their game, and you can't do anything about it. So they can essentially do as they please.
Arent EULAs unenforceable? Maybe the US is an exception? I remember reading that they're on shaky legal ground, especially when it comes to the whole, "we can do whatever we want" parts. Either way, just because something is legal doesnt make it right.
As for actually suing, I agree with you here. Not because there's no case to be made, but because a lot of this just hasnt been tested in courts before, and because trying to sue a corporation is almost always untenable, even if you have a good case. Not saying corporations are above the law, but...yeah they kind of are.
That said, does anybody know of any times EULAs have been tested in court?Edited by psychotrip on September 3, 2022 11:05PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.3 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Rishikesa108 wrote: »Rishikesa108 wrote: »Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for your kind answer.
As you can read from many posts, many people would very much like a simple list of bugs awaiting repair, which is updated with the ever new known bugs and obviously contains a lot of "FIXED" about the fixed bugs. We know that no one is a god and therefore it takes time, work, effort and commitment to fix everything. But a simple answer of acknowledgment, awareness and scheduling of reported bugs, would be a great, great improvement.
So that we don't have to feel like people screaming in the desert ... give us this simple but useful gift.
So just for some context here, we have looked at this idea and would like to implement something like this in the future. However, we want to make sure it's something that we could do well and constantly maintain. Keeping track of bug lists are a large undertaking. But we are still keeping a bug list top of mind as we think about more ways to get information out to players and the infrastructure needed for maintain said list.
I'm taking this as a promise :-)))
And.....that is where problems start. People reading what an official type person says and interpreting it to fit their own bias/idea when it doesn't really do that.
There was no promise. "We have looked at this idea and would like to implement "something" like this in the future." does not in any way imply they will actually manage to do this. They may try. However, I'm going to guess they don't want to start this idea and find they don't have the time or enough people to keep a constant vigil on a bug list. If they would start a list and find it is too labor intensive to maintain it, well....Divines help them when they stop. The outraged ranting would instantly start, with OMG, TEH DEVS LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, ZOS HATES THEIR PLAYERS!!!!, DISRESPECTFUL AND DISGRACEFUL DEVS and so on. They know what happens when a maintenance period runs over the guesstimate they gave.
This doesn't sit right with me...
If they never promise anything then players can't be mad that they didn't uphold their promises?
... shouldn't there be promises? Shouldn't that accountability be there? When something needs doing, they ought to say they will do it. And if they don't? They ought to say sorry. They shouldn't purposefully be leaving themselves an out of "oh well we said we *might!*"
No, not really. For the sake of lawsuits and sanity they really shouldn't chisel in granite promises about anything. Things happen; software glitches, coders make mistakes, systems conflict, tech isn't able to support the feature, and basically, organic bovine-produced fertilizer results. Add in the chaos of players, and sometimes promises can't be kept. They promised a justice system, implemented the first part, and then found they couldn't implement the second part because they couldn't find a way the players wouldn't instantly exploit, which would ruin the game for many people. Many times we, the players, are why we can't have nice things. And yes, there have been threats of class action lawsuits because someone was upset about something about the game.
I work with enterprise software vendors all the time, where the tools they develop cost millions, and the potential damages that could be alleged for unfulfilled promises is much higher because their large enterprise customers depend on the software.
I also have a a good bit of experience with breach of contract claims and how those play out. Dishonesty in advertising, including showing footage that is not in-game footage as if it were (as alleged in the Gearbox situation), is a completely different matter from the statements/projections/estimates that are made in normal, expected, modern development practices. In fact, any development team today NOT sharing a roadmap, not using an issue tracker that is shared with users (or completely public, with only security-related issues marked as private), not regularly communicating with users (via scrum or GitHub or whatever makes sense for the type of software and situation) would be considered not meeting the standard of care.
It’s 2022. The days from the 90s when we developers did mysterious things the peon users rarely dared to ask about or intrude upon are over, and good riddance. Agile and scrum and lean are all things for good reasons.8 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭psychotrip wrote: »
I'm sure we all agree that this is a bad thing, right? Even if it's unfortunately how it often works?But as customers we get what they decide we get and what is relevant.
