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Dark Cloak in U35 isn't good
virt_eso
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I've been using Night Blade as my PVE tank for a couple years now and it's been my favorite tank class, but now I'm swapping all my gear over to someone else. When I saw the change to Dark Cloak in the PTS (Healing value nerfed by 42%, unless you stand still for a 150% buff) I knew it was not going to be a change that I liked. I thought "Nobody likes to stand perfectly still in this game, that sounds boring." I thought "there's going to content where standing still isn't an option because there are dangerous AOEs everywhere or adds that I need to chain in or taunt, which you often can't do when there's a boss in front of you"
The first dungeon I took it into was Icereach on veteran with hard mode enabled for the final boss. And all of this was confirmed. I hated standing still. It felt like another thing that had to be on my mind at all times like "Am I standing still, CAN I stand still right now?" making it a less "accessible" class to tank on. There were dangerous AOEs everywhere I had to get out of. There were several mechanics I had to follow which required me to move. There were dangerous adds I needed to taunt. And worst of all, when something went wrong and the healer went down, I could not stand still, I could not keep up on the self-heals and I died where in the previous patch in the exact same scenario I survived.
Now I know I can just drop the skill and replace it with other things, but I'd rather just bench the character at this point because that skill was a large part of the class identity that I enjoyed. This post isn't about whether or not the NB can still be a good PVE tank. Obviously, it can. The point is that the Dark Cloak skill itself isn't worth using now in PVE or PVP. Speaking of PVP It's much much worse in PVP. Completely unusable unless you're literally on a "stand still and hold block" build, which is something like 3 or 4 people enjoy doing.
Hopefully one day Dark Cloak will change back to what it was. I don't know why it needed to be changed in the first place considering it was not given any explanation. Maybe a different adjustment can be made to solve whatever problem it had, but please, we want to be able to move around in this game, we don't want to hold still and hold block.
The first dungeon I took it into was Icereach on veteran with hard mode enabled for the final boss. And all of this was confirmed. I hated standing still. It felt like another thing that had to be on my mind at all times like "Am I standing still, CAN I stand still right now?" making it a less "accessible" class to tank on. There were dangerous AOEs everywhere I had to get out of. There were several mechanics I had to follow which required me to move. There were dangerous adds I needed to taunt. And worst of all, when something went wrong and the healer went down, I could not stand still, I could not keep up on the self-heals and I died where in the previous patch in the exact same scenario I survived.
Now I know I can just drop the skill and replace it with other things, but I'd rather just bench the character at this point because that skill was a large part of the class identity that I enjoyed. This post isn't about whether or not the NB can still be a good PVE tank. Obviously, it can. The point is that the Dark Cloak skill itself isn't worth using now in PVE or PVP. Speaking of PVP It's much much worse in PVP. Completely unusable unless you're literally on a "stand still and hold block" build, which is something like 3 or 4 people enjoy doing.
Hopefully one day Dark Cloak will change back to what it was. I don't know why it needed to be changed in the first place considering it was not given any explanation. Maybe a different adjustment can be made to solve whatever problem it had, but please, we want to be able to move around in this game, we don't want to hold still and hold block.
16
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umagon✭✭✭✭✭The condition for the 150% additional healing should have been “while wearing 5 or more pieces of heavy armor” which would have the impact zos is looking for in pvp while not effecting pve builds. Because it would remove the use of most of the medium armor passives in brawler blade builds which are providing additional weapon damage and healing because of the weapon damage driving the healing output.
But ultimately if zos want to get survivability in pvp under control, healing needs to have its own stat and needs to stop scaling from weapon/spell damage. ZOS seems not to understand that that brawler blade builds are running 5k+ weapon damage and 30k+ resource pools; and that is where the bulk of the healing was coming from and is still coming from.
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Treeshka✭✭✭✭✭
✭You do not need to stand still all the time just stand still when it is about to tick.1 -
virt_eso✭✭I was playing a brawler night blade before this patch in open world PVP and dueling in Stormhaven. Along with Magicka Dragonknight and Magicka Templar. And let me just say that I had a much easier of a time keeping healed with the other two. Although I recognize that there are some other changes that have made Magicka NB a viable brawler without dark cloak. Dark Cloak itself was barely enough healing to get by before and now it's not usable. Which is just a bummer. It's reinforcing the "NB = Stealth Ganker" pigeonhole. Oh well I guess. The change to resolving vigor has made it better than any HoT in the game. Just use vigor and a burst heal and be like every other class right now.The condition for the 150% additional healing should have been “while wearing 5 or more pieces of heavy armor” which would have the impact zos is looking for in pvp while not effecting pve builds. Because it would remove the use of most of the medium armor passives in brawler blade builds which are providing additional weapon damage and healing because of the weapon damage driving the healing output.
