KilianDermoth wrote: »

Maybe you should read the whole conversation before replying. It was about the backbar staff choice and explicitly about AOE fights...

Who uses Force Pulse or especially Crystal Frags on his backbar or in AOE fights!?
And who even activates Inner Light in PVE at all?
And the damage you loose on Flappy while on backbar doesnt matter that much.
And what is even an Bumpy?

While usually:
Instable wall of elements (most used destro backbar skill): AOE
Many DoTs (like a lightning form morph, a lightning splash morph, mystic orb): AOE
Volatile Familiar (activated effect): AOE
Initial hit of both Atros (even the greater one): AOE
(While dawnbreaker is very often front bared because of the extra 1% spell damage, the atro is often back bared and even the single target morph would gain extra damage from a lightning staff because of the initial hit if you switch to frontbar directly after the cast)

Conclusion: You probably just replyed without reading... 🙀

And btw. I tested both, flame and shock. In non optimized groups or even solo, the difference is neglectible, sometimes the shockstaff even yields better results. And because there is no clear winner in this scenario it is just a personal decision which one you choose.

Also for the frontbar staff choice, I just cite my self, 2 posts back:

KilianDermoth wrote: »

So front bar: flame staff!

Backbar choice is less impactful, like previously mentioned, since it is your goal to stay on the frontbar as long as possible, anyway. And damage is better on FB, because you have one more 4 and 5 piece bonus.
Also AoEs get updated to your frontbar stats and passives. Even the backbar glyph's magnitude gets updated, if you use Torugs Pact on the fronbar, for example.
So there are no Lightning Staff passives as soon as you are on the frontbar.

Debating backbar choices is only relevant, if you have synergies with set piece effects or passives. Examples are Elemental Catalyst, Burning Spellweave, or Warden's Glacial Presence.

And please keep community rules in mind.... 👍

I'd like to stay on my frontbar, where I have more spell damage, more penetration, more crit chance, more crit damage, I have an additional 4 piece bonus, the powerful 5 piece bonus of my frontbarset and my most powerful abilities (that can include shields while I solo).

Obviously I cannot speak for all players, but I think the above mentioned are pretty good reasons to not stay on the backbar for too long.

Also, not speaking for all players, I choose my backbar weapons for their synergy with my sets and passives. And I would recommend that to anyone who asks, everytime.

If someone wants to seperate single target and AoE abilities by their bars, I would assume they know what they are doing. However, I would point out that there is a trade off (i.e. utility for power) and that this trade off might not be the best choice for everyone.

On a more personal note, I lament the current imbalance, that favours Inferno Staffs over Lightning Staffs in nearly all scenarios. I would love to have a viable shock themed sorcerer.
And we haven't even talked about animations, their canceling and how important that is for weaving and consequently for DPS, where the clear victor in all cases is, again, the Inferno Staff, even on the backbar.

KilianDermoth wrote: »

... no one, except you, was considering a lightning staff for front bar. No one...

Can I get a quote, please? I'd really like to clear up the misunderstanding.

And please keep community rules in mind.... 👍

@KilianDermoth
Exactly! Couldn't agree more.

But to try and explain myself a little better, I want to say, that I like to keep a general perspective on the forums, as often as possible. In my opinion that helps readers to absorb not just specific information, but learn about the rationale behind it. If I find the correct words to say it, that is. ( 😔 Sry again, that one was on me...)
You know, get the reader to make the judgement call himself/herself the next time.
I also think this helps players deal with the constant combat changes and new META each patch. Changing information, but identical rationale behind it.

This is actually why I repeated your statement about using the Inferno Staff for the frontbar. I felt it was the most important info from your previous posts, but it got drowned a little in all the other hands on very good information.
By putting it down in a condensed form, I tried to highlight it, not invalidate or even challenge it.

Now on the Lightning Staff backbar topic...
I get the impression, that with "AoE situations" you have a specific picture in mind. And I guess it is the AoE trash fights in Trials, normal and veteran. Or elite adwaves during Bossfights, where you can't swap abilities. Something you also rarely see outside of trials.
And to use a Lightning Staff on a dedicated bar seems to me the best way to go. Totally agree. In this case.

However, my own experience says that this case (difficult AoE situations, eg in Trials) is one of 5% to maybe 10% of all in game encounters, where the Lightning Staff clearly pulls ahead of Inferno;
In about 60% Inferno is the better choice; in about 30% they are so close, that swapping gear and abilities is often more effort than its worth. Or I would be gaining only one or two GCD by comparison, which isn't that much.

So generally I am leaning toward Inferno over Lightning.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

To recommend anything specific, we would need to know for what content.
Solo, Group, Arenas. Damage dealing, Support maybe?
Normal or Veteran difficulty?

