This changes might also lead to people just only use sticky dots and one weapon ground dot to proc enchant. The rest is spam skills with passively buff skill from Fighters or Mages Guild skill lines. But of course testing is needed with exact numbers and encounter scenarios.

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

divnyi wrote: »

Also if the problem is ignoring mechanics via huge DPS, this is boss design problem, not DPS problem.
Create additional boss mechanics that don't allow that.

Or embrace that some will always strife for more and will always become better directly or not, balancing things around 0.01% is kinda strange in this game for sake of players with way worse output.

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem you ram into is that players doing lots of damage have a tendency to screw up the experience in the lower level content.

Players don't get to learn much in many base game normal dungeons because your group probably is going to have one or more players that just nukes the snot out of everything.

jaws343 wrote: »

Ultimately, that cutoff between Base game vet and DLC vet is sharp, and nothing the base game dungeons offer prepare you adequately for DLC dungeons. So that progression is really broken for players trying to make that jump. And it only keeps getting worse as new dungeons and new trials are added that have to keep pushing the envelope in difficulty to stay competitive with previous releases.

Very well said. This is the crux of the problem ZOS is trying to address with u35

Because these entry level dungeons (like Fungal Grotto) are already so easy, raising the floor can prove to be problematic.

The way I see it, ZOS has two options.

A. Raise the damage floor. Adjust ~30 dungeons and every mob in the overland to be much harder.

B. Lower the ceiling. Adjust ~10 dungeons and trials and adjust all upcoming dungeons to fit the new values.

ZOS chose B. Which makes sense. Option A might be more thorough, but introduces far more chances for bugs and oversights. And it's far more work. It also fails to address power creep, and ensures a lot of content will be irrelevant.

ZOS simply doesn't want content to be irrelevant. What developer would? It takes a lot of time, effort, money, server, and user storage space to keep all these dungeons and zones. The alternative would be to go the Destiny 2 route, and literally delete half the content in the game. I hope I don't need to explain why that'd be bad for ESO.

If they hate big numbers so much, just do a number crunch? It'll help server performance also cuz honestly that's all what's it about no? Trying to get *** to tick only 1x every 2s etc. To up the performance, get recasts down etc. I really don't understand why "dps is too high", heck power creep helps people get into older "hard" content and gives them a chance at it EVENTUALLY. By dialing that back, you take away even that. Like lol? Nobody is allowed to do hm content? Such weird decision, like let have people have fun, it's a game, not a job.

DPS being too high is not a global problem. It is a thing for overland content, delves, public dungeons and normal group dungeons. But vet dungeons, trials - especially vet trials - are out of reach for a significant portion of the player base now before the damage gets nerfed globally and makes it even harder for the one who currently struggle badly with the harder content.

That IMO, is the worst part of this global DPS nerf. If you insiste of doing it you need to pay some attention to lowering the content difficulty for the already challenging content that is being put further out of reach for the low and mid DPS power players.

Marto wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Except they haven't chosen between A and B, they have chosen to lower EVERYONE (ceiling dipped a bit and the foundation itself is decimated) and left the content as it is, and that is not acceptable.

No, that's option B.

Keep in mind that this entry level content is still undertuned in the live servers. The floor has to be lowered slightly, although definitely not as much as pts1 did.

Depends what you mean by, "entry level content." If you mean places like Stros M'kai, or Khenarthi's Roost, then, sure. If you're talking about any base game dungeon after FG/Spindle/BC, then not really, no.

VaranisArano wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem you ram into is that players doing lots of damage have a tendency to screw up the experience in the lower level content.

Players don't get to learn much in many base game normal dungeons because your group probably is going to have one or more players that just nukes the snot out of everything.

You don't even need a nuke. I learned to tank in normal dungeons for my IRL friends who weren't great at DPS, but my problem was that I built a very strong, heavy armored, lots of HP, MagDK tank.

What's wrong with that? Well, nothing really dented me in Normal content, so I learned to ignore all those warning reds and boss mechanics.

What did it matter if Selene's bear mauled me? I could tank it.

