Why do we have to beg for communication?

Asdara

Let's take a brief look at previous post, to see what information regarding the intention of the combat team so far.


Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61969

Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62493

The juicy part is :
"we’re continuing with last year’s approach where we slow down on the large-scale combat changes since there’s already a lot of new systems and features to take in."
"Moving forward, we’re dedicated to addressing any fallout that happens as a result of this, ensuring that our original goal of enabling player choice and customization is still being met."
"reduce the need of large sweeping changes in subsequent updates"
"The main focuses in Update 35: improving accessibility to the game’s combat"

Improving accessibility?
Reduce the need for large sweeping changes
Slow down on the large-scale combat changes?
Ensuring that player choice and customization is still being met?

As @ramdrop pointed out in another post:
There are only 3 questions that I would like answered that are I feel are far more important than the rest.
1. What is the real purpose behind these changes?
[snip]
3. And WHY do you keep being silent about all of this?

What happened to that Q&A you were talking about here?


[snip]

Maybe it would be good FINALLY to start communicating with your players before this game turns into a desert.


[edited for discussion of disciplinary actions and bashing]

VaranisArano

I think the Combat Team meant to say that they were slowing down combat changes for the Chapter Update.

i.e. let players adapt to the new Chapter, not the new Chapter AND nerfing DPS across the board.

I'm sure the Marketing Department appreciates them pushing off U35's bad publicity for three months after the Chapter Launch instead of tainting High Isle with it.

vivisectvib16_ESO

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

Hurbster

[snip] Now if only the devs would show the same keenness in actually talking and discussing why they are doing what they are doing with us, instead of snippy tweets.

How about er, let's say off the top of my head a 'live letter' before every patch where the chief dev and the team go through all the changes and explain them.

Revolutionary, no?

And let me just say, good customer service starts at the top.

[edited for discussion of disciplinary actions]

Asdara

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

Remember this gem?

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

@ZOS_GinaBruno
Could we genuinely talk about communication?
For the love of god, this update makes literally people cry!
When are you drawing the line? ENOUGH

Rohamad_Ali

It's not the first time they've changed the combat for the worse an it wont be the last. ZoS gives statements when they feel like it. They are not like other game companies. I've come to accept that when these things happen, just take a back seat for awhile until some patches come through. Everyone knows its going to be painful awhile.

ZOS_Lunar

Hello!

We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines of the Community Rules we have in place.

We do not tolerate abusive language or disruptive behavior on our forums. This goes for abusive and disruptive comments and behavior that are directed at a ZeniMax Online employee and ESO community member, alike. Please remember to be respectful and constructive at all times on our forums, and help us maintain a friendly and welcoming atmosphere for all.

If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

Thank you for your understanding.

Sandman929

We have to beg so that eventually ZoS can apologize and vow to do better...all of this has happened before and will happen again.

blktauna

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Geez, just give them some time.

This behaviour has been going on for at least 3 years. How long should we give them?
Honestly if players had an idea of what all the turmoil and upheaval wa in aid of, there would be a lot less confusion and hostility.

I am totally mystefied as to why this grand plan isn't being outlines and promoted and milestones checked off by getting player involvement. ZOS complains about knee jerk reaction yet how does one react to an unwelcome unprepared for surprise. Exactly the way the playerbase reacted.

Imagine the difference if you had bothered to get the playerbase onboard, ZOS.

Jaraal

blktauna wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Geez, just give them some time.

This behaviour has been going on for at least 3 years. How long should we give them?
Honestly if players had an idea of what all the turmoil and upheaval wa in aid of, there would be a lot less confusion and hostility.

I am totally mystefied as to why this grand plan isn't being outlines and promoted and milestones checked off by getting player involvement. ZOS complains about knee jerk reaction yet how does one react to an unwelcome unprepared for surprise. Exactly the way the playerbase reacted.

Imagine the difference if you had bothered to get the playerbase onboard, ZOS.

It's hard to share a plan when it changes every week.

VaranisArano

Hurbster wrote: »

[snip] Now if only the devs would show the same keenness in actually talking and discussing why they are doing what they are doing with us, instead of snippy tweets.

