Gilliam and combat team, you missed THIS.

qcell

Update after 8.1.2:

Group DPS is still lower than on live, even with the new sets. This makes all content harder.

Increase or keep group DPS when U35 hits live.

Kusto

qcell wrote: »

Update after 8.1.2:

Group DPS is still lower than on live, even with the new sets. This makes all content harder.

Increase or keep group DPS when U35 hits live.

Not only is the dps still lower, week 3 changes made rotations more complicated for less experienced players which is the opposite what Zos tried to achieve lol.

Troodon80

Agreed. Or decrease the DPS and HPS requirements for the content released in the last 3-4 years which were all tuned for the highest DPS/HPS of the time, this needs to be done at the same time and not three, six, or nine months later when you see a drop-off in players clearing content; by that point they're gone and they're not coming back. There's nothing more demoralising and demotivating than being close to something like Dawnbringer or Planesbreaker and then being set back by a year, along with however many months wasted, because your total group DPS/HPS was reduced by 15-20% and now it's out of reach, that sinking feeling every time there's a patch, "we need to get X achievement in the next two weeks before the patch hits."

Your content teams -- encounters team and combat team -- all need to work together to come up with a balance and not just do massive sweeping changes in a vacuum.

Tannus15

I absolutely agree. i don't care what the group dps numbers do as long as we're still capable of doing what we could do before. if you want to nerf our dps by 20% fine, but also bring the new content in line with this.

PrincessOfThieves

I agree. They should either revert the changes or rebalance all newer vet content to match the new dps and healing levels. Otherwise it makes it much less accessible.

Cyber10

qcell wrote: »

Update after 8.1.2:

Group DPS is still lower than on live, even with the new sets. This makes all content harder.

Increase or keep group DPS when U35 hits live.

This is the major issue for me. DPS going down overall is not good.

[snip]

[edited for bashing]

FantasticFreddie

People have been asking for story mode dungeons for ages. If they made a story mode, designed to be soloed, it would make so many problems go away.
Then you would have fewer first time newbies in the dungeon queue, and less people would get upset at the upper levels farming their crystals

MudcrabAttack

The level of DPS on live servers is probably just about perfect

I joined a pug Vet Sunspire posted in Craglorn and we managed to clear it in about 1.5 hrs. Nobody knew anyone else going into it, the arranger started off by stating, "LF 2 healers, 2 tanks, 6 DPS", and just trusted people when most messaged back that they knew mechanics. Three people didn't really know mechs going into the pug, and that was ok since they were allowed in. It wasn't too hard or too easy, all the atros died right before it was too late, half the tomb people died in their tombs. We wiped a few times on the final boss as some people were learning how to do portals their very first time. In a pug, from a near empty Craglorn. 4 people were thrilled to get through it, a couple said they were surprised.

I had absolutely no freaking idea people could successfully pug VSS, but joined last night out of boredom since there were no other "LF fill" posts for literally anything else.

Two years ago I did the same exact thing, I joined a Craglorn pug for VSS with more or less the same archer build. My percentage of group DPS two years ago was about the same as last night, give or take a %, and we wiped over and over on Lok. The tanks knew what they were doing, sort of, the problem was things just weren't dying fast enough.

After testing the PTS again today, spotting a 20% drop in DPS again, it's easy to picture things returning to how they were two years ago: clears being just out of reach to the average groups as healers can't keep up, and atronachs pile up and wipe everyone, which is a shame.

Styxius

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

I'm one of the players that has done dungeons and trials HM on PTS and provided logs and enabled others to provide feedback, especially on Dreadsail.

The most important point, which seems you overlooked based on the thread is:
- If you lower group DPS, trials will be harder. Inaccessible for people at the DPS threshold.
- If you increase DPS, trials will be easier.

I don't mind if dots are longer or shorter. Please, whatever you do: keep or increase DPS.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

As I talked briefly with QCell on stream with. Zos managed to not only make rotations back to a more complicated state, but you have to work harder in most cases to get the same DPS of week 1. I may be missing something crucial but that's been the results of my testing's so far. Meaning rotations didn't get improved. They didn't get more accessible. I went into week 3 expecting this to have improved, but unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. DPS needs to go up or as he pointed out most groups are just gonna stop and you'll lose a lot more players than you would otherwise.

