Sounds like you have also played for a some time in game!

I've played since beta 2014 and got to know some top level players as friends/mentors as they have moved on up to some of the high achievements and setting world records in their respective guilds.

ESO started out with a ton of real pro players from other MMOs obvioulsy. The game testers were all top level players.

Guilds like HODOR on PC/EU (Alcast still a big game contributor) and the now defunct, but once prmier guild, ENTROPY RISING on PC/NA were all top nothc mentors helping the brand new playerbase get to endgame.

Remember, Craglorn was only the 3 trials at that time. We had DSA as an arena--- much harder then, but provided great basic training ground for much of the mechanics in the base game!

Getting players through DSA was considered a standard for moving into endgame.

We also had for several years, the very pro website, TAMRIEL FOUNDRY-- started by @Atropos ( Andrew).

On PC, early on, there was a guild called The Crescent Tavern, one of the first hard vet content guilds. One of the req for new members was a reflex test on some website to see if you scored high on dexterity and situational awareness.

So, yeah... ESO has had many teachers over the years! Many good ones still here, but I still feel POWER creep and the never ending quest to achievew the highest comepetitive DPS possible at the expense of narrowing the end game player base into near extinction has been collaborative between ZOS and the more influential pro player base for top tier sets, procs, healers that MUSY contributew to highets dps possible. Tanks havng to wear a gazillion different loadout sets and the endless grind to obtain all those in perfect trait......

lol, I'm exhausted even writing all that! My espresso kicked in.

My point is NOT to criticize, but to show some perspective.

I feel you on the TRIFECTA end of the game, but like I say, the game needs to have a culture again where we are one large tent commujnity and not broken into these false groups: elite vs casuals, mid players in guilds vs single player solo ppl, etc.

I feel, we all, as ESO levers of the game itself, have that basic repsect for eachother somewhere within.

This whole update35 thing has brought all our feelings up and out on the table.

A good time to heal, imo.

Great being able to chat here, btw, in a civil convo.

Much appreciate that!

keto

crazyivanovic wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

Most vet endgame CAN be done with players having lower parses than 90k min, and, yes, the fights will take a bit longer but thats what is needed sometimes. Teaching isn't a 'one& done' type of skill.

More players at the 60, 70, 80k DPS level need to be admitted into hard content progression raid groups.

If CARRY groups (not a fan!) can manage to take players through completion runs for endgame hard content for gold, etc.....

then, do the math its possible for same group composition does NOT require all dps on team to have "highest DPS"

The game needs more pro players that are willing to host them--- host/leads with the time & patience to allow for new player learning curves. TEACHER personalities!

They are hard to come by irl these days as well.

You know, those teacher personalities were there. Lots of training guilds and training groups in the more top end raiding groups because that is how you get players to the required levels. Google for "project vitality" and what happened there. More than 220 raidleads (across platforms and servers!) and hundreds of vet raids every week to train new players. Now, thanks for U35, the number of raidleads is down to about 60. Not just because the changes are bad but also because of change fatigue. Too much change in too little time. So yeah, the ZOS team appears to kill of their teacher personalities.

Regarding carrying a low DPS player through a raid: If you are running for a trifecta it will not do to take on a new player from craglorn, this is months of work in that very constallation of players to get there. And yes, the faster the fights are over, the easier it is. Which means for DDs the damage dealt (under stress!) does matter. The better the buffs from supports are, the better it is. For tanks they need to be stable and great at de-buffing the boss.

Usually in raid groups people are looking at the logs, trying to help improve their teammates. But if they are not trying to improve they are keeping back the rest of the team. And yeah, it is fair to say "I want to play the char this way" but if you cannot keep up with the requirements to get the trifecta, then the progression group might not be right.

Everything I wrote above btw is NOT about clearing content (that is still possible with U35 without changing setups), it really is about working towards trifectas.

PS: Regarding the carry groups: if it gets to trifectas the people usually have to give their account to another player because there is no trust in that original player not to die and thus take dozens of tries (or the damage missing would have too much impact).

keto3000 wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

This is, of course, true and I've experienced the thrill of success and the womp womp of dungeon fails since game started! just like any MMO.

But, the math does allow for lower than 90K DPS players to complete, if they get to know the mechanics well with practice. Def might take longer but teaching involves a lotta of love. We definitely need more teachers-- and Patience in the world and... in ESO.

90k allows you to complete what? And how do you know which groups have 90k and which don't?

DPS doesn’t matter that much if you have a good tank and a good healer. I think what matters more than DPS is survivability. There is a base level amount of damage players need to do to not make passing DSA or a dungeon take a dreadfully long time, but you don’t need top-tier DPS to play any of the content. Aiming for Uber-high DPS is understandable for competitive trial groups but that’s where and why I like PvP, you need to have survivability and sustain on top of having enough DPS to kill enemy players. PvP has taught me a lot about the game’s mechs in terms of gameplay. I think more players should PvP if they want to improve overall with the game in terms of PvE.

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

It makes all that effort feel like a complete waste of time. To put it in perspective, how much dps would maximum cp add to a character? 20% maybe more, maybe less. Taking away 20% is like taking the entire cp system and tossing it away in one update and telling players "you can still clear the content without it". Sure they can, but the mental and emotional aspect can't be quantified on any spreadsheet.

Yes, much of the content can still be cleared. It will very likely be slower or harder now. If you were just on the borderline between completion and failure, you may very well be failing repeatedly now. Which content this is will vary from player to player, but outside of the tip top, whatever content was the maximum difficulty you were clearing before, you're not doing it now without more work put into gearing and skilling which takes time... a lot more time than it takes to nerf us.

redspecter23 wrote: »

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

And in one update they can accidentally give you 20% by mistake too. I've seen nothing yet to suggest any numbers are lower than Elsweyr period.

It’s not just damage that was nerfed; It was the way the game plays as well, I quit playing because of how bad warden feels to play now, I am playing WoW again for the first time in years, if they fix it I will probably come back

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Dps check mechanics has entered the chat.

I say its more that if you have difficult to handle mechanics you get more of them with lower group dps.
This is true from world bosses to trials.

redspecter23 wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

And in one update they can accidentally give you 20% by mistake too. I've seen nothing yet to suggest any numbers are lower than Elsweyr period.

That might even be true, but my point was that player perception, morale and trust means a lot. When week 1 came around and the intentions were stated, it was crushing to many players. Some of those changes were rolled back a bit, but it doesn't change the initial intent. Players felt they were being punished for being good. Even mid tier players were being targetted with hits. They weren't clearing vet HM trials. From their perspective, why would they need such heavy handed nerfs?

The spreadsheets said so. Spreadsheets don't have feelings. They don't see their friends lose faith and leave. They don't count guilds falling apart. They don't hear the discussions that happen in discord because they get censored here. These are concerns that never got addressed and based on communication (or lack thereof), it's just acceptable attrition. My friends are not just "acceptable attrition" and I like to feel respected and feel like the game has a promising future. I'd like to recommend this to friends with a straight face and tell them it's an amazing experience. I can't do that honestly at the moment. ZOS can put that anecdotal experience on their spreadsheet.

This.
We play games to have fun, so our "anecdotal experience" is as important (or even more important) than ZOS' idea of balance. Who cares if the game is more balanced from their theoretical perspective if it's not fun to play anymore?