This industry has a way of putting customers in a weird sort of peasant mentality, where the company is king and the customer should either accept whatever they do or leave the kingdom. No criticism allowed.
Its like the opposite extreme of the whole "customer is always right" thing, and it's no less destructive. We should be allowed to expect more from the company we're giving money to. ZOS has fallen well below the bar of acceptability imo.
Bowing down to whatever the industry forces upon us is how we got here. This is how we went from "horse armor" to loot boxes. And in this case its why ZOS gets away with such poor communication.
Again, not calling out the person who said this. What they said just reminded me of people who actually think these practices are "fine". They're not.Rishikesa108 wrote: »Rishikesa108 wrote: »Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for your kind answer.
As you can read from many posts, many people would very much like a simple list of bugs awaiting repair, which is updated with the ever new known bugs and obviously contains a lot of "FIXED" about the fixed bugs. We know that no one is a god and therefore it takes time, work, effort and commitment to fix everything. But a simple answer of acknowledgment, awareness and scheduling of reported bugs, would be a great, great improvement.
So that we don't have to feel like people screaming in the desert ... give us this simple but useful gift.
So just for some context here, we have looked at this idea and would like to implement something like this in the future. However, we want to make sure it's something that we could do well and constantly maintain. Keeping track of bug lists are a large undertaking. But we are still keeping a bug list top of mind as we think about more ways to get information out to players and the infrastructure needed for maintain said list.
I'm taking this as a promise :-)))
And.....that is where problems start. People reading what an official type person says and interpreting it to fit their own bias/idea when it doesn't really do that.
There was no promise. "We have looked at this idea and would like to implement "something" like this in the future." does not in any way imply they will actually manage to do this. They may try. However, I'm going to guess they don't want to start this idea and find they don't have the time or enough people to keep a constant vigil on a bug list. If they would start a list and find it is too labor intensive to maintain it, well....Divines help them when they stop. The outraged ranting would instantly start, with OMG, TEH DEVS LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, ZOS HATES THEIR PLAYERS!!!!, DISRESPECTFUL AND DISGRACEFUL DEVS and so on. They know what happens when a maintenance period runs over the guesstimate they gave.
This doesn't sit right with me...
If they never promise anything then players can't be mad that they didn't uphold their promises?
... shouldn't there be promises? Shouldn't that accountability be there? When something needs doing, they ought to say they will do it. And if they don't? They ought to say sorry. They shouldn't purposefully be leaving themselves an out of "oh well we said we *might!*"
No, not really. For the sake of lawsuits and sanity they really shouldn't chisel in granite promises about anything. Things happen; software glitches, coders make mistakes, systems conflict, tech isn't able to support the feature, and basically, organic bovine-produced fertilizer results. Add in the chaos of players, and sometimes promises can't be kept. They promised a justice system, implemented the first part, and then found they couldn't implement the second part because they couldn't find a way the players wouldn't instantly exploit, which would ruin the game for many people. Many times we, the players, are why we can't have nice things. And yes, there have been threats of class action lawsuits because someone was upset about something about the game.
I would rather they say they do something and don't than dance around the idea of doing something for years and years while never saying anything solid about anything. I'm sure they can find a way to say they will do something without getting sued when they don't because things do indeed happen.
When you digitally sign the EULA yo
u are agreeing that they can do or not do whatever they want with their game, and you can't do anything about it. So they can essentially do as they please.
Arent EULAs unenforceable? Maybe the US is an exception? I remember reading that they're on shaky legal ground, especially when it comes to the whole, "we can do whatever we want" parts. Either way, just because something is legal doesnt make it right.
As for actually suing, I agree with you here. Not because there's no case to be made, but because a lot of this just hasnt been tested in courts before, and because trying to sue a corporation is almost always untenable, even if you have a good case. Not saying corporations are above the law, but...yeah they kind of are.
That said, does anybody know of any times EULAs have been tested in court?
EULA's are enforceable, but also challengeable. Like any other civil agreement they are bound by the laws of what ever country they are agreed to in.
An EULA that has a potentially illegal proposition in it would could go to court to fight that one proposition, but that doesn't negate an entire agreement. You would have to explain in court what part of the agreement is illegal and what laws specifically are being contradicted by the agreement.
