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Lack of Class Identity
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MaraxusTheOrc✭✭✭✭✭Your mystic orb versus blazing spear consideration seems really meaningful to me. The general skills like undaunted should absolutely be “gap fillers” and not obvious substitutes for class specific abilities. Well said.2 -
ccfeeling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
I would say they have no clue what to do.
SA is cool in Pts, but they also nerf other NB cored skills on the ground, we are on the same boat.
Spammable tends to use class skills, Zos you should listen.0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LeonAkando wrote: »The hybridization changes were completely the wrong direction to take the game, both from a class identity perspective and for RPG/lore reasons. If ZOS wanted to enable access for more hybrid builds, they should've added a new hybrid weapon line that MADE SENSE to be hybrid, like a 1 hand and rune or spellsword type skill line. Now this next patch is only going to make things worse.
The way hybridization has been handled so far has hurt a bit of class identity, but the concept itself is not harmful. For example, being a stamina build should not mean having an unused resource (magicka) in this case. It makes sense for roleplay and in game mechanics to incorporate some hybrid aspects.
A warrior sorceror (basically stamsorc) would still have the capacity to throw out the occasional powerful spell using their limited magicka pool or some form of dark healing to sustain themselves in battle.
I 100% agree with you - the changes to hybrid scaling was the correct concept and direction to take the game.
However, ZOS has no idea how to distinguish different power fantasy's properly which is why the changes feel half-baked. Class identity was bad before Hybridization and they've done nothing but nerfs since then to account for that. They're incredibly slow at introducing unique variables to the classes.
The most recent change I applaud is the dodge roll cost reduction on NB's Blur. This is the type of out of box thinking that helps make classes feel different.
Being defensive doesn't always mean being tanky. Sometimes it means being elusive. This thought process should be applied to every class, give them unique ways to play their given classes power fantasy from damage, to healing to CC.Edited by MashmalloMan on July 31, 2022 1:55AM3 -
kind_hero✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Class identity? What?
Lol I just can't stop posting this picture everywhere, cause it's a perfect representation of current state of this identity.
This, so much!
The direction they are taking the combat and class identity is not what it should be in a mmorpg! I remember how in other games there were no generic "guild" or weapon skills like in ESO. When you picked an other class, it was like a new game for at least 30 levels!
[PC/EU] Tamriel Hero, Stormproof, Grand Master Crafter2 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Remember this 2019 article? The nostalgia....
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025)2 -
washbern✭✭✭✭✭Instead of classes they should just ask what color you want to play. I am sure grim focus and blast bones will soon be nerfed into some kind of passive dots that will bring the two outlying classes into fold with the others.1 -
haelgaan✭✭✭✭✭this thread is so
100%. class skills should absolutely have an edge over non-class skills.
i'm fine with hybridizing (i like the idea of being able to mix and match stam/mag, depending on which i'm not sustaining well), but not if non-class skills are being standardized on the same level with class skills.4 -
washbern✭✭✭✭✭
Because if the META skills are all in the generic tree then why even have classes? Sure you can have a few outliers here and there but when 80% of your build are weapon and guild skills, then the class designers probably did an oppsie.2 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭And if everything is in classes you have the problem the other way around, people are forced into the class concepts exclusively and 'Play as you want' is dead.
Having class or non-class skill be the obviously better choice is ultimately a problem.1 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭At least Signature Class Skills should outperform non-class skills. Let every class have an edge in some area and a drawback in some other area. And let them have their individual play styles. Like Sorcs used to be based around burst combos. Nowadays all classes basically play the same. And the skill bars look the same.And if everything is in classes you have the problem the other way around, people are forced into the class concepts exclusively and 'Play as you want' is dead.
Having class or non-class skill be the obviously better choice is ultimately a problem.
So why not just give everybody the same 10 skills and 2 ults? Perfect balance! That would be the logical conclusion of what you propose.0 -
washbern✭✭✭✭✭
That is the plan.... notice the homoginization?At least Signature Class Skills should outperform non-class skills. Let every class have an edge in some area and a drawback in some other area. And let them have their individual play styles. Like Sorcs used to be based around burst combos. Nowadays all classes basically play the same. And the skill bars look the same.And if everything is in classes you have the problem the other way around, people are forced into the class concepts exclusively and 'Play as you want' is dead.
Having class or non-class skill be the obviously better choice is ultimately a problem.
So why not just give everybody the same 10 skills and 2 ults? Perfect balance! That would be the logical conclusion of what you propose.
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Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭At least Signature Class Skills should outperform non-class skills. Let every class have an edge in some area and a drawback in some other area. And let them have their individual play styles. Like Sorcs used to be based around burst combos. Nowadays all classes basically play the same. And the skill bars look the same.And if everything is in classes you have the problem the other way around, people are forced into the class concepts exclusively and 'Play as you want' is dead.
Having class or non-class skill be the obviously better choice is ultimately a problem.
So why not just give everybody the same 10 skills and 2 ults? Perfect balance! That would be the logical conclusion of what you propose.