How about er, let's say off the top of my head a 'live letter' before every patch where the chief dev and the team go through all the changes and explain them.

Revolutionary, no?

And let me just say, good customer service starts at the top.

[edited for discussion of disciplinary actions]

How would the Live Letter be substantially different from the Combat Preview?

Most Updates aren't nearly so contentious nor do they see as much walking back of the original Combat Preview as this one. Though combined with the weekly updates on what to expect changed on the PTS and why, I think we got a fair glimpse of what the Combat Team was thinking. (Now, we didn't like most of the answers we got, but that doesn't mean we didn't get them.) I'd like to see the Devs continue with those weekly updates explaining upcoming PTS changes.

So I guess I'm not sure what the Live Letter would accomplish that the Combat Preview + weekly PTS explanations wouldn't. Can you elaborate, please?

TheGreatBlackBear

Asdara wrote: »

Let's take a brief look at previous post, to see what information regarding the intention of the combat team so far.


Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61969

Source: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/62493

The juicy part is :
"we’re continuing with last year’s approach where we slow down on the large-scale combat changes since there’s already a lot of new systems and features to take in."
"Moving forward, we’re dedicated to addressing any fallout that happens as a result of this, ensuring that our original goal of enabling player choice and customization is still being met."
"reduce the need of large sweeping changes in subsequent updates"
"The main focuses in Update 35: improving accessibility to the game’s combat"

Improving accessibility?
Reduce the need for large sweeping changes
Slow down on the large-scale combat changes?
Ensuring that player choice and customization is still being met?

As @ramdrop pointed out in another post:
There are only 3 questions that I would like answered that are I feel are far more important than the rest.
1. What is the real purpose behind these changes?
[snip]
3. And WHY do you keep being silent about all of this?

What happened to that Q&A you were talking about here?


[snip]

Maybe it would be good FINALLY to start communicating with your players before this game turns into a desert.


[edited for discussion of disciplinary actions and bashing]

[snip]. One of life's burning questions. kekw

AinSoph

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

Why is a Community Manager basically asking us "how do you talk to people?"

Luke_Flamesword

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »
Geez, just give them some time.


This behaviour has been going on for at least 3 years. How long should we give them?

It was joke, but they censored whole joke part and leave this without context... -_-

SaffronCitrusflower

AinSoph wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

Why is a Community Manager basically asking us "how do you talk to people?"

And why are they asking the question on twitter instead of on the official forums?

Chadak

A continuous cycle of grand, sweeping, game-changing rewrites of rules and systems doesn't speak towards there being any long-term plan at all.

[snip]

When it looks like two or more factions in a team are playing tug of war with system design, its usually because two or more factions in a team are playing tug of war with system design. It's usually very obvious and unmistakable, and this is exactly what that looks like.

[snip]

It is what it is. It won't be changing anytime soon. This is just the way they do things. Deal with it or don't.

[edited for bashing]

Jaimeh

Dragonlord573 wrote: »

EmilyElizabethESO wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Luke_Flamesword wrote: »

Geez, just give them some time.

This behaviour has been going on for at least 3 years. How long should we give them?
Honestly if players had an idea of what all the turmoil and upheaval wa in aid of, there would be a lot less confusion and hostility.

I am totally mystefied as to why this grand plan isn't being outlines and promoted and milestones checked off by getting player involvement. ZOS complains about knee jerk reaction yet how does one react to an unwelcome unprepared for surprise. Exactly the way the playerbase reacted.

Imagine the difference if you had bothered to get the playerbase onboard, ZOS.

[snip]

[snip]

Yikes, I didn't know about that comment... I guess it went downhill from there.

Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things. ZOS has made PR damage control 'letters to the community' before, but they didn't follow through with actions, so I'm not interested in more of those statements if they are just empty words.

[edited to remove quote]

Ragnarok0130

ZOS_Lunar wrote: »

Hello!

We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines [snip]

Thank you for your understanding.

About this part "We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive" can you get your employees on board with this basic business practice as well?



The thing is, being "civil and constructive" only works if both parties are on board with the concept. The moment one side decides to be nonconstructive a battle ensues and this tweet happened when the week 1 patch notes dropped setting the entire tone for the interaction between community and dev team for U35.

