Why do we have to beg for communication?
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hey, all of you jumping on Gina for that Twitter thread, please remember that you're a bit late to that party.
We already had a fairly lengthy thread about it back in January, and she responded to our concerns there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7500260#Comment_7500260
I'll let you decide what you think about it, but I do want to clarify that players had their say when it happened and provide the context of her forum response here.6 -
EldritchSun✭✭✭Communication? I wouldn't hope to get a productive communication with the team claiming they want to make classes unique (why else we had that class restoration thing?), and then making non-class skills stronger, than class ones and replacing unique buff-specific classes with easy-to-proc sets. As well as with the team claiming they want to bring more 'accessibility', then making normal content harder, compared to vet, by nerfing damage and not adjusting that normal content.
Their actions are opposite of their words. What sort of 'communication' would you want to expect?
Edited by EldritchSun on August 24, 2022 11:57PM13 -
Blinx✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Hey, all of you jumping on Gina for that Twitter thread, please remember that you're a bit late to that party.
We already had a fairly lengthy thread about it back in January, and she responded to our concerns there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7500260#Comment_7500260
I'll let you decide what you think about it, but I do want to clarify that players had their say when it happened and provide the context of her forum response here.
all I see is a vague corporate response, obviously nothing has changed regarding communicating with the player base because here we go again.12 -
UnabashedlyHonest✭✭✭✭✭Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things.
Except that's not really how corporations work.
When profits (and users, subscribers, consumers, etc) go down, funds and manpower are reallocated to more profitable sectors. And at some point, when the profit to loss margin becomes unacceptable, they will abandon the project and cut their losses.
It's a common misconception that we can "make ZOS pay for what they've done" by withholding funds. Their accountants will just monitor the loss in profits and decide how much less of the corporate budget will be allocated to the game.
This explanation appears to fit quite well with how ESO has gotten to where it is today. And, most likely, predictive of what we can expect for ESO in the future. (I don't know anyone who's still willing to pay for a sub anymore, and after how weak High Isle is, future chapter sales are virtually certain to decline as well)Edited by UnabashedlyHonest on August 25, 2022 2:21AM6 -
joerginger✭✭✭✭✭To me, this explanation doesn't really make any sense at all. Which other profitable project is ZOS supposed to make any money from so they move all their workforce there? ESO is their only game and last I heard it is making money..0
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Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joerginger wrote: »To me, this explanation doesn't really make any sense at all. Which other profitable project is ZOS supposed to make any money from so they move all their workforce there? ESO is their only game and last I heard it is making money..
https://www.zenimax.com/en/library
Plus they are working on other new projects.2 -
joerginger✭✭✭✭✭Wikipedia credits this company with "additional work", these aren't their games. Only ESO is.4
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Asdara✭✭✭✭✭
✭VaranisArano wrote: »Hey, all of you jumping on Gina for that Twitter thread, please remember that you're a bit late to that party.
We already had a fairly lengthy thread about it back in January, and she responded to our concerns there: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7500260#Comment_7500260
I'll let you decide what you think about it, but I do want to clarify that players had their say when it happened and provide the context of her forum response here.
Wasn't aware of this, but it doesn't change the fact that at some point it should have been discussed with us on the forum.
And clearly doesn't excuse the silence treatment we got last 4 years“The Second Era? Oh, you mean the BEAM Era. Because apparently every problem could be solved with a giant glowing light shooting at everything.”1 -
Hurbster✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »[snip] Now if only the devs would show the same keenness in actually talking and discussing why they are doing what they are doing with us, instead of snippy tweets.
How about er, let's say off the top of my head a 'live letter' before every patch where the chief dev and the team go through all the changes and explain them.
Revolutionary, no?
And let me just say, good customer service starts at the top.
[edited for discussion of disciplinary actions]
How would the Live Letter be substantially different from the Combat Preview?
Most Updates aren't nearly so contentious nor do they see as much walking back of the original Combat Preview as this one. Though combined with the weekly updates on what to expect changed on the PTS and why, I think we got a fair glimpse of what the Combat Team was thinking. (Now, we didn't like most of the answers we got, but that doesn't mean we didn't get them.) I'd like to see the Devs continue with those weekly updates explaining upcoming PTS changes.
So I guess I'm not sure what the Live Letter would accomplish that the Combat Preview + weekly PTS explanations wouldn't. Can you elaborate, please?
They NEED to sort their communication out. It's terrible and by far the worst of the big 5 games. Also probably the most arrogant, especially with what happened to WoW in the last few expansions and circumstances actually forcing them to change their attitude to be more in line with what the player base actually want.
Having someone asking what we want in terms of communication beggars belief. EVERYTHING should go through the official forums, as well as social media. As someone who has been in customer service for over 20 years things need to change. Regular explanations, going into detail as to why things are happening and what the vision is, stop acting like they are not a huge AAA company, these are the MINIMUM that we should expect from them.