But ultimately if zos want to get survivability in pvp under control, healing needs to have its own stat and needs to stop scaling from weapon/spell damage. ZOS seems not to understand that that brawler blade builds are running 5k+ weapon damage and 30k+ resource pools; and that is where the bulk of the healing was coming from and is still coming from.
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EnerG✭✭✭✭✭Kinda the most basic skill of a tank is stand still and dont move the boss. The bosses don't move on ice reach yeah but go off....
You stand still unless it's an aoe that you CANNOT be healed thru, otherwise you're just moving the bosses for 0 reason and making the dps and healers reapply dots, or making the dos take extra steps to be flanking the boss for their cp to work. There's really only 2 circumstances you should move as a tank and it's the boss moves and isn't a boss that comes back to you, or you are standing in damage that will kill you before it dissapates.1 -
EnerG✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Does anyone seriously use the NB as a tank?
I have a tank of every class. Nb is by far the funnest for me, thought I wouldn't bring him into my vtrial statics without seriously reworking his build, but people do sleep on NB tanks and healers, and it's quite annoying to see such a versatile class relegated to a single role.0 -
code65536✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Parasaurolophus wrote: »Does anyone seriously use the NB as a tank?
I've done the new dungeon trifectas on my NB tank, so... yes?I've been using Night Blade as my PVE tank for a couple years now and it's been my favorite tank class, but now I'm swapping all my gear over to someone else. When I saw the change to Dark Cloak in the PTS (Healing value nerfed by 42%, unless you stand still for a 150% buff) I knew it was not going to be a change that I liked. I thought "Nobody likes to stand perfectly still in this game, that sounds boring." I thought "there's going to content where standing still isn't an option because there are dangerous AOEs everywhere or adds that I need to chain in or taunt, which you often can't do when there's a boss in front of you"
The first dungeon I took it into was Icereach on veteran with hard mode enabled for the final boss. And all of this was confirmed. I hated standing still. It felt like another thing that had to be on my mind at all times like "Am I standing still, CAN I stand still right now?" making it a less "accessible" class to tank on. There were dangerous AOEs everywhere I had to get out of. There were several mechanics I had to follow which required me to move. There were dangerous adds I needed to taunt. And worst of all, when something went wrong and the healer went down, I could not stand still, I could not keep up on the self-heals and I died where in the previous patch in the exact same scenario I survived.
Now I know I can just drop the skill and replace it with other things, but I'd rather just bench the character at this point because that skill was a large part of the class identity that I enjoyed. This post isn't about whether or not the NB can still be a good PVE tank. Obviously, it can. The point is that the Dark Cloak skill itself isn't worth using now in PVE or PVP. Speaking of PVP It's much much worse in PVP. Completely unusable unless you're literally on a "stand still and hold block" build, which is something like 3 or 4 people enjoy doing.
Hopefully one day Dark Cloak will change back to what it was. I don't know why it needed to be changed in the first place considering it was not given any explanation. Maybe a different adjustment can be made to solve whatever problem it had, but please, we want to be able to move around in this game, we don't want to hold still and hold block.
If you stop-and-go; i.e., move and get one weak tick, stop and get a strong tick, and repeat so that every other tick is a strong tick, you'll get the same amount of healing as before.
My main character is a NB tank, and while there are definitely some fights where the new Cloak sucks (Shipwright boss 2 HM, for example, when you have the Lurcher DoT while also needing to constantly move the boss out of her circles, or Earthen Root boss 1 HM where you need to kite the AoEs while potentially dealing with a Trauma effect), in the majority of cases, it seemed fine and no worse than before.Kinda the most basic skill of a tank is stand still and dont move the boss. The bosses don't move on ice reach yeah but go off....
You stand still unless it's an aoe that you CANNOT be healed thru, otherwise you're just moving the bosses for 0 reason and making the dps and healers reapply dots, or making the dos take extra steps to be flanking the boss for their cp to work. There's really only 2 circumstances you should move as a tank and it's the boss moves and isn't a boss that comes back to you, or you are standing in damage that will kill you before it dissapates.