The community left an intense amount of detailed feedback including videos, logs, parses, statistical and experiential data for the team to use - yes we experienced the content as the tweet requested and the community was proven correct and the truck went full speed off of the cliff regardless. Instead of walking back these almost universally panned changes we got sweeping unnecessary combat and bafflingly even animation changes, gas lighting about accessibility that actually harmed accessibility, the destruction of the end game raiding scene, trust in the dev team at an all time rock bottom, and a large amount of animosity between both parties. Not exactly what I'd personally call a successful project as a businessman.

I sincerely hope there will be an in depth after action review taking place on Update 35 and where everything we so severely wrong.

Thank you for your understanding.

dmnqwk

It's easy to make mistakes when communicating with people.

Forums allow us to communicate more easily with those at the top - those you normally wouldn't get to harang so frequently and so visibly.

In the business world, of which forums are 100% most certainly NOT used for such a practice, you wouldn't find a CEO of a company lashing out with a quick 'well don't be here then' message for people because they're trained properly to consider the stock price and the company brand. Gaming companies don't seem to care about their brand in the same way regular companies do, because for some reason people still buy their games regardless of the bad press (EA, for example, had a nightmare when they released Sim City online... but the company recovered far quicker than it should've done after that PR because... the media didn't care, thus the share price didn't care and the average consumer was either unaware or simply ignored it).

If you speak to a CEO of a company face to face, they will always speak positively about things because that's what they're paid to do - to promote the brand. Creative directors, on the other hand, are not meant to deal with the public - they're untrained and ill-suited to speak to the masses and, if required for an interview, should have a media person on hand to ensure they promote a positive picture of the game. (They're personally invested in JUST the game... not the company brand)

Forum personas, on the other hand, are also not personally invested in the company - they receive a pay and do their job, but if they do a good job they wont get extra money like a CEO would. So perhaps therein lies the issue with communication. Nobody is both invested AND suited to talk to us, so often we're left scrabbling for answers from people who either know what's going on.. or are capable of telling us

While you're frustrated with changes - don't go on about how you're frustrated... don't even go on about WHY. It's a personal thing that won't cause the mass movement your head thinks will happen - instead, focus on scientifically explaining how things are worse. For example... my damage on my normal dungeon tanks has dropped to below 20k... so I just won't bother doing them. That's up to 3 dungeons per day that will no longer have a real tank. If 1000 people did that, perhaps things would change. But going 'im really annoyed grrr imma quit' solves nothing.

mzprx

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

what in Oblivion...?



this is unheard of! a community manager asks what does it mean to US? IS IT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND that we just want more than some patch notes? like, Templars would like to know why did you people at ZOS feel the need to change the spear model and animation when no one has ever complained about the old one? also, why did you not model a brand new spear but used the ugliest possible staff motif in the game instead? was it too much work? other players would appreciate if you'd let them know why did you start the last PTS with the word "accessibility", yet the ultimate result is the complete opposite of that? why did you think that a flat 10% boss HP reduction is sufficient enough for all players to access more veteran content? why did you say not that long ago that you were done with radical game balance "improvements" and want to focus on small changes, yet the last update can be called a total game and combat overhaul? you know, this kind of thing. we only see the end result and many of us aren't happy with it. a bit of in-depth explanation for all these changes and the direction in which you're trying to take this game forward would come a long way. communication. the process of sending, receiving or exchanging information by speaking, writing or using other medium..

Aardappelboom

mzprx wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

what in Oblivion...?



this is unheard of! a community manager asks what does it mean to US? IS IT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND that we just want more than some patch notes? like, Templars would like to know why did you people at ZOS feel the need to change the spear model and animation when no one has ever complained about the old one? also, why did you not model a brand new spear but used the ugliest possible staff motif in the game instead? was it too much work? other players would appreciate if you'd let them know why did you start the last PTS with the word "accessibility", yet the ultimate result is the complete opposite of that? why did you think that a flat 10% boss HP reduction is sufficient enough for all players to access more veteran content? why did you say not that long ago that you were done with radical game balance "improvements" and want to focus on small changes, yet the last update can be called a total game and combat overhaul? you know, this kind of thing. we only see the end result and many of us aren't happy with it. a bit of in-depth explanation for all these changes and the direction in which you're trying to take this game forward would come a long way. communication. the process of sending, receiving or exchanging information by speaking, writing or using other medium..