So yes, a live letter and some lovely humble pie for a change would be a start. Not comments that anyone else should get severely disciplined for in any other job.Edited by Hurbster on August 25, 2022 9:46AMSo they raised the floor and lowered the ceiling. Except the ceiling has spikes in it now and the floor is also lava.16 -
LatentBuzzard✭✭✭✭joerginger wrote: »To me, this explanation doesn't really make any sense at all. Which other profitable project is ZOS supposed to make any money from so they move all their workforce there? ESO is their only game and last I heard it is making money..
The explanation doesn't make sense because it's inaccurate. It's a hypothetical scenario in which decisions are being made with no consideration for other realities that affect the decision, which is just not realistic.
As an example, Microsoft burned it's console player base with the XBox One reveal and as a result the player base withheld their money and bought PlayStations instead. If the above explanation were accurate that would mean that the Microsoft accountants would have sat down and said "we'll, we're just going to cut funding for the next generation of the XBox console" but that's clearly not what happened. Instead as a result of their player base withholding their money and causing Microsoft to get trashed in the PS4 / XB One competition, Microsoft was forced to become better as far as the XBox ecosystem goes.
So yeah, ignore that explanation because it's too simplistic to the point of just being wrong.2 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things.
Except that's not really how corporations work.
When profits (and users, subscribers, consumers, etc) go down, funds and manpower are reallocated to more profitable sectors. And at some point, when the profit to loss margin becomes unacceptable, they will abandon the project and cut their losses.
It's a common misconception that we can "make ZOS pay for what they've done" by withholding funds. Their accountants will just monitor the loss in profits and decide how much less of the corporate budget will be allocated to the game.
Except as one who's worked for a publicly traded company for a long time I assure you this is exactly how it works. When companies start missing fiscal goals, even monthly and quarterly fiscal goals management immediately asks "why is this happening" so they can correct the issue. ZoS will look at when the financial downturn began and they'll see sub cancellations beginning with U35 and then dig into the issue more. They'll look at player sentiment, they'll look at the forums, then if bad enough they'll send out a survey to those who cancelled and they'll see the picture as to why they lost and continue to lose money and work to correct the issue. That process won't happen immediately but if the downturn is long enough it will happen. Companies just don't close down a project for a downturn and start new projects, they try to salvage their investment first and foremost.5 -
Jaraal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things.
Except that's not really how corporations work.
When profits (and users, subscribers, consumers, etc) go down, funds and manpower are reallocated to more profitable sectors. And at some point, when the profit to loss margin becomes unacceptable, they will abandon the project and cut their losses.
It's a common misconception that we can "make ZOS pay for what they've done" by withholding funds. Their accountants will just monitor the loss in profits and decide how much less of the corporate budget will be allocated to the game.
Except as one who's worked for a publicly traded company for a long time I assure you this is exactly how it works. When companies start missing fiscal goals, even monthly and quarterly fiscal goals management immediately asks "why is this happening" so they can correct the issue. ZoS will look at when the financial downturn began and they'll see sub cancellations beginning with U35 and then dig into the issue more. They'll look at player sentiment, they'll look at the forums, then if bad enough they'll send out a survey to those who cancelled and they'll see the picture as to why they lost and continue to lose money and work to correct the issue. That process won't happen immediately but if the downturn is long enough it will happen. Companies just don't close down a project for a downturn and start new projects, they try to salvage their investment first and foremost.
The average number of players who access the game through Steam (the only genuine numbers we have access to) is currently half of what it was less than 2 1/2 years ago. If you have steadily lost half of your business income over that period of time, then you either are not doing the things you mentioned, or are doing them wrong.
According to the poll on the forum, over 80% of the players think Update 35 was bad. So something is clearly amiss. Consumers don't usually stick with products they consider bad, inconsistent, or insensitive to their needs. And if 'issue correction' has not taken place, and the exodus continues, then I don't think you can reasonably say that corporate introspection/correction is paying off in this case.
Edited by Jaraal on August 25, 2022 4:40PM4 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭joerginger wrote: »Wikipedia credits this company with "additional work", these aren't their games. Only ESO is.
The observant know that there is an entirely separate development team working on another big game, lead by a separate Creative Director. That Creative Director was openly recruiting talent on Twitter. It has been in development for a couple of years, now, and it will probably be a couple more before we find out what it is.
It is true that ESO is the only source of income that ZOS has. That merely means that they won't be shutting the game down any time soon. That does not mean they have to keep spending the same amount of money for development of quarterly updates. Some of that money can go to this new game.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus2 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »
Why is a Community Manager basically asking us "how do you talk to people?"
It's not an unreasonable question, or questions. "What type of things are you typically looking for?" and "Where are you looking for it?" are both very valid questions.
