Do DPS numbers really matter that much? If the boss dies..

keto3000

Sounds like you have also played for a some time in game!

I've played since beta 2014 and got to know some top level players as friends/mentors as they have moved on up to some of the high achievements and setting world records in their respective guilds.

ESO started out with a ton of real pro players from other MMOs obvioulsy. The game testers were all top level players.

Guilds like HODOR on PC/EU (Alcast still a big game contributor) and the now defunct, but once prmier guild, ENTROPY RISING on PC/NA were all top nothc mentors helping the brand new playerbase get to endgame.

Remember, Craglorn was only the 3 trials at that time. We had DSA as an arena--- much harder then, but provided great basic training ground for much of the mechanics in the base game!

Getting players through DSA was considered a standard for moving into endgame.

We also had for several years, the very pro website, TAMRIEL FOUNDRY-- started by @Atropos ( Andrew).

On PC, early on, there was a guild called The Crescent Tavern, one of the first hard vet content guilds. One of the req for new members was a reflex test on some website to see if you scored high on dexterity and situational awareness.

So, yeah... ESO has had many teachers over the years! Many good ones still here, but I still feel POWER creep and the never ending quest to achievew the highest comepetitive DPS possible at the expense of narrowing the end game player base into near extinction has been collaborative between ZOS and the more influential pro player base for top tier sets, procs, healers that MUSY contributew to highets dps possible. Tanks havng to wear a gazillion different loadout sets and the endless grind to obtain all those in perfect trait......

lol, I'm exhausted even writing all that! My espresso kicked in.

My point is NOT to criticize, but to show some perspective.

I feel you on the TRIFECTA end of the game, but like I say, the game needs to have a culture again where we are one large tent commujnity and not broken into these false groups: elite vs casuals, mid players in guilds vs single player solo ppl, etc.

I feel, we all, as ESO levers of the game itself, have that basic repsect for eachother somewhere within.

This whole update35 thing has brought all our feelings up and out on the table.

A good time to heal, imo.

Great being able to chat here, btw, in a civil convo.

Much appreciate that!

keto

crazyivanovic wrote: »

keto3000 wrote: »

Most vet endgame CAN be done with players having lower parses than 90k min, and, yes, the fights will take a bit longer but thats what is needed sometimes. Teaching isn't a 'one& done' type of skill.

More players at the 60, 70, 80k DPS level need to be admitted into hard content progression raid groups.

If CARRY groups (not a fan!) can manage to take players through completion runs for endgame hard content for gold, etc.....

then, do the math its possible for same group composition does NOT require all dps on team to have "highest DPS"

The game needs more pro players that are willing to host them--- host/leads with the time & patience to allow for new player learning curves. TEACHER personalities!

They are hard to come by irl these days as well.

You know, those teacher personalities were there. Lots of training guilds and training groups in the more top end raiding groups because that is how you get players to the required levels. Google for "project vitality" and what happened there. More than 220 raidleads (across platforms and servers!) and hundreds of vet raids every week to train new players. Now, thanks for U35, the number of raidleads is down to about 60. Not just because the changes are bad but also because of change fatigue. Too much change in too little time. So yeah, the ZOS team appears to kill of their teacher personalities.

Regarding carrying a low DPS player through a raid: If you are running for a trifecta it will not do to take on a new player from craglorn, this is months of work in that very constallation of players to get there. And yes, the faster the fights are over, the easier it is. Which means for DDs the damage dealt (under stress!) does matter. The better the buffs from supports are, the better it is. For tanks they need to be stable and great at de-buffing the boss.

Usually in raid groups people are looking at the logs, trying to help improve their teammates. But if they are not trying to improve they are keeping back the rest of the team. And yeah, it is fair to say "I want to play the char this way" but if you cannot keep up with the requirements to get the trifecta, then the progression group might not be right.

Everything I wrote above btw is NOT about clearing content (that is still possible with U35 without changing setups), it really is about working towards trifectas.

PS: Regarding the carry groups: if it gets to trifectas the people usually have to give their account to another player because there is no trust in that original player not to die and thus take dozens of tries (or the damage missing would have too much impact).

jle30303

Another thing that has actually upset carry-groups: The fact that players now ARE dragged into boss fights instead of being able to stay back and stay out. So even if you're just a body, you have to know enough of the mechanics to stay alive while being present, instead of staying alive by being absent.