MidniteOwl1913

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

I'm one of the players that has done dungeons and trials HM on PTS and provided logs and enabled others to provide feedback, especially on Dreadsail.

The most important point, which seems you overlooked based on the thread is:
- If you lower group DPS, trials will be harder. Inaccessible for people at the DPS threshold.
- If you increase DPS, trials will be easier.

I don't mind if dots are longer or shorter. Please, whatever you do: keep or increase DPS.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

But conflicts with ZOS goal #1, reduce "damage bloat" (their words not mine). Despite the fact that they can't even manage to manage balancing PVP and PVE separately (and they have tools for that) they think they will somehow be able to magically be able to nerf the high end and boost the low end of DPS at the same time.

Jaraal

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

I'm one of the players that has done dungeons and trials HM on PTS and provided logs and enabled others to provide feedback, especially on Dreadsail.

The most important point, which seems you overlooked based on the thread is:
- If you lower group DPS, trials will be harder. Inaccessible for people at the DPS threshold.
- If you increase DPS, trials will be easier.

I don't mind if dots are longer or shorter. Please, whatever you do: keep or increase DPS.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

But conflicts with ZOS goal #1, reduce "damage bloat" (their words not mine). Despite the fact that they can't even manage to manage balancing PVP and PVE separately (and they have tools for that) they think they will somehow be able to magically be able to nerf the high end and boost the low end of DPS at the same time.

Except the top players they are trying to nerf will adapt to the changes and maximize available potential, while the “floor” they are trying to raise will simply have their overall damage reduced, even further locking them out of mid to upper level content.

Nerfing their damage =/= making them better players.

BretonMage

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

I'm one of the players that has done dungeons and trials HM on PTS and provided logs and enabled others to provide feedback, especially on Dreadsail.

The most important point, which seems you overlooked based on the thread is:
- If you lower group DPS, trials will be harder. Inaccessible for people at the DPS threshold.
- If you increase DPS, trials will be easier.

I don't mind if dots are longer or shorter. Please, whatever you do: keep or increase DPS.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

But conflicts with ZOS goal #1, reduce "damage bloat" (their words not mine). Despite the fact that they can't even manage to manage balancing PVP and PVE separately (and they have tools for that) they think they will somehow be able to magically be able to nerf the high end and boost the low end of DPS at the same time.

Maybe the person tasked with reducing "damage bloat" is a different person from the one tasked with improving accessibility, and they don't talk to each other.

I don't understand any of this tbh. One would think it was common sense that one can't improve accessibility by reducing the effectiveness of the tools people use.

MidniteOwl1913

BretonMage wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

I'm one of the players that has done dungeons and trials HM on PTS and provided logs and enabled others to provide feedback, especially on Dreadsail.

The most important point, which seems you overlooked based on the thread is:
- If you lower group DPS, trials will be harder. Inaccessible for people at the DPS threshold.
- If you increase DPS, trials will be easier.

I don't mind if dots are longer or shorter. Please, whatever you do: keep or increase DPS.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

But conflicts with ZOS goal #1, reduce "damage bloat" (their words not mine). Despite the fact that they can't even manage to manage balancing PVP and PVE separately (and they have tools for that) they think they will somehow be able to magically be able to nerf the high end and boost the low end of DPS at the same time.

Maybe the person tasked with reducing "damage bloat" is a different person from the one tasked with improving accessibility, and they don't talk to each other.

I don't understand any of this tbh. One would think it was common sense that one can't improve accessibility by reducing the effectiveness of the tools people use.

Yeah, that's a them problem that's about to become a me problem. Not good.

EF321

Raising difficulty of all encounters instead of nerfing every existing character, and only nerfing outlier skills/sets would be so much better solution for everyone, that is if we can even call power level a "problem". People been asking for harder content, people don't want to receive nerfs, people are tired of combat changes every patch.

wolfie1.0.

Marto wrote: »

TPishek wrote: »

Except they haven't chosen between A and B, they have chosen to lower EVERYONE (ceiling dipped a bit and the foundation itself is decimated) and left the content as it is, and that is not acceptable.

No, that's option B.

Keep in mind that this entry level content is still undertuned in the live servers. The floor has to be lowered slightly, although definitely not as much as pts1 did.

The problem with your analysis is that ZOS as far as we officially know chose option c which is an overall damage reduction with no planned adjustments to content difficulty.