Well...let's just say that by the time I started doing Vet dungeons with my friends, I had a very painful experience re-learning all those boss mechanics I'd previously ignored.

this is kind of why i think it should let you enable the "hard mode" in normal content

it would put the boss like halfway between the normal normal, and the normal vet

the difficulty curve i see is:

• normal
• (normal HM) (this step is currently missing, so there is no middle ground between normal and vet)
• vet
• vet HM

this would also allow you to see/practice mechanics that may happen on vet HM as well, since there is usually a huge difference between vet and vet HM, being able to see the mechanics from vet HM in a reduced form on normal might be able to help practice the content

for me personally, normal is the practice mode, not just the easy mode, if something hits you for 80% of your hp on normal, you can be 100% certain that mechanic is 1-shot on vet

my personal strategy for dealing with new dungeons is go in solo with my 10k dps tank (who can almost certainly wont do 10k dps after U35 depending on their changes) and solo the dungeon unless there is some mechanic in place that prevents doing that, this allows me to see what attacks the bosses have, what attacks they have that hit hard and basic mechanics (i do this solo because i know in a group with people i know, running a group dps of 60-80k we would burn everything down too fast to see)

Marto wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Ultimately, that cutoff between Base game vet and DLC vet is sharp, and nothing the base game dungeons offer prepare you adequately for DLC dungeons. So that progression is really broken for players trying to make that jump. And it only keeps getting worse as new dungeons and new trials are added that have to keep pushing the envelope in difficulty to stay competitive with previous releases.

Very well said. This is the crux of the problem ZOS is trying to address with u35

Because these entry level dungeons (like Fungal Grotto) are already so easy, raising the floor can prove to be problematic.

The way I see it, ZOS has two options.

A. Raise the damage floor. Adjust ~30 dungeons and every mob in the overland to be much harder.

B. Lower the ceiling. Adjust ~10 dungeons and trials and adjust all upcoming dungeons to fit the new values.

ZOS chose B. Which makes sense. Option A might be more thorough, but introduces far more chances for bugs and oversights. And it's far more work. It also fails to address power creep, and ensures a lot of content will be irrelevant.

ZOS simply doesn't want content to be irrelevant. What developer would? It takes a lot of time, effort, money, server, and user storage space to keep all these dungeons and zones. The alternative would be to go the Destiny 2 route, and literally delete half the content in the game. I hope I don't need to explain why that'd be bad for ESO.

Making a game unfun for just traversing overland is super boring though, especially when their solution seems to just be "special event overload" every other week it seems so a player can't just sit down and enjoy the content of the game without fomo being slapped across their screen.

jaws343 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem you ram into is that players doing lots of damage have a tendency to screw up the experience in the lower level content.

Players don't get to learn much in many base game normal dungeons because your group probably is going to have one or more players that just nukes the snot out of everything.

You don't even need a nuke. I learned to tank in normal dungeons for my IRL friends who weren't great at DPS, but my problem was that I built a very strong, heavy armored, lots of HP, MagDK tank.

What's wrong with that? Well, nothing really dented me in Normal content, so I learned to ignore all those warning reds and boss mechanics.

What did it matter if Selene's bear mauled me? I could tank it.

Well...let's just say that by the time I started doing Vet dungeons with my friends, I had a very painful experience re-learning all those boss mechanics I'd previously ignored.

this is kind of why i think it should let you enable the "hard mode" in normal content

it would put the boss like halfway between the normal normal, and the normal vet

the difficulty curve i see is:

• normal
• (normal HM) (this step is currently missing, so there is no middle ground between normal and vet)
• vet
• vet HM

this would also allow you to see/practice mechanics that may happen on vet HM as well, since there is usually a huge difference between vet and vet HM, being able to see the mechanics from vet HM in a reduced form on normal might be able to help practice the content

for me personally, normal is the practice mode, not just the easy mode, if something hits you for 80% of your hp on normal, you can be 100% certain that mechanic is 1-shot on vet

my personal strategy for dealing with new dungeons is go in solo with my 10k dps tank (who can almost certainly wont do 10k dps after U35 depending on their changes) and solo the dungeon unless there is some mechanic in place that prevents doing that, this allows me to see what attacks the bosses have, what attacks they have that hit hard and basic mechanics (i do this solo because i know in a group with people i know, running a group dps of 60-80k we would burn everything down too fast to see)

Normal HM would probably bridge that gap.

But I would also go a step further and just do perfected and non perfected monster sets as well. Award non perfected for regular Normal HM clears, award Perfected for Vet HM clears.

And then do something like double gear set drops for regular Vet.

Keeps players incentivized to actually climb the progression ladder. But also gives them a bit more access to monster sets that will help bridge the gap.

i dont know if i would require doing HM to get the monster set be feasible, theres many monster sets i wouldnt have as i havent completed many vet dlc dungeons on HM yet

however i do wish they had a curated way to get monster shoulders, like doing the run on normal to get a shoulder and then vet completes the monster set

maybe do like double drops on HM kind of like how they do the monster outfit pages with the increased chance of drop with a HM clear

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem you ram into is that players doing lots of damage have a tendency to screw up the experience in the lower level content.