I agree that communication can be improved but first: this "quote and bash" is not needed, I have had my share of critique for ZOS but it should not be pointed to the community managers which, in my opinion, do a pretty good job.

I see @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_GinaBruno replying, taking feedback and I am sure they are honest people and relay this stuff to the team for us. This is often how it goes, they're in the trenches, wether or not an issue is tackled depends on the entire company organisation, their way of prioritizing issues, their way of setting up communications, ... in the end they can only return to us with what they get.

I'd even applaud anyone who goes to twitter to ask what their customers are looking for, it's a fair question and a question which undoubtably gave her a lot of valueable feedback.

If anything, ZOS is a company that has seen succes and is growing rapidly, this growth often means different people in certain positions get out of touch with the daily happenings and a disconnect happens within the company, it's nothing weird but it is a problem nonetheless.

What I miss most in their communication, and what would fix a lot of things is just talking about where they're going, which issues and dilemma's they are facing and what their ideas are. They keep it all hush hush, for sake of secrecy or because they want to get it just right before releasing any info. But just releasing some info, testing the waters a bit, see how players react to ideas they have, it helps get a clear picture of what will work and what won't. In all honesty we see way to little of the creative director and his vision for this game, he's essentially the program manager of this entire thing, I'm (genuinly) interested in his thoughts and vision.

Just as an example: don't be afraid to tell us if you're going to change the combat system, tell us 6 months early and use the forums. People will react, you can find out why and start working toward solutions that cater to the audience. Even if no-one can try it or experience, it's the perfect practice play ground. You see exactly how people react to changes you propose, if the reactions are bad, use the time to convince people you're making the right decisions, host a stream, tell them why, all the while collecting feedback which makes you're entire development process a lot easier.

In the end, they do need to look at this update and pivot towards a more sustainable form of communciation and development. but just to state it again, some of these post are way to personal and honestly a bit short sighted. It's never one person and it shouldn't be a witch hunt, just criticize the update and the company, no need to target the people.

MasterSpatula

Careful, folks. Remember that "bashing" means whatever they want it to mean. I don't want to see any of you get bans for caring about this game.

Jaraal

Jaimeh wrote: »

Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things.

Except that's not really how corporations work.

When profits (and users, subscribers, consumers, etc) go down, funds and manpower are reallocated to more profitable sectors. And at some point, when the profit to loss margin becomes unacceptable, they will abandon the project and cut their losses.

It's a common misconception that we can "make ZOS pay for what they've done" by withholding funds. Their accountants will just monitor the loss in profits and decide how much less of the corporate budget will be allocated to the game.

siddique

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ZOS_Lunar wrote: »

Hello!

We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines [snip]

Thank you for your understanding.

About this part "We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive" can you get your employees on board with this basic business practice as well?



The thing is, being "civil and constructive" only works if both parties are on board with the concept. The moment one side decides to be nonconstructive a battle ensues and this tweet happened when the week 1 patch notes dropped setting the entire tone for the interaction between community and dev team for U35.

The community left an intense amount of detailed feedback including videos, logs, parses, statistical and experiential data for the team to use - yes we experienced the content as the tweet requested and the community was proven correct and the truck went full speed off of the cliff regardless. Instead of walking back these almost universally panned changes we got sweeping unnecessary combat and bafflingly even animation changes, gas lighting about accessibility that actually harmed accessibility, the destruction of the end game raiding scene, trust in the dev team at an all time rock bottom, and a large amount of animosity between both parties. Not exactly what I'd personally call a successful project as a businessman.

I sincerely hope there will be an in depth after action review taking place on Update 35 and where everything we so severely wrong.

Thank you for your understanding.

This.

Jaraal

Aardappelboom wrote: »

What I miss most in their communication, and what would fix a lot of things is just talking about where they're going, which issues and dilemma's they are facing and what their ideas are. They keep it all hush hush, for sake of secrecy or because they want to get it just right before releasing any info.