Of all the low hanging fruit with this patch, and especially their communication, criticizing someone for asking questions that could potentially make it better wouldn't be where I would start. albeit, that quote was months prior to the PTS.
Of course they aren't unreasonable...for a fresh hire. These sound like questions an aspiring CM would have, not one whose established in their position for a few years.
We tell them that there is a communication issue. They respond asking what could make it better. Seems pretty reasonable.
All of the things wrong with their communication, this is the least of their issues.1 -
Ragnarok0130✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnarok0130 wrote: »Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things.
Except that's not really how corporations work.
When profits (and users, subscribers, consumers, etc) go down, funds and manpower are reallocated to more profitable sectors. And at some point, when the profit to loss margin becomes unacceptable, they will abandon the project and cut their losses.
It's a common misconception that we can "make ZOS pay for what they've done" by withholding funds. Their accountants will just monitor the loss in profits and decide how much less of the corporate budget will be allocated to the game.
Except as one who's worked for a publicly traded company for a long time I assure you this is exactly how it works. When companies start missing fiscal goals, even monthly and quarterly fiscal goals management immediately asks "why is this happening" so they can correct the issue. ZoS will look at when the financial downturn began and they'll see sub cancellations beginning with U35 and then dig into the issue more. They'll look at player sentiment, they'll look at the forums, then if bad enough they'll send out a survey to those who cancelled and they'll see the picture as to why they lost and continue to lose money and work to correct the issue. That process won't happen immediately but if the downturn is long enough it will happen. Companies just don't close down a project for a downturn and start new projects, they try to salvage their investment first and foremost.
The average number of players who access the game through Steam (the only genuine numbers we have access to) is currently half of what it was less than 2 1/2 years ago. If you have steadily lost half of your business income over that period of time, then you either are not doing the things you mentioned, or are doing them wrong.
According to the poll on the forum, over 80% of the players think Update 35 was bad. So something is clearly amiss. Consumers don't usually stick with products they consider bad, inconsistent, or insensitive to their needs. And if 'issue correction' has not taken place, and the exodus continues, then I don't think you can reasonably say that corporate introspection/correction is paying off in this case.
There is an outlier affecting the data set over the past 2 1/2 years - the pandemic.The world is now opening up again so logic would dictate player numbers would naturally equalize back to around pre-pandemic levels as life returns to normal. That process however takes a while, but when you see a single event like U35 drive a drop in revenue you can and must correct that as a member of management as that will be used in the evaluation of your annual personal performance affecting your position, promotability (and maybe your employment) and your bonus, and the company's fiscal performance which the board and shareholders are concerned with.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »We tell them that there is a communication issue. They respond asking what could make it better. Seems pretty reasonable.
All of the things wrong with their communication, this is the least of their issues.
It was reasonable a few years back.
I mean, I get what the question is and who it was directed at. That much was immediately obvious to me when I saw it.
By now, I would expect ZOS to come out and say "this is how we solved it" not "what does this mean?"
As such, it seems to me that this is the core issue, not the least of their issues. It is like they have been at the starting line on this issue for the last 8 years and they are still trying to decide what to do.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Agenericname wrote: »We tell them that there is a communication issue. They respond asking what could make it better. Seems pretty reasonable.
All of the things wrong with their communication, this is the least of their issues.
It was reasonable a few years back.
I mean, I get what the question is and who it was directed at. That much was immediately obvious to me when I saw it.
By now, I would expect ZOS to come out and say "this is how we solved it" not "what does this mean?"
As such, it seems to me that this is the core issue, not the least of their issues. It is like they have been at the starting line on this issue for the last 8 years and they are still trying to decide what to do.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Many of the players weren't here when the game started. So the same conversation may need to be had multiple times. Unless ZOS establishes a culture that promotes communication, which IMO they have not, I would expect them to ask this very question as part of the feedback loop until we get where we need to be.
We arent going to get anywhere with communication until we are all on the same page, or at least until they hit the major areas of concern.
They did get feedback from that question. If I were going to criticize for the poor communication it would be the failure to act on the information that they were given, not the question itself. And it would be for not asking in official forums. PTS feedback is here. Many of the other stickied feedback threads are here. Ask that question here for the sake of continuity instead of an external media source.
The issue that I see isnt that they asked it, thats fine. In another 2 years there will be different people on the PTS, hopefully, and the communication will have different expectations to some degree. Its that they asked in a venue that is not where the communication on our side happens.
So we test on the PTS. We give feedback in the official forums which has a section dedicated to that feedback. We complain there that we want more communication. They respond and ask that question elsewhere potentially avoiding the very people that made the observation. Thats a problem.
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Memory_In_Motion✭✭✭✭I have no idea what you all go on about. Every time i complete a zones skyshards, i get an instant message telling me i can spend real world cash on buying those shards for all my other toons through the crown store.