No, not really. That would be the case if non-class skills were inherently superior, which I have also pointed out as a problem.
I also haven't made an actual proposal.1 -
Sahidom✭✭✭✭LeonAkando wrote: »This patch has been a massive step back in Class Identity, and the recent updates still do not fully address this.
Every single class is being boiled down to weapon abilities and shared abilities. Our class choice is effectively reduced down into what passives we get.
This has been a continual issue that every new player points out, every class feels the same and often even looks the same because they're using the same abilities. Update 35 is pushing this to the extremes.
You nailed it. A little late but you're catching on. For nearly 1/2 decade now, the Classes skill kits go through many iterations of changes, and with the uprise of so many proc sets introduced, the game itself boils down to pick a class with passives to compliment your proc sets that you'll be using. Class skills are subpar to weapon skills (Good example is Flurry trumps Jabs this upcoming patch but there are others Uppercut (D-Swing/Wrecking Blow) are better spam skills than class kit ones); Their whole "Class Identity" was fake news... but you'll catch on to that also.0 -
Marto✭✭✭✭✭
✭Is Jabs being an AoE ability not enough of an identity? It's arguably the most powerful and useful spammable in the game, just for that fact alone.
If you measure the "identity" of every class by looking at nothing but single target DPS numbers, of course every build is going to end up the same.
A lot of this class identity comes in the shape of utility skills, and the synergy between skills.
The way a Nightblade utilizes Whirling Blades is different from a DK or Templar, as Nightblades have Teleport Strike and Soul Shred. Ultimates like Dawnbreaker have a different meaning to DKs, since they lack a low-cost Ultimate. And there's of course things like pets that only 2 classes have access to (in wildly different shapes).
And now, hybridization of skills allows for that identity to shine through even more. Before that update, you'd never see a Sorcerer with Haunting Curse on their bow bar, or a Magicka DK using Lacerate to proc even more DoT item effects.
Are these skill and class combinations the absolute top of the chart DPS meta? Probably not.
But if your standards are that high... you're pretty much never going to get varied and unique playstyles. In any game. If it's a shooter, you'll end up using the same weapon all the time. If it's a farming game, your crop will be nothing but blueberries. If it's an RPG, you'll end up ignoring half the skills and classes."According to the calculations of the sages of the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, the batam guar is the cutest creature in all Tamriel"1 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I disagree that the hybridization of stats was the way to go. People wanting to play pure magicka or stamina builds are being pushed towards a changing their characters in ways they don't like, whereas those wanting to play hybrid builds will find that there no longer even is such a thing. To hybridize magicka and stamina elements requires them to be different in some way in and of themselves, not just dictating whether your build later needs more of the green or blue regeneration.
Hybrids always offered an advantage in the form of access to more powerful combinations of abilities, so a cost to building this way was justified. It just happened to be a too large one. But rather than tuning the impact of hybridizing one's stats one step at a time, it was just straight up removed so that now everyone is a "hybrid" - because why wouldn't you be? Pure builds now find themselves in a situation reminiscent of pre 1.6 stamina builds, in that they are mostly just limiting themselves to a set of abilities for little to no gain (albeit less severe, since they can at least still self heal).DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU2 -
Urvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LeonAkando wrote: »The hybridization changes were completely the wrong direction to take the game, both from a class identity perspective and for RPG/lore reasons. If ZOS wanted to enable access for more hybrid builds, they should've added a new hybrid weapon line that MADE SENSE to be hybrid, like a 1 hand and rune or spellsword type skill line. Now this next patch is only going to make things worse.
The way hybridization has been handled so far has hurt a bit of class identity, but the concept itself is not harmful. For example, being a stamina build should not mean having an unused resource (magicka) in this case. It makes sense for roleplay and in game mechanics to incorporate some hybrid aspects.
A warrior sorceror (basically stamsorc) would still have the capacity to throw out the occasional powerful spell using their limited magicka pool or some form of dark healing to sustain themselves in battle.
They already had that though, at least in PvP. Stamsorcs used Streak, Dark Deal, Crit Surge, etc. All stam classes had a good 3-4 mag skills they were already using. The hybrid changes just created a situation for a lot of classes where one morph is clearly better than the other, forcing hybridization and degrading class identity.1 -
maximusrex45✭✭✭✭✭As long as non-class skills exist this is going to be a problem.
As someone who like to Tank I feel it pretty acutely.
If they could go back in time and redesign the skill system almost all non-class skill lines should exist as something you slot into a class skill to modify how it works with a secondary effect. As an example a DK tank could slot the Puncture skill onto Lava Whip to make that their taunt.
This could also open up more players using "fun" skills if they are more utility than DPS oriented, and that leaves ZOS less skills to balance against each other.
Obviously, this would be a huge undertaking at this point, and many non-class skills that are active attacks would need to have some kind change to how they are now.0 -
acastanza_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Class abilities should always be stronger than a non-class ability that fills the same niche, and no class should have class abilities to fill every niche. That core principle seems to have been completely lost at some point.4 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭I completely disagree that Class Skills should always be stronger than Non-Class Skills.
