Do DPS numbers really matter that much? If the boss dies..

Forfold

Seeing a lot of disdain for the changes in u35. I'm on console so I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I'm trying to stay neutral until I get a chance to play it myself.

Personally, I don't see an issue with this change. I stopped playing ESO for awhile because I didn't like having to swap weapons so frequently for upkeep. I prefer playing characters with DoTs. Having longer dots means I can focus on my spammables more, and less time using my GCD to weapon swap, right? DPS numbers were flattened across the board. If we accept the new norm (stat squishes are a thing, as they always have been for various games- I see this as a similar thing), and the bosses still die, what's the issue?

Dr_Con

The notion I get from others is that it's like going from a bicycle to a tricycle.

sbr32

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

alanmatillab16_ESO

sbr32 wrote: »

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

Then you realise that making pugs with "link achiev or no invite" in a game where people bought achievements wasn't the best option.

sbr32

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

Then you realise that making pugs with "link achiev or no invite" in a game where people bought achievements wasn't the best option.

Then the solution seems to be not making pugs, and only playing with people in your closed circle, giving fewer people the chance to play and learn.

Amottica

If a group struggled to kill a boss before the update and after the changes they are unable to kill the boss, then the situation is the bar has been raised.

If this situation is widespread and the goal of the update was to make content more accessible, then we fell short of the goal. If this is not widespread, then there is no issue.

Forfold

sbr32 wrote: »

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? [..] Then what?

So this is happening? Eep. Really was hoping that wasn't the case and people were just upset about lower numbers than before.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Dps check mechanics has entered the chat.

Taggund

If it takes twice as long, it is not fun. I almost quit one boss fight in the middle because it was just too slow. I finished it, but have not done it again.

beer781993

Forfold wrote: »

Seeing a lot of disdain for the changes in u35. I'm on console so I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I'm trying to stay neutral until I get a chance to play it myself.

Personally, I don't see an issue with this change. I stopped playing ESO for awhile because I didn't like having to swap weapons so frequently for upkeep. I prefer playing characters with DoTs. Having longer dots means I can focus on my spammables more, and less time using my GCD to weapon swap, right? DPS numbers were flattened across the board. If we accept the new norm (stat squishes are a thing, as they always have been for various games- I see this as a similar thing), and the bosses still die, what's the issue?

There are trifectas in this game. Too low dmg= no speedrun, more mechanics --> more room for mistakes --> increasing the chance to die.

Conclusion low dmg is bad

They did only a 10% health nerf on bosses when we lost about 25 - 30 % dmg.

Some hardmodes are close to impossible now...

On PC you can switch in skills with addons and increase the burst and play trash Setups bc of addons.

On Ps5 most hardcore guilds were alrdy struggling with vrg hm last patch. Will be impossible when the patch hits consoles.

ZoS doesn't care, they will leave the game broken until next pts and revert many of this changes which makes this update even more pointless....

sbr32

Forfold wrote: »

> But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

So this is happening? Eep.

Yes, there are prog groups that have taken steps backwards due to U35 damage and healing nerfs. Some of those groups have quit and disbanded.

For the bigger picture there was some question during the PTS whether the final bosses in Rockgrove or DSR Hard Modes would even be theoretically possible with the changes, but I haven't cared enough to follow up on that.

phaneub17_ESO

They reduced both damage done and healing received, so now fights drag out longer which means you're taking more damage overall. Everyone has to up their game those who can't pull it anymore have to be dropped to create a tighter group and fewer new entries can get on the action unless someone else finally gives up. Vet trial groups will be less inclusive now because everyone has to pull equal weight, newcomers and average friends are going to have a harder time getting into it.

It is awesome! You'll love it! Especially if you're the one that gets cut.

Zephiran23

The problem with a lot of the DLC dungeons is that there are more mechanics. The longer the fight goes, the longer players have to keep performing whatever tasks keep them alive in those situations. 25 or 33% triggers aren't so important in that scenario, but more movement, dealing with adds, floor AOEs etc can become significant. As long as we aren't talking time based enrage timers the boss can still be killed

High DPS can blast past many of those issues. Low DPS is potentially going to get overwhelmed, or make 1 mistake too many/not react fast enough when the tank or healer can't save them. Medium DPS will probably be ok in most situations.