As a pet sorc, I think the role is damage. Maybe there's some design where they can play a support role in a group providing buffs to others, but I'm not familiar with it and it's not what I'm looking at.

I'd think I should plan for vet.

I see it as sort of escalating. I've been doing some vet dungeons including hard mode bosses, it goes well. What are next steps? Add in trials, vet trials, solo world bosses, or who knows what. Maybe at some point I use a different build for 'raids'.

And what do you feel where you are lacking or where you are strong. Survival, Sustain, Damage?

Not sure, all could be improved I think. Survivability isn't bad with pet heal but sometimes there are 1 shots.

And best say what sets you decided to use, right now. That might open up some possibilities.

That's what I'm looking at now. Set suggestions above are medium and heavy, I still think of a sorc as light armor. I started farming some Medusa, but notice the recommendations are basically all about crit.

So I had been looking at mad tinkerer's, then Medusa and tzosomething are suggested. Also looking at monster set.

Petoften wrote: »

Hate how you can't edit on this forum.

Forum Website has two versions, mobile and desktop.
For mobile view: There is this little cog symbol in the top right of your post. Hit it and the edit button pops up at the bottom of your screen.
For desktop view: The cog symbol is also at the top right of your posts, but the edit button pops up right underneath the cog.

Petoften wrote: »

Hate how you can't edit on this forum.

You can edit your posts.

When you hover your post a gear appears in the top right corner of your post. If you click it a menu opens where you have the edit option.

But if you just created a post the gear wont show up, you have to reload the website first... (bug?)

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

one Mythic (ideally the Kilt) and a one piece Monster set on the helmet.

One mythic and 1 piece monster set is usually the most ideal option (depending on the mythic and encounter). But in dungeons, especially in PUGs or with bad tanks I dont recommend the kilt, because it often wont stack high enough in such situations to be worth and frequently will loose all stacks.

In this case (to get a more reliable mythic) someone could replace the kilt with another mythic item:
1. Moras whispers: high damage but you need high isle and the completion of shalidors library
2. Death dealers fete: good damage and increases survivability with very long lasting stacks that usually wont be removed completely
3. Markyn ring of majesty: very similar to death dealers fete but without stacks
4. Thrassian stranglers: highest damage but will decrease your survivability

If you use mythic items than slimecraw is usually the best option (if you dont need extra sustain or penetration), because it provides slightly higher crit (best stat) than usual and other monster sets. It doesnt matter if the 1 piece item is a shoulder or a head.

But it is also completely fine to run monster sets instead of a mythic, especially in non optimally organized groups which will yield similar damage. Also this option is good especially if you dont have access (to all) mythics.

The two options for monster sets I recommend in almost any case and which dont need special preconditions:
1. Stormfist: the stamina recovery bonus isnt that great on a magicka character but the damage of this set compensates for this and makes it still one of the strongest options. Also the set synergizes well with the sorcerer because both damage types (shock and physical) are boosted by the Sorc class passives and even without this its one of the strongest options (even for other classes, no matter if magicka or stamina). Further it provides good single target damage on top of some cleave if the adds stay tightly enough. And it is proct just by doing damage.

The main downside of this monster set is, that the proc can be wasted (what happens often when fighting adds that move around or are stackt bad).

2. Maw of the infernal (the big daedroth): its still one of the strongest monstersets and isnt far behind most mythic items. Also while being strong on any class it again synergizes with the sorcerer, because it counts as a pet, so all damage of this monsterset is boosted by deadric prey. Because daedric prey will get a buff next patch the monsterset indirectly will be buffed on a sorcerer too and will be even stronger than it is now. The daedroth has good single target damage and provides some cleave (with its breath), also it can proc burning on enemies frequently which will increase the damage even further. Its just perfect for a "pet sorcerer". While the proc cant be wasted that easy as with storm fist, because the deadroth can move around, it has a little travel time (but spawns directly at the first adds position).

There are still 2 main downsides. The monsterset doesnt have a 100% uptime and depends on light attacks (so you should be able to weave, but its not as bas as kinras or kjalnar in this regard, so even bad weaving is sufficient). The other downside (sometimes upside xD) is that some tanks really hate this daedroth (because it is is big and may cover a big portion of the battlefield) and you usually wont be able to use it in trials because of this very reason.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

But to start out I recommend to have Mother's Sorrow on the Body and Order's Wrath for the frontbar and jewellery.

Thats not a good advice. Because Orders Wrath is the stronger set and the overall damage would be higher if it is active on both bars, so orders wrath should be on body and mother sorrow on weapons.