Carry groups are important because one of the major motivations for a high-powered person to keep on doing the high-powered content again and again *is to make in-game money from it* - and selling runs, selling titles, is a good way of doing this. It provides a motivation for the higher powered players to actually get good enough to carry a passenger on a run, if the passenger is paying (and provided they make sure to carry ONLY one passenger on the run: if you're going to PUG, you'd better be able to carry at least some of the weight.)

Also, being able to over-DPS things is a good way of bringing a trainee Tank or a trainee Healer into a teaching run, someone who *doesn't* have the experience yet but needs to actually do enough runs to gain the experience so as to be able to do their job properly whe faced with a group that has lower DPS. So that, say, only having to do the mid-fight mechanics once or twice, compared to half a dozen times because the fight lasts longer, still teaches them to watch out for the signs that NOW is when the mechanics need to be done.

That's one of the major reasons why "super high DPS" is NOT a thing that developers should necessarily be wanting to nerf, except in the context of PVP where it is simply no fun to be killed in one hit repeatedly.

sbr32

keto3000 wrote: »

sbr32 wrote: »

Sure, if you are still having fun and the boss dies then everything is good.

But what if the boss doesn't die? And that wipes the group? And then you do some math and realize that no matter what changes you make you can't kill the boss in time? Then what?

This is, of course, true and I've experienced the thrill of success and the womp womp of dungeon fails since game started! just like any MMO.

But, the math does allow for lower than 90K DPS players to complete, if they get to know the mechanics well with practice. Def might take longer but teaching involves a lotta of love. We definitely need more teachers-- and Patience in the world and... in ESO.

90k allows you to complete what? And how do you know which groups have 90k and which don't?

Dr_Con

jle30303 wrote: »

Carry groups are important because one of the major motivations for a high-powered person to keep on doing the high-powered content again and again *is to make in-game money from it* - and selling runs, selling titles, is a good way of doing this. It provides a motivation for the higher powered players to actually get good enough to carry a passenger on a run, if the passenger is paying (and provided they make sure to carry ONLY one passenger on the run: if you're going to PUG, you'd better be able to carry at least some of the weight.)

I entirely disagree, carry groups who sell their services should be eradicated from this game. Receiving payment, assuming it's not being RMT'd, is nothing more than an ego boost to these players and cultivates a pustule of existing players who feed off the game and provide little benefit rather than encouraging newer players to band together to do the content.

moleculardrugs

DPS doesn’t matter that much if you have a good tank and a good healer. I think what matters more than DPS is survivability. There is a base level amount of damage players need to do to not make passing DSA or a dungeon take a dreadfully long time, but you don’t need top-tier DPS to play any of the content. Aiming for Uber-high DPS is understandable for competitive trial groups but that’s where and why I like PvP, you need to have survivability and sustain on top of having enough DPS to kill enemy players. PvP has taught me a lot about the game’s mechs in terms of gameplay. I think more players should PvP if they want to improve overall with the game in terms of PvE.

MalEducado

as a main tank, its not my job to lose my tiem with 20 wipes and poor dps... expecially when a queue for randoms dg... and as always say, there are not tanks on the game... if you need tank, just tank yourself

redspecter23

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

It makes all that effort feel like a complete waste of time. To put it in perspective, how much dps would maximum cp add to a character? 20% maybe more, maybe less. Taking away 20% is like taking the entire cp system and tossing it away in one update and telling players "you can still clear the content without it". Sure they can, but the mental and emotional aspect can't be quantified on any spreadsheet.

Yes, much of the content can still be cleared. It will very likely be slower or harder now. If you were just on the borderline between completion and failure, you may very well be failing repeatedly now. Which content this is will vary from player to player, but outside of the tip top, whatever content was the maximum difficulty you were clearing before, you're not doing it now without more work put into gearing and skilling which takes time... a lot more time than it takes to nerf us.

BalticBlues

There are certain DPS checks in the game, where you do not pass if you fail.
Moreover, not only the DPS was nerfed, Healers were also nerfed.
Combined, this makes certain content unplayable...

etchedpixels

redspecter23 wrote: »

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

And in one update they can accidentally give you 20% by mistake too. I've seen nothing yet to suggest any numbers are lower than Elsweyr period.

redspecter23

etchedpixels wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

And in one update they can accidentally give you 20% by mistake too. I've seen nothing yet to suggest any numbers are lower than Elsweyr period.