They said Icereach final boss, where the bosses are immobile and can never be moved, and there are mechanics on that fight that may require kiting or otherwise avoiding. That said, there shouldn't be anything that requires constant movement on Icereach HM.Edited by code65536 on September 6, 2022 9:45AMNightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU
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virt_eso✭✭For the comments about Icereach, it's not that Icreach was a particularly challenging example, it was just that it happened to be the very first dungeon I went to go try it out in, and it didn't take long for me to confirm that the change to the skill isn't a good one.
And yeah, I'm aware that you aren't supposed to move bosses around in most cases, that's not the point. When I'm moving around, I just sort of half-circling the boss so that they don't move, but then I can get out of AOEs, or I can taunt distant targets or chain them in. It's not that I can't stop-and-go to try and get some good ticks of the heal, it's that doing that isn't fun and is just another thing I have to concentrate on doing when I'm forced to move. "Another plate to spin" so-to-speak
So yes, I can do "work-arounds" to still utilize the skill, but that still means that the change to the skill wasn't a positive one.
Also imagine tanking something like Asylum Sanctorum as the off-tank where you're literally non-stop moving all over the map with the mini bosses teleporting everywhere and stacking AOEs being flung at everyone. (I'm sure someone in the comments will be like "Well why would you tank on a NB in Asylum" Exactly. Why tank on a NB. This change just reinforced the "why tank on a NB" question, and that's the complaint here.
The class actually has a lot of nice passives for tanking that I really liked, and this change has made it less appealing. That's all.0 -
BahometZ✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Just another temporary brainfart idea that will get changed once they work out what they actually want to do. Add it to the list.Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)3 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah I tried the new Dark Cloak for about 10 minutes before respeccing it to Shadowy Disguise and slotting Vigor instead.
I just can't bring myself to stand in stupid in PvE or stand still in PvP and get wrecked. The bonus wasn't even close to making up for all the new damage generated by immobility.2 -
Wolfshade✭✭✭✭✭
✭Just reading in the Patchnotes is something, that makes people more afraid/angry instead of playing it live. I use Dark Cloak in PVP, and specialy in combination with other skills, it was super strong.1 -
BalticBlues✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Any dev requiring players to stand still
certainly did not play PvE DLC for a long time
because movement now is a core part of the game.
Edited by BalticBlues on September 6, 2022 8:17AM4 -
rbfrgsp✭✭✭✭✭Thematically, Nightblade should appear to be the ultimate Kite Tank' utilising evasion and passive mitigations, but they have dropped a stinker on top of that idea by insisting you stand still if you want to heal.3
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edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Dark Cloak is great right now for tanks.
I would say one change they could make is have it work the way it does now for characters wearing full Heavy Armor with resistance cap.
They could return it to the previous version for characters running Medium Armor.0 -
edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭Yeah I tried the new Dark Cloak for about 10 minutes before respeccing it to Shadowy Disguise and slotting Vigor instead.
I just can't bring myself to stand in stupid in PvE or stand still in PvP and get wrecked. The bonus wasn't even close to making up for all the new damage generated by immobility.
My understanding is Vigor was buffed and people have taken to using that instead of DC.0 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭That is/would be a terrible change, dark cloak is my main nightblade tank skill. Forcing tanks to stand still in dungeons is terrible!
Edit: This was in update 35? Haven't tanked yet, so I will find out with the next event.
Edit 2: Read the developer notes for the change, and I guess from now on we only get non-moveable bosses and tank-avoiding aoe attacks? Otherwise that change makes no sense what-so-ever.
It wouldn't be bad if they got rid of the OHK mechanics for tanks. But since I find that unlikely, yeah probably a bad change
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edward_frigidhands✭✭✭✭✭BXR_Lonestar wrote: »That is/would be a terrible change, dark cloak is my main nightblade tank skill. Forcing tanks to stand still in dungeons is terrible!
Edit: This was in update 35? Haven't tanked yet, so I will find out with the next event.
Edit 2: Read the developer notes for the change, and I guess from now on we only get non-moveable bosses and tank-avoiding aoe attacks? Otherwise that change makes no sense what-so-ever.