Saying "I don't like it" or " it's not fair" after signing an agreement is not really a good legal argument.0 -
UnabashedlyHonest✭✭✭✭✭ZOS simply is not a customer service oriented company. They do the minimum interactions necessary to keep the game going and the player base active. That's it. (this is not bashing the company, it's just being honest, but we'll see what happens now)4
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_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭Its worse than that ^^ they also know fine well they have a broken product that has a great open world veneer that hides a broken end game (housing, wvw, bg, balancing, performance, game engine), and they would rather crudely drive content through introduction of temp overpowered sets rather than invest properly. Its disgusting.4
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Kingsindarkness✭✭✭✭✭_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »Its worse than that ^^ they also know fine well they have a broken product that has a great open world veneer that hides a broken end game (housing, wvw, bg, balancing, performance, game engine), and they would rather crudely drive content through introduction of temp overpowered sets rather than invest properly. Its disgusting.
Really?
At end game my friends and I are Roleplaying that we are Travelling Bards...and every evening we have a dance party at Pantherfang chapel. It's lots of fun.
2 -
Amottica✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rishikesa108 wrote: »You could imagine the sheer to-do list the team already has.
You could imagine adding more to it is impractical at times.
You could imagine a Company making verbal acknowledgements that they will do every little thing the community wants could land them in PR Nightmares if they can't deliver in a time the community deems reasonable.
This is your isolated opinion :-) Thanks for that
The thoughts they shared have merit. I’d suggest it is not a good idea to dismiss the thoughts people share.
The reality is there are bugs in every game that are never fixed. Most are annoying but not game breaking.
However, I agree that Zenimax does seem to ignore some bugs that are more serious. I personally think the “dev tracker” is a great design that allows things to fall into the cracks as it not easy to track anything that hasn’t been bumped recently.0 -
psychotrip✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rishikesa108 wrote: »Rishikesa108 wrote: »Thanks @ZOS_Kevin for your kind answer.
As you can read from many posts, many people would very much like a simple list of bugs awaiting repair, which is updated with the ever new known bugs and obviously contains a lot of "FIXED" about the fixed bugs. We know that no one is a god and therefore it takes time, work, effort and commitment to fix everything. But a simple answer of acknowledgment, awareness and scheduling of reported bugs, would be a great, great improvement.
So that we don't have to feel like people screaming in the desert ... give us this simple but useful gift.
So just for some context here, we have looked at this idea and would like to implement something like this in the future. However, we want to make sure it's something that we could do well and constantly maintain. Keeping track of bug lists are a large undertaking. But we are still keeping a bug list top of mind as we think about more ways to get information out to players and the infrastructure needed for maintain said list.
I'm taking this as a promise :-)))
And.....that is where problems start. People reading what an official type person says and interpreting it to fit their own bias/idea when it doesn't really do that.
There was no promise. "We have looked at this idea and would like to implement "something" like this in the future." does not in any way imply they will actually manage to do this. They may try. However, I'm going to guess they don't want to start this idea and find they don't have the time or enough people to keep a constant vigil on a bug list. If they would start a list and find it is too labor intensive to maintain it, well....Divines help them when they stop. The outraged ranting would instantly start, with OMG, TEH DEVS LIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, ZOS HATES THEIR PLAYERS!!!!, DISRESPECTFUL AND DISGRACEFUL DEVS and so on. They know what happens when a maintenance period runs over the guesstimate they gave.
This doesn't sit right with me...
If they never promise anything then players can't be mad that they didn't uphold their promises?
... shouldn't there be promises? Shouldn't that accountability be there? When something needs doing, they ought to say they will do it. And if they don't? They ought to say sorry. They shouldn't purposefully be leaving themselves an out of "oh well we said we *might!*"
No, not really. For the sake of lawsuits and sanity they really shouldn't chisel in granite promises about anything. Things happen; software glitches, coders make mistakes, systems conflict, tech isn't able to support the feature, and basically, organic bovine-produced fertilizer results. Add in the chaos of players, and sometimes promises can't be kept. They promised a justice system, implemented the first part, and then found they couldn't implement the second part because they couldn't find a way the players wouldn't instantly exploit, which would ruin the game for many people. Many times we, the players, are why we can't have nice things. And yes, there have been threats of class action lawsuits because someone was upset about something about the game.