The issue becomes with lower DPS the stress level for boss fights goes up if you are struggling to complete each one. For score pushers etc they are more likely to be people that respond well to those challenges and have the knowledge and skills to adapt and welcome the chance to accomplish difficult tasks. Wipes aren't going to deter them from trying again. For low DPS, especially PUGs, barely scraping through will satisfy some and push others away from returning.

I don't have the numbers for any of that and there's a lot of generalising in what I've typed.

Forfold

Thanks y'all for the feedback. Here's to hoping and waiting for balance patches in the future. Time to do some fishing

Ragnarok0130

Forfold wrote: »

Seeing a lot of disdain for the changes in u35. I'm on console so I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but I'm trying to stay neutral until I get a chance to play it myself.

Personally, I don't see an issue with this change. I stopped playing ESO for awhile because I didn't like having to swap weapons so frequently for upkeep. I prefer playing characters with DoTs. Having longer dots means I can focus on my spammables more, and less time using my GCD to weapon swap, right? DPS numbers were flattened across the board. If we accept the new norm (stat squishes are a thing, as they always have been for various games- I see this as a similar thing), and the bosses still die, what's the issue?

Your dots may be longer but they're also weaker. If you're a templar your spammable is significantly weaker.

Jazraena

They're also not all longer. Durations are, contrary to ZOS' statements, more over the place, so chances are you'll have to invest more effort, not less, into your spinning plates.

Ghaleb

Forfold wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? [..] Then what?

So this is happening? Eep. Really was hoping that wasn't the case and people were just upset about lower numbers than before.

Yes. I will not spam my post to all fitting threads. So here goes a link: U35 Discussion

TL;DR: We cleaned vRG multiple times. After U35 not anymore.

Yes. There are team members who struggle to consider mechanics. But we managed anyhow in the past weeks to consistently clear vRG after not being able to the weeks prior. So, there was a positive development to be perceived.

But the at times substantial loss in DPS has led to us needing to play way more mechanics which raises the chance for human error. Or RNGesus at Bahsei with potentially stupid timing of Death Touch.

Forfold

Ghaleb wrote: »

Forfold wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? [..] Then what?

So this is happening? Eep. Really was hoping that wasn't the case and people were just upset about lower numbers than before.

Yes. I will not spam my post to all fitting threads. So here goes a link: U35 Discussion

TL;DR: We cleaned vRG multiple times. After U35 not anymore.

Yes. There are team members who struggle to consider mechanics. But we managed anyhow in the past weeks to consistently clear vRG after not being able to the weeks prior. So, there was a positive development to be perceived.

But the at times substantial loss in DPS has led to us needing to play way more mechanics which raises the chance for human error. Or RNGesus at Bahsei with potentially stupid timing of Death Touch.

Data is beautiful Thank you for the insight! I def see where you're all coming from now.

Kingsindarkness

This is what I know...

I play two other MMO's at the highest levels...there if you don't have the right gear trinkets food rotation you will fail, it's just sort of a natural fact that everyone understands

In ESO not so much, but the end game community is much much more vocal about it.

"But we killed the boss...look he's dead right over there...kick him if you don't believe me..."

"Yeah but you didn't do it right, you're a fake"<insert class here> /showers other player in expletives

It's just the quirky nature of the ESO community.

Asdara

@Forfold
i kinda understand what your point is, BUT in video games and gameplay it's all about how you feel.
When:

1. My dmg is reduced overall by 30%, i can't go through content like before, it feels so slow and clumsy now.
2. The healing i can do also go reduced, i can't survive most of the solo content i used to do.
3. Most health or dmg of the content hasn't changed, it also adds to all of this.

I usually never look at numbers, i mean i'm not competing at DPS like i did in wow back then.
But when my game feels significantly HARDER, SLOWER and that ZOS scream accessibility while doing absolutely the opposite, it gets me on my nerve.
So far all of this have be for nothing, and no one understand their goal.

stevenyaub16_ESO

Damage is fine. It only affects the latest two trial hardmodes.

Damage currently is still higher than it was at greymoor release so if you took a break you won't notice much. Dungeons are fine if not easier if you are end-gamer. Can still do 45k+ on a 3/6mill dummy so I'm happy.

The only people I feel sorry for are the ones where their playstyle/build has changed and the gameplay isn't fun anymore. (some templar mains for example.)