That might even be true, but my point was that player perception, morale and trust means a lot. When week 1 came around and the intentions were stated, it was crushing to many players. Some of those changes were rolled back a bit, but it doesn't change the initial intent. Players felt they were being punished for being good. Even mid tier players were being targetted with hits. They weren't clearing vet HM trials. From their perspective, why would they need such heavy handed nerfs?

The spreadsheets said so. Spreadsheets don't have feelings. They don't see their friends lose faith and leave. They don't count guilds falling apart. They don't hear the discussions that happen in discord because they get censored here. These are concerns that never got addressed and based on communication (or lack thereof), it's just acceptable attrition. My friends are not just "acceptable attrition" and I like to feel respected and feel like the game has a promising future. I'd like to recommend this to friends with a straight face and tell them it's an amazing experience. I can't do that honestly at the moment. ZOS can put that anecdotal experience on their spreadsheet.

LiniFox

It’s not just damage that was nerfed; It was the way the game plays as well, I quit playing because of how bad warden feels to play now, I am playing WoW again for the first time in years, if they fix it I will probably come back

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

zaria

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Dps check mechanics has entered the chat.

I say its more that if you have difficult to handle mechanics you get more of them with lower group dps.
This is true from world bosses to trials.

meekmiko

For anyone who thinks DPS doesn't matter I dare you to go run Veteran Shipwright's Regret HM on all the bosses... Yeh, go ahead. This patch made the fights a lot harder for no. good. reason.
Like I mentioned in a feedback thread during the PTS the ghost fight itself got worse. It doesn't seem like ZOS remembered that the smaller ghost adds, spawned from the boss, already put healing, damage, and armor debuffs on your whole group.
And during the Spriggan fight that you have literal seconds to have your two DPS burn down two senche adds across from each other, singlehandedly because there isn't enough time to run across the arena to help the other DPS, or your whole team WIPES..

Go run portals in Veteran Cloudrest HM and Veteran Sunspire HM.. DPS checks are definitely a thing during these mechanics or your whole team will wipe.

Anyone who says this patch is perfectly fine isn't doing much Veteran content.

PrincessOfThieves

redspecter23 wrote: »

etchedpixels wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Players can grind for months for gear or cp to get a few % higher. You can hone your skills over the course of years to get 5% or 10% better.

In one update, ZOS can take away 20% on a whim.

And in one update they can accidentally give you 20% by mistake too. I've seen nothing yet to suggest any numbers are lower than Elsweyr period.

That might even be true, but my point was that player perception, morale and trust means a lot. When week 1 came around and the intentions were stated, it was crushing to many players. Some of those changes were rolled back a bit, but it doesn't change the initial intent. Players felt they were being punished for being good. Even mid tier players were being targetted with hits. They weren't clearing vet HM trials. From their perspective, why would they need such heavy handed nerfs?

The spreadsheets said so. Spreadsheets don't have feelings. They don't see their friends lose faith and leave. They don't count guilds falling apart. They don't hear the discussions that happen in discord because they get censored here. These are concerns that never got addressed and based on communication (or lack thereof), it's just acceptable attrition. My friends are not just "acceptable attrition" and I like to feel respected and feel like the game has a promising future. I'd like to recommend this to friends with a straight face and tell them it's an amazing experience. I can't do that honestly at the moment. ZOS can put that anecdotal experience on their spreadsheet.

This.
We play games to have fun, so our "anecdotal experience" is as important (or even more important) than ZOS' idea of balance. Who cares if the game is more balanced from their theoretical perspective if it's not fun to play anymore?

WinterHeart626

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

They reduced both damage done and healing received, so now fights drag out longer which means you're taking more damage overall. Everyone has to up their game those who can't pull it anymore have to be dropped to create a tighter group and fewer new entries can get on the action unless someone else finally gives up. Vet trial groups will be less inclusive now because everyone has to pull equal weight, newcomers and average friends are going to have a harder time getting into it.

It is awesome! You'll love it! Especially if you're the one that gets cut.

Hahaha, yeah……. Let’s not go there. Patch 35, no longer able to do vet trials. Not even the training runs. So much for operation revitalise or whatever it was called..
I’ll just stick to my core Vet dungeoneering crew. You live- get prizes. You die- get teabagged, while the others are fighting the boss 😂 no word of a lie, watching a team mate bag you while they kill the boss = funny AF.