I work with enterprise software vendors all the time, where the tools they develop cost millions, and the potential damages that could be alleged for unfulfilled promises is much higher because their large enterprise customers depend on the software.
I also have a a good bit of experience with breach of contract claims and how those play out. Dishonesty in advertising, including showing footage that is not in-game footage as if it were (as alleged in the Gearbox situation), is a completely different matter from the statements/projections/estimates that are made in normal, expected, modern development practices. In fact, any development team today NOT sharing a roadmap, not using an issue tracker that is shared with users (or completely public, with only security-related issues marked as private), not regularly communicating with users (via scrum or GitHub or whatever makes sense for the type of software and situation) would be considered not meeting the standard of care.
It’s 2022. The days from the 90s when we developers did mysterious things the peon users rarely dared to ask about or intrude upon are over, and good riddance. Agile and scrum and lean are all things for good reasons.
THANK YOU! We need more business folks who ARENT part of gaming to remind us how ACTUAL businesses are supposed to work.
[snip]
Demand better, people!
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on September 4, 2022 5:55PMNo one is saying there aren't multiple interpretations of the lore, and we're not arguing that ESO did it "wrong".
We're arguing that they decided to go for the most boring, mundane, seen-before interpretation possible. Like they almost always do, unless they can ride on the coat-tails of past games.4 -
_adhyffbjjjf12✭✭✭✭✭Kingsindarkness wrote: »_adhyffbjjjf12 wrote: »Its worse than that ^^ they also know fine well they have a broken product that has a great open world veneer that hides a broken end game (housing, wvw, bg, balancing, performance, game engine), and they would rather crudely drive content through introduction of temp overpowered sets rather than invest properly. Its disgusting.
Really?
At end game my friends and I are Roleplaying that we are Travelling Bards...and every evening we have a dance party at Pantherfang chapel. It's lots of fun.
which is the open world element of Eso..........0 -
Gandalf_72✭✭✭✭Rishikesa108 wrote: »You could imagine the sheer to-do list the team already has.
You could imagine adding more to it is impractical at times.
You could imagine a Company making verbal acknowledgements that they will do every little thing the community wants could land them in PR Nightmares if they can't deliver in a time the community deems reasonable.
This is your isolated opinion :-) Thanks for that
Not quite so isolated.
Have you ever noticed what happens with the maintenance notices? They give a time frame, like 6 a.m. to 10 a.m.; and at approximately 10:00:45 the OMG ZOS SAID 10 A.M. WHY ISN'T THE SERVER UP YET??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! and OMG ANOTHER EXTENDED MAINTENANCE, WHY ZOS WHY DO YOU HATE THE PLAYERS!!!!!!!!!!! and so on shows up on the forums. Happens quite frequently, really. Any time they give a time and because computers are computers stuff out of human control happens, they hear about it.
As today ?
PC | EU- My ESO gallery
- Tamriel: The Elder Scrolls Online (by Ra'Shtar)
- ESO pics (by sean.plackerb14_ESO)
- ESO is stunningly beautiful
- ESO Beauty Pageant
- Show your character!
- People choosing to play the game differently to you are not wrong, bad, stupid or playing too much, or too little. They are just playing it differently to you, they don't need you to "correct" them. No one is playing the game wrong unless they are cheating or hurting others.
1 -
Battle_Hymn✭✭✭@Rishikesa108 The mods job is to moderate the forum. If they see trends with bugs, they to report, but if you want assistance with bugs, please ping myself or another community manager. We send the bugs we see noted to the dev team for them to tackle as they can. And we follow up when the Dev team has solutions or updates on progress. We understand there are bugs players are encountering. These do take time to address and resolve, especially between launch cycles for PC and console. Thanks for your continued patience.
So, how about that continuous heavy attack bug that is plaguing controller users on PC. The one that I have reported multiple times in-game and on the forums and still hasn't been fixed for years.1