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jle30303✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thing is: Communication doesn't just mean talking.
Communication also means LISTENING and REACTING. As in, hearing what the players are saying, reacting to it, addressing their actual concerns, doing things about them, or NOT DOING THINGS if the thing you want to do is unacceptable to the players.7 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We've removed some comments that were bashing, non-constructive and discussing moderator actions.- Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.
- Discussing Disciplinary Actions: If you ever have questions or concerns about a disciplinary action or decision we have made on the ESO forums, or wish to appeal a forum warning or infraction you’ve received, we ask that you please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to do so (please specify that you are contacting about a forum-related inquiry or appeal). We are happy to discuss and review specific moderation-related actions with you, but we do not allow discussion of any moderation actions or decisions on our forums. If you have questions or concerns about an in-game disciplinary action, please contact https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/ to ask about a suspension or ban, and any other support-related feedback. We cannot assist with in-game violations on the forums.
Thank you for understanding.1 -
Memory_In_Motion✭✭✭✭Generally speaking, not mentioning people by name but speaking in general terms, one can not reasonably expect to have a conversation when speaking broadly about an issue is not permissible.0
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agenericname wrote: »Agenericname wrote: »We tell them that there is a communication issue. They respond asking what could make it better. Seems pretty reasonable.
All of the things wrong with their communication, this is the least of their issues.
It was reasonable a few years back.
I mean, I get what the question is and who it was directed at. That much was immediately obvious to me when I saw it.
By now, I would expect ZOS to come out and say "this is how we solved it" not "what does this mean?"
As such, it seems to me that this is the core issue, not the least of their issues. It is like they have been at the starting line on this issue for the last 8 years and they are still trying to decide what to do.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Many of the players weren't here when the game started. So the same conversation may need to be had multiple times. Unless ZOS establishes a culture that promotes communication, which IMO they have not, I would expect them to ask this very question as part of the feedback loop until we get where we need to be.
We arent going to get anywhere with communication until we are all on the same page, or at least until they hit the major areas of concern.
They did get feedback from that question. If I were going to criticize for the poor communication it would be the failure to act on the information that they were given, not the question itself. And it would be for not asking in official forums. PTS feedback is here. Many of the other stickied feedback threads are here. Ask that question here for the sake of continuity instead of an external media source.
The issue that I see isnt that they asked it, thats fine. In another 2 years there will be different people on the PTS, hopefully, and the communication will have different expectations to some degree. Its that they asked in a venue that is not where the communication on our side happens.
So we test on the PTS. We give feedback in the official forums which has a section dedicated to that feedback. We complain there that we want more communication. They respond and ask that question elsewhere potentially avoiding the very people that made the observation. Thats a problem.
Perhaps proving your point, there are a few different players answering the question now than were there back in January when we did respond to her questions after the tweet made its way to the forums (and she responded to us then, linked above).
It's an evergreen question, though perhaps there is something to be said about the difference between solicited and unsolicited answers.
Additionally, I want to note that the kerfuffle was followed by a spate of threads where ZOS_Kevin (and presumably others) looked for ways to improve the forum experience. They have made noticeable changes based on our feedback, like the new Dev icons, gathering up weekly articles into a post on the forums, improved event calenders, and generally making a much stronger effort to keep players in the loop here in general and particularly this PTS cycle.
That's not to say there haven't been some missteps. Looking at just this PTS cycle, players on Discord found out that Empower would not impact medium weaving a couple days before Gina posted it on the forums.Players found out Aug 13: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/614899/medium-weaving-officially-dead-for-update-35And to my knowledge, I don't think this tweet by ZOS_Finn ever got announced by a Dev on the forums despite its implications for players going on to U36.
Gina posted Aug 17: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615168/additional-combat-changes-for-update-35/p1
Those are exactly the sort of things where the forums should have been informed, if not first, then certainly soon after by an official source rather than players carrying over the news. If it's official enough to share off-platform on Discord or Twitter, surely it's official enough for the forums.
So its not perfect. There's room for improvement. I'm sure many of us are weary of congratulating ZOS for making baby steps in the right direction, but the topic of Gina's tweet is one where I was there back in January and it's been interesting to see what fruit has come from that tree.Edited by VaranisArano on August 26, 2022 11:00PM2 -
Hawco10✭✭✭✭This thread has shown me that we don’t need “Community Managers” what are they managing ? It’s not the customers, or their communication concerns, only feedback so far is some random mod telling posters off.
Never any acceptable level of engagement, only time you see/hear one is on a zoom nodding their head at the right time to try and stay relèvent.
ZOS- you should look at your hiring process and job descriptions.
This thread and countless others just drift away unanswered.
In other words- the silence is deafening while the tumbleweed drifts by…
6