Non-Class Skills can support Sub-Class Identity against their opposite resource Sub-Class. Non-Class Skills can support a Sub-Classes' adherence to an RPG Archetype.
Case in point, in PvP StamDK had more distinct identity from MagDK before it had access to Whip and was still reliant on Dizzy Swing, even if it has more Power with Whip. It was more of a Warrior class when it dealt most of its Direct Damage with its Maul, rather than just while holding it.
Sub-Class Identity is not the same as Sub-Class Power. MagDen and StamDen have a fairly distinct Identity in PvP, for instance, but both are widely regarded as having less Power than other Sub-Classes with less distinct Sub-Class Identity, like MagDK and StamDK.
I guess it comes down to whether you prefer a 6 Class or 12 Sub-Class paradigm.
It's definitely a complex issue, as there are at least 3 views of "Class" in this game:
1. The 6 ESO Classes
2. The 3 TES Classes (Warrior, Thief, Mage)
3. The 3 MMO Classes (Tank, DD, Healer)
Edited by Urzigurumash on August 1, 2022 7:54PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let me add to my comment here in light of changes to Molten Armaments in PvP, which I think are fair for balance, as the rare StamDK that used this skill for years to Medium Weave Dizzy Swing:
Whether a comparable Class or Universal Skill is stronger should depend on what the overall impact is on Identity, of course we will have our own ideas on what Identity should be.
But if the original identity of StamDK was to be an Earth & Fire Warrior, which seems non-controversial:
- Molten Weapons (either morph) should outperform Rally
- Dizzy Swing should outperform Whip
Or in other words, Class Skills should give us identity over our Same Resource Other Class opponents, Universal Skills should give us identity over our Opposite Resource Same Class opponents.
In the 12 Sub-Class paradigm anyhow.
People initially postulated StamWhip as a way to give us identity over StamDen/Cro/Sorc. But that was before MagDK could use Corrosive.
Edited by Urzigurumash on August 1, 2022 11:07PMXbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Molten Armaments now completely lacks a secondary effect in PvP.Urzigurumash wrote: »in light of changes to Molten Armaments in PvP, which I think are fair for balancePC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Molten Armaments now completely lacks a secondary effect in PvP.Urzigurumash wrote: »in light of changes to Molten Armaments in PvP, which I think are fair for balance
I know, I'll comment as I just did in another thread - If Empower remains popular for some PvE'rs and some actually use MA for that then that's fine, change Igneous to something better for PvP DKs.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast1 -
xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Would be nice. The original version of Igneous Weapons added flame damage to LA/HA, which was good for pressure while avoiding degenerate one-shot abuse, no idea why they had to ruin that one. The current effect is niche enough that they could just roll it into the Molten morph and have that be the dedicated PvE morph.Urzigurumash wrote: »I know, I'll comment as I just did in another thread - If Empower remains popular for some PvE'rs and some actually use MA for that then that's fine, change Igneous to something better for PvP DKs.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || retired until Dagon brings a new dawn of PvP metas1 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭This has been going on for years for the sake of "balance"
Turns out, making everything the same is the best way to balance things. This lack of class identity is the one biggest flaw of ESO for me, and I have no idea how they will fix it with the way they are approaching game balance. PvP was immune from this for a time, but these days optimum PVP builds are looking more and more the same for each class.
It started with "all <damage type> should be this strong," where dots and spammables were homogenized. They also added a "rule" that "high damage abilities shouldn't stun," so they removed stun on crystal frags and templar's blazing spear. These two particular changes were so bad for the feel of playing these two classes in PVP. Lots more cases like this.
When I play a rogue build, I want to "feel" like a rogue. Same goes for a mage or any other archetype. To do this though, the best dps rotations should stop being
"buffs->dots-> maintain buffs and dot uptime -> spammable when there's nothing else to press" or what is it now, with U35 changes? spam spammable?
To be optimum, we are left to play the same "class" just with different coats of paint.
Edited by HowlKimchi on August 2, 2022 2:17AM2 -
Urzigurumash✭✭✭✭✭
✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »
Would be nice. The original version of Igneous Weapons added flame damage to LA/HA, which was good for pressure while avoiding degenerate one-shot abuse, no idea why they had to ruin that one. The current effect is niche enough that they could just roll it into the Molten morph and have that be the dedicated PvE morph.Urzigurumash wrote: »I know, I'll comment as I just did in another thread - If Empower remains popular for some PvE'rs and some actually use MA for that then that's fine, change Igneous to something better for PvP DKs.
For sure, something Elemental would be neat, especially if it could be tied into optimally maintaining Seething Fury stacks / reapplying DoTs.Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast0 -
Jazraena✭✭✭✭✭
✭acastanza_ESO wrote: »Class abilities should always be stronger than a non-class ability that fills the same niche, and no class should have class abilities to fill every niche. That core principle seems to have been completely lost at some point.
Because it was a capitally bad idea with the classes they have in the first place. That ship has sailed.0