Zos has not indicated in any way that the content of the hardest dungeons and trials will change.

Nor do we have any reason to trust that they will be.

ZOS with this update has effectively lowered the ceiling, lowered the floor, but still left the light switches in the same spot... making reaching them out of reach for players that arnt so tall by comparison.

deleted221205-002626

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem with slowly increasing dps is it is creating the wall between pve and pvp.. If theyre slowly increasing the dps and not our HP then you end up with pvp 1shot gank builds and then they have to compensate downward there. IMO they should rebalance everything and then just focus on mechanics, fun sets and abilities. We dont need more dps each expansion just more complex mechanics would do the job!

Necrotech_Master

sinnereso wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem with slowly increasing dps is it is creating the wall between pve and pvp.. If theyre slowly increasing the dps and not our HP then you end up with pvp 1shot gank builds and then they have to compensate downward there. IMO they should rebalance everything and then just focus on mechanics, fun sets and abilities. We dont need more dps each expansion just more complex mechanics would do the job!

i wouldnt necessarily say "complex" mechanics

mechanic being too complicated is almost as bad as not enough dps to pass a dps check, just gets annoying

i would say the mechanic should be "engaging"

boss invulnerability phases are annoying, not engaging for example (not necessarily a complex mechanic, but a lazy one)

group wipe mechanics that require a lot of coordination are annoying to me personally (like that whole downstairs thing with the shards and such in cloudrest, i find this extremely annoying if your not running in a group that understands the mechanic as it will cause wipes on normal)

Sandman929

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

sinnereso wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem with slowly increasing dps is it is creating the wall between pve and pvp.. If theyre slowly increasing the dps and not our HP then you end up with pvp 1shot gank builds and then they have to compensate downward there. IMO they should rebalance everything and then just focus on mechanics, fun sets and abilities. We dont need more dps each expansion just more complex mechanics would do the job!

i wouldnt necessarily say "complex" mechanics

mechanic being too complicated is almost as bad as not enough dps to pass a dps check, just gets annoying

i would say the mechanic should be "engaging"

boss invulnerability phases are annoying, not engaging for example (not necessarily a complex mechanic, but a lazy one)

group wipe mechanics that require a lot of coordination are annoying to me personally (like that whole downstairs thing with the shards and such in cloudrest, i find this extremely annoying if your not running in a group that understands the mechanic as it will cause wipes on normal)

Getting rid of dps checks in content is the way to make content accessible. In this way, even a low dps group can succeed if they follow mechanics, it will just take longer.
But that would mean zos has to do more work.

Styxius

Bumping this because it honestly is the biggest issue that the PvE community posed to the combat team, if they wanted to keep the longer dots, whatever but they need to increase the values or it'll fall off.

Sallymen

Agreed, they shouldn't be changing the core combat, if anything they should adjust item sets. Core/class abilities should be set in stone instead of changing every update.

spacefracking

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

I'm one of the players that has done dungeons and trials HM on PTS and provided logs and enabled others to provide feedback, especially on Dreadsail.

The most important point, which seems you overlooked based on the thread is:
- If you lower group DPS, trials will be harder. Inaccessible for people at the DPS threshold.
- If you increase DPS, trials will be easier.

I don't mind if dots are longer or shorter. Please, whatever you do: keep or increase DPS.

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Idk, vRG HM needs a nerf, but besides that, I think making content so it can't be no-phased is a good thing.

A lot of high end dps players don't even know mechs for a lot of content because they can just no-phase it.

People seem to be ignoring a lot of things like empower getting a big buff, when people are crit-maxxing anyway, light attacks get doubled with this fairly easy source-able buff.

But yeah, vRG HM need a nerf. I agree, once again with that. The more I try the new PTS, the more upset I get at the streamers and cabal of high end folks egging each other on that the sky is falling

It's doing far more damage to the community than these patch notes will do, now that they have been altered. Sticky dots needed a nerf. Ground aoes needed to maintain power because they require effort to position things correctly. Idk. It's not all about whacking a dummy.

I dare these high end players to go in and run some content using off-meta gear, and see if they find that there are whole dimensions to the game they haven't seen from dps creep. Slap on the julianos and mother's sorrow and try some vMHK or something else

FlamingBeard

spacefracking wrote: »

qcell wrote: »

Replying to "Update 35 PTS Combat Feedback & Upcoming Changes".