But if he doesnt has another source for minor force than tzogvin / medusa (dont use both, they dont stack!) is even stronger than mother sorrow and orders wrath. Both shouldnt be on body, because of diferrent reasons.

Medusa: is heavy armor, so you shouldnt wear it on body, if you use a ring as mythic item than one chest piece is fine (and will increase your survivability) but you shouldnt wear more than 1 heavy armor piece ever as damage dealer. Btw. the undaunted passive compensates a little bit for the damage loss of wearing 1 heavy armor piece, because it will boost your resources for wearing 1 heavy piece.

Tzogvin: is medium armor, since hybridization its ok to wear a few medium armor pieces. But the effect of this set can be active on the back bar for a short time so in single target scenarios (boss fights) it works on weapons as good as on body so there is no loss to wear it on weapons + jewelery, its even ok to wear it on weapon + body (if you want some medium armor pieces).

But I highly recommend to use barbed trap if possible, it is really strong now but in the next patch it gets a really big buff so not useing it might be a damage loss in almost any case.

Here is my recommendation (all are easy to get).

With barbed trap:
Body: Orders Wrath
Weapon / Jewelry: Mother Sorrow / Pillars of Nirn (easy and strong) / Kinras (you need good weaving)

Without barbed trap:
Body: Orders Wrath
Weapon / Jewelry: Medusa or Tzogvin
(1 medusa piece on chest is ok, 1 or more Tzogvin pieces on body are ok, I even recommend at least 1 medium piece on body, no matter how you build, because medium armor boosts your damage and will trigger the undaunted passive, its always a damage gain, to wear at least 1 light and at least 1 medium piece)

But trial sets (even non perfected, which are really easy to farm and can be done in almost any random group) usually can be even stronger than this options, for example:
1. Bahseis Mania: always good but needs to drain your magicka to be most effective, but nonetheless is still often one of the best options even if you dont manage your magicka below 30%, but it doesnt boost pets damage
2. Mantle of Siroria: always great when you dont have to run around much
3. Yandirs Might: weaker than some of the other options, but works always in any situation and boosts everything. Can be front bared (similar as Tzogvin).
4. Whorl of Depths: great and can be even front bared.
5. Coral Riptide: you need to drain your stamina to make it work, but great if you can.
6. False Gods devotion: worst of the bunch but still nonetheless not a weak set and of similar strength as mother sorrow, while it improves your sustain. If you dont care to much about the sustain bonus you can even front bar it. If you want to run a monster set and a mythic item you could even wear only 4 pieces of this set, without loosing any significant damage (perfected) or even any damage (non perfected) at all.
7. Sul Xans Torment: great if you have adds around, can in some circumstances be front bared. Bad if you are fighting only a boss.
8. Arms of Releuen: great but exclusively single target, so great against bosses but bad against adds. Even not optimal it could be front bared if needed.

If you wear one of them (wearing 2 trial sets is usually not that great and in most cases not recommend), than I recommend this:
Body: Trial Set
Weapon / Jewelry with barbed trap: Orders Wrath / Pillars of Nirn (easy and strong) / Kinras (you need good weaving)
Weapon / Jewelry without barbed trap: Tzogvin / Medusa

Some of the trial sets can be front bared (without loosing its effect if played correct), this means be worn as weapon / jewelry and body, or a combination of it but in most cases you run the previous described layout.

Agree on those ones:

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

• drop empowered ward and use Inner Light instead.
• Use the Tormentor Pet, it is more damage, albeit not much anymore, but it adds up on Boss fights.
• Crit Surge and Blood Magic combined are enough for self healing in Pugs, even if the healer fakes healing or is just plainly bad.
• Frontbar Ultimate should be a Dawnbreaker morph for all fighters guild passives, whatever you fancy.

The reason for the dawnbreaker front bar is because of the fighters guild passives which give you ulti regeneration if you kill enemies on the bar one fighters guild ability is slotted. I like to put one fighters guild ability on each bar because of this and sometimes even slot dawnbreaker on the backbar because of this reason (if running camouflaged hunter frontbar, without barbed trap backbar).

Further any fighter guild ability gives you 3% spell damage. But there are situations where its better to use other ultimates for example in mixed fights (boss / trash phases), then you probably want something like the destruction staff ultimate (great AOE ulti) and the atronach (best single target ulti, especially with daedric prey). In this case you should slot the sorcerer ultimate on front bar because it works similar to the fighters guild skill (every sorcerer skill gives you 2%, which will yield almost the same damage).

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Boundless Storm is unideal for group content. In Trials you get the Buff from your resident DK and the DoT has only 5m range. You want to stay away from enemies, more than just 5m. No damage from this ability.