Let's not forget that a lot of the taciturn nature of their communication is due to legal circumspection. Zenimax has been involved in some pretty big lawsuits, and there's no doubt that their lawyers are quite active in monitoring what can be disclosed and how.

Agenericname

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

ZOS_Lunar wrote: »

Hello!

We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive, and within the guidelines [snip]

Thank you for your understanding.

About this part "We would like to remind everyone that all posts should be kept civil, constructive" can you get your employees on board with this basic business practice as well?



The thing is, being "civil and constructive" only works if both parties are on board with the concept. The moment one side decides to be nonconstructive a battle ensues and this tweet happened when the week 1 patch notes dropped setting the entire tone for the interaction between community and dev team for U35.

The community left an intense amount of detailed feedback including videos, logs, parses, statistical and experiential data for the team to use - yes we experienced the content as the tweet requested and the community was proven correct and the truck went full speed off of the cliff regardless. Instead of walking back these almost universally panned changes we got sweeping unnecessary combat and bafflingly even animation changes, gas lighting about accessibility that actually harmed accessibility, the destruction of the end game raiding scene, trust in the dev team at an all time rock bottom, and a large amount of animosity between both parties. Not exactly what I'd personally call a successful project as a businessman.

I sincerely hope there will be an in depth after action review taking place on Update 35 and where everything we so severely wrong.

Thank you for your understanding.

Maybe that's why he isnt on the forums anymore. Maybe they banned him.

Agenericname

AinSoph wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

Why is a Community Manager basically asking us "how do you talk to people?"

It's not an unreasonable question, or questions. "What type of things are you typically looking for?" and "Where are you looking for it?" are both very valid questions.

Of all the low hanging fruit with this patch, and especially their communication, criticizing someone for asking questions that could potentially make it better wouldn't be where I would start. albeit, that quote was months prior to the PTS.

Nomadic_Atmoran

[snip] U35 is going to go down as one of the worst updates in the history of ESO but guaranteed by late January when they ramp up their campaign to announce the next chapter. It will all be forgotten. Because that sweet sweet dopamine hit from the excitement over new content will make people forget that they are struggling to actually enjoy the game they currently have.

[edited for bashing]

Elsonso

Jaraal wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Back to the OP, the only surefire way for any company to sit up and take notice is if profit goes down. Voting with your wallet, so to speak. That's when they start addressing things.

Except that's not really how corporations work.

When profits (and users, subscribers, consumers, etc) go down, funds and manpower are reallocated to more profitable sectors. And at some point, when the profit to loss margin becomes unacceptable, they will abandon the project and cut their losses.

It's a common misconception that we can "make ZOS pay for what they've done" by withholding funds. Their accountants will just monitor the loss in profits and decide how much less of the corporate budget will be allocated to the game.

Actually, by withholding funds, we can get something in return. If the bean counters decide not to spend development money, they will likely continue to keep the servers up to milk whatever they can out of the game. The developers, of course, will go off to other projects, but the live services people will continue to keep the game running. In the current environment, the players win if this happens. Yes, we lose new content, but we also don't have them changing combat every few weeks. I consider this to be a marginal victory for the players.

AinSoph

Agenericname wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GinaLBruno/status/1475905404316045323

Why is a Community Manager basically asking us "how do you talk to people?"

It's not an unreasonable question, or questions. "What type of things are you typically looking for?" and "Where are you looking for it?" are both very valid questions.

Of all the low hanging fruit with this patch, and especially their communication, criticizing someone for asking questions that could potentially make it better wouldn't be where I would start. albeit, that quote was months prior to the PTS.

Of course they aren't unreasonable...for a fresh hire. These sound like questions an aspiring CM would have, not one whose established in their position for a few years.

Sandman929

Considering the fact that every single update for years results in the community immediately spotting problems that any decent group of developers should have spotted themselves if they spent thinking through ideas, and adding to that the fact that those same developers stubbornly refuse accept the well documented issues that the community brings up until these problems are released into the live servers for months, it must be very difficult indeed to communicate on behalf of this development team.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]