Idk, vRG HM needs a nerf, but besides that, I think making content so it can't be no-phased is a good thing.

A lot of high end dps players don't even know mechs for a lot of content because they can just no-phase it.

People seem to be ignoring a lot of things like empower getting a big buff, when people are crit-maxxing anyway, light attacks get doubled with this fairly easy source-able buff.

But yeah, vRG HM need a nerf. I agree, once again with that. The more I try the new PTS, the more upset I get at the streamers and cabal of high end folks egging each other on that the sky is falling

It's doing far more damage to the community than these patch notes will do, now that they have been altered. Sticky dots needed a nerf. Ground aoes needed to maintain power because they require effort to position things correctly. Idk. It's not all about whacking a dummy.

I dare these high end players to go in and run some content using off-meta gear, and see if they find that there are whole dimensions to the game they haven't seen from dps creep. Slap on the julianos and mother's sorrow and try some vMHK or something else

Endgamers don't know mechanics? How do you think they were able to reach the point where they're able to DPS through certain mechanics?

Hint: by learning them

Why should endgamers have to use inefficient gear that was purposefully made worse than DLC gear? What point would that prove?

The developers and most other players never had a chance of clearing in the first place which is hilarious since developers themselves created those DPS checks.

Marto

FlamingBeard wrote: »

The developers and most other players never had a chance of clearing in the first place which is hilarious since developers themselves created those DPS checks.

Just because developers created power creep doesn't mean they are happy about it, nor does it mean they consider it good design, nor does it mean they are hypocrites for attempting to fix it.

Developers give us things like this, because we ask for them.

If a new trial comes out and the sets are not a marked improvement over the current meta, player decry it as "pointless".
If a trial HM is finished in week 1 of PTS players decry it's "lazy design" and an example of how "ZOS doesn't care anymore"
If a dungeon boss is nerfed to reduce annoying one-shots, players will go on twitter to complain the dungeon is now a "joke" and a "shadow of its former self"

Sandman929

Marto wrote: »

Developers give us things like this, because we ask for them.

They do when their vision is as constant as a weather vane.

qcell

The lead encounter dev mentioned they won't be changing encounters.


- Asking for trials to be easier is not happening by U35.
- Just asking for the combat DPS to be kept the same or increased.

SeaUnicorn

Rest in pieces SS progs.

Marto

qcell wrote: »

The lead encounter dev mentioned they won't be changing encounters.

That's literally the opposite of what he said in that tweet.

Sandman929

I wonder when they'll address the encounters in PvP where we'll be tickling each other with weak DoTs

IZZEFlameLash

sinnereso wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

I also see no problem with slow increase in DPS each patch. Old hard content gets way too easy? Scale it.
Or leave it. It would actually create the progression ladder without insane difficulty jumps for new players.

The problem with slowly increasing dps is it is creating the wall between pve and pvp.. If theyre slowly increasing the dps and not our HP then you end up with pvp 1shot gank builds and then they have to compensate downward there. IMO they should rebalance everything and then just focus on mechanics, fun sets and abilities. We dont need more dps each expansion just more complex mechanics would do the job!

Disagreed.

Pvp builds have never deviated much in principle. You still wear 1 offense and 1 defense at minimum. You often still see old sets still in circulation because PvP is about burst, not DPS. One shot builds also have existed before. Been a thing almost as long as this game's lifespan.

Xuhora

qcell wrote: »

The lead encounter dev mentioned they won't be changing encounters.


- Asking for trials to be easier is not happening by U35.
- Just asking for the combat DPS to be kept the same or increased.

so this essentially means we will have a period of time between U35 and U36 (what is it, 3 months?) in which a significant portion of the endgame playerbase will be set back by a large margin in their progression?
Ill be honest here, maybe ESO could have recovered easy from that 2 years ago, taking a big L for 3 months and then coming back after they did incremental changes. but today? after so many things that have gone wrong, so little communication and devaluated playerfeedback from PTS for too many cicles i believe this will be a hit ESO cannot recover from.

sure a steady flow of new players will allways be there, but the experienced raiding community will be in shambles and said new players will more likely leave again after reaching a point where they would consider doing trials because they realize that there is no one to do it with.

here is to hoping that they will realize sooner rather than later (and i mean soon as in days, not months) that they need to do something and loose their stubbornness and stop clinging on to their changes.