It wouldn't be bad if they got rid of the OHK mechanics for tanks. But since I find that unlikely, yeah probably a bad change
OHK?0 -
dmnqwk✭✭✭✭✭A lot of people have decided that having 54k health isn't a good thing, and make do with a low level (like 37k or 42k).
With 50-55k health you get:
7k/pierce armor using masters word and shield
20k Polar Winds with a 4.5k tick (5 times over 10 seconds) (warden)
3k/second Dark Cloak (7.5k/second standing still) (nightblade)
18k defensive shields. (everybody)
For those reliant on rolling, and operating a 25-30k stamina pool they'll get about 16-20k Vigors over the 5, putting it ahead of their 2k/second Dark Cloak while moving (5k/second standing still) but it's their choice not to work with the 'max health' part of the description. In other games you'd be a mana sponge for building max health, but ESO uses it as a resource to improve your healing and shielding... perhaps you should try and make do with the 20k magicka/stamina you will have when stacking max health and seeing if you can handle the freedom that actually does let you stand in the damage sometimes (since 20k/second healing potential is kinda nice when layered yourself)
Also OHK is one hit kill, or one shot as some of us would say.0 -
J2JMC✭✭✭✭✭Thematically, Nightblade should appear to be the ultimate Kite Tank' utilising evasion and passive mitigations, but they have dropped a stinker on top of that idea by insisting you stand still if you want to heal.
Thematically, tanking should be the last thing nightblades care about all...
Nonetheless, this is what happens when people confuse play as you want with every tool in the game should behave the same. If players and devs actually cared about class identity, a change like this would have never seen the light of day on any skill in the nightblade's kit.Now I know I can just drop the skill and replace it with other things, but I'd rather just bench the character at this point because that skill was a large part of the class identity that I enjoyed...Hopefully one day Dark Cloak will change back to what it was. I don't know why it needed to be changed in the first place considering it was not given any explanation. Maybe a different adjustment can be made to solve whatever problem it had...
Here I agree. It's a tragedy that ZOS is taking away the stealth from dark cloak and turning it into a heal...oh wait wrong year.
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Battle leveling for pve content defeats the idea of progression. Remove CP
"Apparently the players are more informed than we are"-Richard Lambert0 -
virt_eso✭✭edward_frigidhands wrote: »Yeah I tried the new Dark Cloak for about 10 minutes before respeccing it to Shadowy Disguise and slotting Vigor instead.
I just can't bring myself to stand in stupid in PvE or stand still in PvP and get wrecked. The bonus wasn't even close to making up for all the new damage generated by immobility.
My understanding is Vigor was buffed and people have taken to using that instead of DC.
When I used to be a brawl-blade before all this I used both Dark Cloak and Vigor together, and it was just enough healing to almost keep up with templars and DKs. However, still less than them. I understand that stamina night blades can use the burst heal now, but having good heal-over-time skills is still very important. Burst heals take up a lot of global cooldown time and a lot of magicka if that's how you're staying alive.
And just to reiterate, the intent of this post is to highlight that the Dark Cloak change was not a good change. I'm not worried about work arounds or solutions. Merely that the change was bad, and the skill will no longer be used. When skills are unusable, they are a wasted piece of the class and therefore the class loses a piece of its class identity. Non-class abilities should be a last resort for builds, to supplement whatever the class is lacking.
Just look at the history of the stamina sorcerer. Used to be that you'd have 2, maybe 3 class skills slotted like hurricane and streak, and the rest came from non-class skill lines. Stamina sorcerer had very little class identity for a long time but have since been updated many times to try and fix that.0 -
virt_eso✭✭Thematically, tanking should be the last thing nightblades care about all...
I know people mostly associate the nightblade as being the rogue class, and it is. But don't forget one of their skill lines is dedicated to pseudo-vampiric "life-tap" and blood magic skills. Which is why the "sap-tank" from many years ago was such a fun way to tank dungeons. Imagine a world where the dark cloak skill acted more like the way the Malubeth monster helm functioned, in that it sapped life from targets near you over time.0 -
virt_eso✭✭TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »It's good if you pair it with meditate.
I've seen someone doing that. It does appear to be kinda cool as long as you don't have more than like 4 people on you. Then it's probably not smart and you're better off staying as mobile as possible.0 -
Sarannah✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just tested it in-game, and as the health regen scales off maximum health it is still really good for me. As I always build selfish tanks with 50k+ health. So I will remove my previous post.
PS: To the post above, how do you get 18k defensive shields on all classes?0