Jaimeh

DOT timers are all over the place now, nothing lines up, so you lose more damage when doing a static rotation versus a dynamic one, which wasn't so much the case before. This makes rotation more difficult, less fun, and having to always keep an eye on UI timers. And all this effort to yield less damage than before. I don't mind they wanted to nerf damage, it was needed to some extent, but messing up with how combat feels and make it clankier wasn't the way to go about it, not to mention that diversity in meta builds has shrunk even more now, all specs are using the exact same things, and are only differentiated by the choice of spammable. It's kind of ridiculous.

ccfeeling

https://youtu.be/nHp-mY7U6TY

120k ish demo , dps really huge dropped?

Treeshka

Damage is nerfed yes and the nerf will make the content a harder of course because players are used to high damage. But health of the bosses are also reduced so it is not that bad for old raids and for all dungeons. But if you want to get the latest two trifecta and clean hard mode runs it is a different story.

For example latest raid does not have much damage checks on the bosses apart from reefs in the second boss and the mages on the third boss. In theory if you can pass those damage checks, which is no big deal even with this patch you can get the clear if you can sustain the fight. But having less damage and not being able to skip certain mechanics will obviously make the fight harder and even impossible for most groups to clear in hard mode.

EF321

This:

Ghaleb

ccfeeling wrote: »

120k ish demo , dps really huge dropped?

I need to write myself a Macro to post these kind of replies, as similar statements have surfaced numerous times from players who do not read the patch notes: The Patch notes informed about a buff to the Trial Dummy which roughly equates to 15-20% DPS increase, when parsing with the Dummy.

So when Skinny did 120k-130k DPS before U35 and now still does 120k DPS while parsing with a Dummy which provides 15-20% higher DPS results, then I leave the math up to you.

But he somewhat lost ~20-30k DPS but will still be able to complete the most challenging activities (besides eventually vDSR HM, as I didn't see one successful finish on esologs.com since Patchday...). Even I lost 20k DPS and my ceiling before U35 was lower than Skinny's at around 100k DPS with the Dummy.

ccfeeling

Ghaleb wrote: »

ccfeeling wrote: »

120k ish demo , dps really huge dropped?

I need to write myself a Macro to post these kind of replies, as similar statements have surfaced numerous times from players who do not read the patch notes: The Patch notes informed about a buff to the Trial Dummy which roughly equates to 15-20% DPS increase, when parsing with the Dummy.

So when Skinny did 120k-130k DPS before U35 and now still does 120k DPS while parsing with a Dummy which provides 15-20% higher DPS results, then I leave the math up to you.

But he somewhat lost ~20-30k DPS but will still be able to complete the most challenging activities (besides eventually vDSR HM, as I didn't see one successful finish on esologs.com since Patchday...). Even I lost 20k DPS and my ceiling before U35 was lower than Skinny's at around 100k DPS with the Dummy.

Gotcha, thanks info.

keto3000

Exactly, that is a key issue that the community has had since 12-person trials system first started early in the game.

It makes sense that it isnt sustainable.

Guilds of several hundred people with only one/few progression groups within each having the same 12 guildies on the team week after week or the progression practice has to be redone when a 'new' player replaces someone that leaves.

It's obviously, that over time, that kind of linear pyramid system is going to lead to an increasingly smaller pool of endgame players that do not have enough exposure time in harder vet content to actually see & learn the mechanics.

It also doesn't help to have mid level players running content in groups where the dps is so high they dont get time to see the mechanics, experience fail, post-game chat to learn from it, etc.

So now we are in the situation where end gamers are scrambling to fast track progression groups, but this problem is years in the making---

Yes, I know that in the past few months, some efforts have been made to push for progression training teams, and that is good, but its 2022.


This culture of uber high DPS rules the game. (NOT MEANT AS AN INDICTMENT).
POWER creep has been encouraged in many ways and now we are feeling the tipping point.


PERHAPS, the game needs:

Dungeon/trial BOSS MECHANICS CANT get bypassed based upon DPS. Let the Boss mechanics play out.

ZOS can adjust overall damage & whatever else they need to do to accomodate for this so trials can be still be accomplished in timely fashion.


Most vet endgame CAN be done with players having lower parses than 90k min, and, yes, the fights will take a bit longer but thats what is needed sometimes. Teaching isn't a 'one& done' type of skill.

More players at the 60, 70, 80k DPS level need to be admitted into hard content progression raid groups.