Players don't get to learn much in many base game normal dungeons because your group probably is going to have one or more players that just nukes the snot out of everything.

You don't even need a nuke. I learned to tank in normal dungeons for my IRL friends who weren't great at DPS, but my problem was that I built a very strong, heavy armored, lots of HP, MagDK tank.

What's wrong with that? Well, nothing really dented me in Normal content, so I learned to ignore all those warning reds and boss mechanics.

What did it matter if Selene's bear mauled me? I could tank it.

Well...let's just say that by the time I started doing Vet dungeons with my friends, I had a very painful experience re-learning all those boss mechanics I'd previously ignored.

this is kind of why i think it should let you enable the "hard mode" in normal content

it would put the boss like halfway between the normal normal, and the normal vet

the difficulty curve i see is:

• normal
• (normal HM) (this step is currently missing, so there is no middle ground between normal and vet)
• vet
• vet HM

this would also allow you to see/practice mechanics that may happen on vet HM as well, since there is usually a huge difference between vet and vet HM, being able to see the mechanics from vet HM in a reduced form on normal might be able to help practice the content

for me personally, normal is the practice mode, not just the easy mode, if something hits you for 80% of your hp on normal, you can be 100% certain that mechanic is 1-shot on vet

my personal strategy for dealing with new dungeons is go in solo with my 10k dps tank (who can almost certainly wont do 10k dps after U35 depending on their changes) and solo the dungeon unless there is some mechanic in place that prevents doing that, this allows me to see what attacks the bosses have, what attacks they have that hit hard and basic mechanics (i do this solo because i know in a group with people i know, running a group dps of 60-80k we would burn everything down too fast to see)

Normal HM would probably bridge that gap.

But I would also go a step further and just do perfected and non perfected monster sets as well. Award non perfected for regular Normal HM clears, award Perfected for Vet HM clears.

And then do something like double gear set drops for regular Vet.

Keeps players incentivized to actually climb the progression ladder. But also gives them a bit more access to monster sets that will help bridge the gap.

i dont know if i would require doing HM to get the monster set be feasible, theres many monster sets i wouldnt have as i havent completed many vet dlc dungeons on HM yet

however i do wish they had a curated way to get monster shoulders, like doing the run on normal to get a shoulder and then vet completes the monster set

maybe do like double drops on HM kind of like how they do the monster outfit pages with the increased chance of drop with a HM clear

In the reward structure I proposed, you'd get the current monster set in Normal HM. So it would actually be easier to obtain than it is now, where it only drops on Vet.

You'd get a perfected monster from Vet HM.

or reduce mobs' healthpools, increase timers of events/achievments and give to those who already completed the tryfectas and so on some shiny elder puppy for them to be able to clame "i'm and old school badass" whithout preventing new ones to get their shiny thingy themselves.

if dps is drop by 20% then adjust timers and so on by the same 20% would be the easiest thing to do.
same for healing output and dmg taken.

divnyi wrote: »

Also if the problem is ignoring mechanics via huge DPS, this is boss design problem, not DPS problem.
Create additional boss mechanics that don't allow that.

Honestly, I think this is what they should be doing. One big reason DPS is so high is because a lot of people want to burn bosses as quickly as possible. People thus demand ridiculous numbers even for content that doesn't need it, simply because they want to burn through it as fast as possible. This in turn pushes people to doing higher and higher DPS so they don't get locked out of group content.

If we had mechanics that punished players for trying to burn them in 30 seconds, we would probably see DPS requirements come down, because what does it matter if you can do 100k DPS if the boss has a mechanic that renders most of it moot? I know there are certain bosses that will nuke you if you try to burn them; we should see more things like that, and less one-shot or invulnerability phase mechanics.

Of course, I do know that ZOS has made certain bosses that you actually do legit need super high DPS, which...doesn't make sense to me. The way they talk about accessibility makes it sound like it's been something they've been discussing for a while (potentially ever since they initially put the first LA/HA changes on the PTS a few years back), but if that's the case, why do they continue to make some bosses next to impossible to beat even for the top tier players?

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the whole game should be cakewalk and that there shouldn't be any sort of challenge. But they're doing that thing they do so well where they say one thing but do the complete opposite.

Edit to add I know the reason most people want to burn bosses as fast as they humanly can is to avoid mechanics that can wipe a group. What we need are more engaging mechanics that provide a challenge but won't immediately ruin a run if you can't catch them in time (or burn the boss before it has a chance to use them). Make more fun mechanics that people don't want to skip and don't HAVE to skip, where the mechanic itself won't kill you but not reacting in time after it happens could.