Semi-true. You should stay as close as possible to the enemy (behind its back) because of several reasons. But one of the reasons is that you probably miss out the buffs of the healer if you dont do so, so some lost ticks are the least of your concerns. And if you do so the 5m radius is fine, even if you have to move around and not any tick hits the enemy, it is ok because it is a really long lasting DoT which will do more damage in total even with some lost ticks than almost any other dot and will further allow you to use other skills (spammables) more often which will increase your damage further.

If the range is what concerns you most then you could switch to the hurricane morph which will have increased range most of the time, even more so at the end than most other dots. Especially in chaotic fights (pugs for example) ground dots get completely wasted very frequently (this is the domain of the sorcerer where he begins to shine) if the enemy moves you might only loose one or 2 ticks with boundless storm / hurricane and can just reposition without recasting and wasteing it completely, which also increases damage further. Additionally the hurricane morph helps with sustain because it costs stamina and allows your magicka to regenerate a little bit.

Further liquid flood has a 6m radius which isnt that much bigger (liquid lightning even only 4m). Also both morphs sometimes fail to fire at all (ground targeting) wasteing a whole GCD. Mystic Orb on the other side is great and has a big radius but is especially in dungeons sometimes bugged because it vanishes if it hits a wall and sometimes even little stones or stalagmits, wasteing almost any damage of the cast makeing it worse than almost any other DoT in this situations and sometimes not worth casting at all. While boundles storm / hurricane still works.

Also its just wrong that DKs provide major resolve. They dont. Its the wardens who do (that frozen hands thing) and many wardens even dont run this skill at all (especially DDs). One of the morphs even has a range of 8m so that you would have to stay close to the other dude which might run completely random instead of staying behind the boss who usually doesnt move that much with a somehow competent tank. So the chances to get this buff reliably from your teammates is very low almost 0 in pugs. And without that resistance buff some encounters might get for sure more difficult and especially non absolutely experienced players will die more often lowering theire damage to 0 in this moment, in the worst case even the damage of the other DD (negative DPS).

All in all I think it is a great skill (damage, ease of use, survivability and even utility because of the speed buff) and almost always a must have if it is possible to run it. There are only a view situations where its better to use something else. And even if you would waste the whole damage of a cast its still very long lasting and had to be cast very rarely lowering the impact on the damage output.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Once you start Trials Spell Power Pots are mandatory. That spot would be a "sticky DoT", like Consuming Trap, Degeneration or Mystic Orb for example.

Consuming Trap should be avoided as its one of the lowest damage DoTs avaialble (boundles storm can do twice the damage per cast and almost any other DoT does about 30% more damage) while proveding nothing else in most cases. It is only worth if the boss is permanently moveing around a lot and you need a sticky DoT while you dont have another option.

Degeneration on the other hand is great (even haveing the same damage output as consuming trap), because it also provides you with major sorcery, but I wouldnt run critical surge and degeneration at the same time and if using spell power potions even none. As sorcerer you dont have slots to waste for skills that give the same buffs as you already have.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Some use Razor Caltrops, because as a Stam ability it eases your Mag consumption.

The reasons for razor caltrops are usually two:
1. Improvement of magicka sustain because its a stamina skill and casting it from time to time will make you cast a magicka skill less and allow your magicka to regenerate a little bit. But there are usually better options for this (maelstrom two hander back bar, hurricane or barbed trap for example).
2. You want to provide a AOE breach but the debuff only lasts 4 seconds and often tanks already cast it (especially if they wear for example the powerful assault set, which is a common tank set) or apply the same debuff with their taunt already.

But its still a bad DoT / skill and does even less damage than consuming trap or degeneration. But it can be great in organized groups because of the debuff if the team is able to burst all adds down in this 4 second window. But nothing for the standard pug group.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

In trials you will have yo find a way to squeeze in a source for minor Force in. In Pugs that is not really neccessary, yet.

The absolute opposite is true, especially if you play a crit build!

If you stack (almost) everything into crit chance (strongest stat if built right) but has low crit damage (= building wrong) your whole build is completely crippled and you will end up with low damage even if the build looks "meta" on the first look.

In trials you get usually buffs like elemental catalysator or major force as also brittle from your teammates. All this source will increase your critical damage. In this case you will end up with a high crit damage value which will make any investment in critical chance really strong and which will allow for those really high numbers some endgamers can reach. It is even possible to go over the cap (especially as khajiit) in this case you can remove some critical damage sources as minor force for example.