If CARRY groups (not a fan!) can manage to take players through completion runs for endgame hard content for gold, etc.....

then, do the math its possible for same group composition does NOT require all dps on team to have "highest DPS"

The game needs more pro players that are willing to host them--- host/leads with the time & patience to allow for new player learning curves. TEACHER personalities!

They are hard to come by irl these days as well.

Tutorials in game? Has been discussed for years. Early alpha and beta testing community wanted more immersion ( like console still has today) so the more elaborite tutorials and UI were put off in favor of the TES tradition of allowing mods and addons developers more free reign.



This situation has long been in the making.

We need a much higher percentage of the overall player base to get exposure to the harder end game content.

This shouldn't feel like work!.... it's a recreational game. Yes, competitive gaming is awesome, but you have create a much greater opportunity for a higher percentage of players to move forward through the game's levels of difficulty.



That will take some effort from ZOS, BUT, also more effort by the end game players to reach back and help train/mentor newer players.

ASIDE: The unnecessary back and forth BS about 'elites' vs. 'casuals', 'toxic positives', 'toxic negatives' defeats the whole culture of a healthy MMO. It doesnt help to define us as a 'community' by splintering us into falsely created identity groups.

It takes a village!

Peace

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sbr32 wrote: »

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

Then you realise that making pugs with "link achiev or no invite" in a game where people bought achievements wasn't the best option.

Then the solution seems to be not making pugs, and only playing with people in your closed circle, giving fewer people the chance to play and learn.

SeaGtGruff

Taggund wrote: »

If it takes twice as long, it is not fun. I almost quit one boss fight in the middle because it was just too slow. I finished it, but have not done it again.

That's a matter of personal opinion, and can depend on various factors. I, for one, enjoy lengthy fights if the action is varied and challenging. But if the action isn't varied and the fight boils down to slowly whittling down a boss without much challenge to keep things interesting, then it's tedious. A good example of the latter are troll bosses that constantly regenerate health, such as the troll boss in Deshaan and the troll boss in Blessed Crucible.

crazyivanovic

keto3000 wrote: »

Most vet endgame CAN be done with players having lower parses than 90k min, and, yes, the fights will take a bit longer but thats what is needed sometimes. Teaching isn't a 'one& done' type of skill.

More players at the 60, 70, 80k DPS level need to be admitted into hard content progression raid groups.

If CARRY groups (not a fan!) can manage to take players through completion runs for endgame hard content for gold, etc.....

then, do the math its possible for same group composition does NOT require all dps on team to have "highest DPS"

The game needs more pro players that are willing to host them--- host/leads with the time & patience to allow for new player learning curves. TEACHER personalities!

They are hard to come by irl these days as well.

You know, those teacher personalities were there. Lots of training guilds and training groups in the more top end raiding groups because that is how you get players to the required levels. Google for "project vitality" and what happened there. More than 220 raidleads (across platforms and servers!) and hundreds of vet raids every week to train new players. Now, thanks for U35, the number of raidleads is down to about 60. Not just because the changes are bad but also because of change fatigue. Too much change in too little time. So yeah, the ZOS team appears to kill of their teacher personalities.

Regarding carrying a low DPS player through a raid: If you are running for a trifecta it will not do to take on a new player from craglorn, this is months of work in that very constallation of players to get there. And yes, the faster the fights are over, the easier it is. Which means for DDs the damage dealt (under stress!) does matter. The better the buffs from supports are, the better it is. For tanks they need to be stable and great at de-buffing the boss.

Usually in raid groups people are looking at the logs, trying to help improve their teammates. But if they are not trying to improve they are keeping back the rest of the team. And yeah, it is fair to say "I want to play the char this way" but if you cannot keep up with the requirements to get the trifecta, then the progression group might not be right.

Everything I wrote above btw is NOT about clearing content (that is still possible with U35 without changing setups), it really is about working towards trifectas.

PS: Regarding the carry groups: if it gets to trifectas the people usually have to give their account to another player because there is no trust in that original player not to die and thus take dozens of tries (or the damage missing would have too much impact).

keto3000

sbr32 wrote: »

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

This is, of course, true and I've experienced the thrill of success and the womp womp of dungeon fails since game started! just like any MMO.

But, the math does allow for lower than 90K DPS players to complete, if they get to know the mechanics well with practice. Def might take longer but teaching involves a lotta of love. We definitely need more teachers-- and Patience in the world and... in ESO.