But in dungeons you dont have all those sources and often end up with about 60% crit damage (light armor) without minor force and without being khajiit. This on the other hand will make any crit chance modifier 50% weaker! To counter this you have to increase your crit damage as much as possible (sometimes even the shadow mundus is the stronger choice over the thief, because of this) and minor force is an easy way to do this. With barbed trap you even get a strong DoT (next patch it gets even stronger) + the fighters guild passives.

So if you are playing a crit build you should literally always run minor force in dungeons, because not doing so is just makeing your build weaker for no actual reason! And you probably wont be able to reach the crit cap ever (as non khajiit sorc in light armor) in a dungeon, especially in a pug group. So any crit damage is a big damage gain for a crit build (who has already a high crit chance)!

Btw. this is the reason why Orders Wrath is stronger and is best worn on body instead on weapon (if combined with mother sorrow). And its further the reason why Tzogvin / Medusa are so much stronger than Mother Sorrow if you dont use barbed trap / acceleration.

An open question to the floor:
Why am I supposed to stay in melee range as a ranged DD with a ranged Weapon, ranged Spammable, Pets doing ranged Damage, etc.?
Because I do not get it. As long as I stay between the Healer and the Boss, I should be totally fine, shouldn't I?

Edit: Was the debuff for ranged Light Attacks or specifically Staff and Bow Light Attacks? Can you get full melee LA damage, when you are in melee range with a Staff?

KilianDermoth wrote: »

... Whether kinras nor pillars of nirn force you to stay in melee. Both work perfectly at range...

Of course! The condition I set was:

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

... Tzogvin or Medusa, if you have no bar space for Barbed Trap and want to stay at range.
Kinras or Pillar of Nirn, if you find a spot for a minor Force ability ...

[snip]

And getting into melee for that one second to cast Barbed Trap is a suuuuper advanced technique. Keeping up weaving while moving is really difficult. I'd never suggest that to anyone without extensive experience.

[edited for baiting]

I have been running Necropotence and something else for years on my Pet Sorc main.

I do cringe at the thought of being nerfed even more though, with the latest patch coming shortly.

They already took away my favorite Crystal Blast (with stun!) for a Stamina ability I have not found worthwhile, even on my stamsorc.

I still enjoy/enjoyed playing my main, but this could be enough to stop that if DPS goes down as much as I am cringing to hear.

Ideally, decide what you want to do in the game. I don't do Trials nor much in Veteran Dungeons, so being the perfect top has never been important for me. I suck at PvP and would likely continue to suck even if I had the best PvP set since my twitch skills are not wonderful.

I do use a lightning staff on both bars because it is much easier to play and heavy attack. I miss too many shots with a flame staff, though a couple of my alts do use one.

I just hope they don't make the game unfun!

I would really love a WoW-like Hunter class, with true fighting pet options, but I don't see that coming.

Petoften wrote: »

What trait(s) should I get on the armor (same on all or mixed?) Divines?

Yes. All Divines. All Max Magicka enchants. Thief Mundus.
By the way, what food do you use now?

And have you had a chance to test the build and take it into a vet group dungeon perhaps.

I'd like to hear what you think of how it plays. 😊

I'm about to make order's wrath armor, but having three pieces of trial armor makes me wonder if I should reconsider order's wrath as jewelry instead.

I'm running Order's Wrath, Bahsei's Mania, Sea-Serpent's Coil & 1 piece Slimecraw for dps normal trials & dungeons but I only use the volatile familiar & I also use a crit potion with ravage health (& swift on jewellery to counter the snare) to have a higher uptime on Major Berserk but you either need to have a heal slotted or a competent healer in group.

Petoften wrote: »

What trait on the inferno staff(s)? Probably precise or sharpened?

Depends. Normally, Precise is best. In groups with a Tank and support it always is.

Personally, I have a table where I calculate all my character's penetration. So I know exactly where I stand in a dungeon with faketanks, for example.
Thats why I have at least two weapons on every character. It's easy to switch in case I need more pen. Easier than teleporting to a starter zone and switch to the Lover Mundus, anyway. 😉

you know what i don't understand from all this talk and people's videos?
parses where the skill sais 10k dps but the skill never procs that high. and i have 73% crit rate and minor force.
shard, the biggest hit i remember is in the 40ks, most of the time it's in the 30s. but I can see videos where this was over 50k. Maybe they are old videos.
All i know is it feels like even though i run good stuff, the correct stats, blood thirsty, spell damage enchants, divines, etc...
skiils seem to never be as good as you see in the videos.

in vet dungeons i can be anywhere from 30 to 50% of dps.
in nss trial i was either 9 - 12% depending on which of the 3 times i went.

i don't use daedric prey or haunting curse because i use the dot that heals me, forget the name since most of my life is pug.