Teach/Train the Lower Skilled Players

Imnotsurewho · July 2022

I'd like to start off by saying I appreciate all the work the devs have put into this game. I understand its much more difficult to create/design something than it is to critique it. I also understand that when in the creative process, you sometimes miss the mark for whatever reason and criticism is hard to take, even if made in the best way. My encouragement to all on the development team is to take all of the suggestions from the players with an ocean of salt, step back, breath in deep, exhale slowly, and remember that its not personal. It's just a game, and the sensible players with sensible criticism know that. Now let's make it better together.

That being said I'd like to talk about your objective with these changes:

"The main focuses in Update 35 are twofold: improving accessibility to the game’s combat by increasing the duration of outgoing ability effects (such as damage over time, buffs, and debuffs) and a continuation of the attempt to quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end."

If improving accessibility to the game's combat is truly the goal, I can think of a very effective way to do that straight away: educate your players better.

This game in all its glory, relies very heavily on out-of-game resources for helping to train up players, most of it run by the [endgame] community. While there are tutorials, I think they could be expanded and developed in a way that players must prove they understand each mechanic before moving on to another. A player could, in theory, just light attack their way through the tutorial not reading any of it, just wanting to get to "the real game". Fine. Their prerogative. Play as you like and all that. (This actually just made me realize some players may have very little interest in improving in the combat so any attempts to lift them up would have diminishing returns)

But what about something optional post-tutorial that could help players improve if they wished to? Something like an instanced solo arena similar to Maelstrom or what have you that would help players understand how they're going wrong and how to fix it. This could very easily apply to PvP, PvE or even overland content. There are so many mechanics in the game and players who have been playing for a while take for granted just how much stuff is going on at any one time.

I have two friends who've joined ESO in the past month or two. Explaining the game to them is...interesting. It's made me realize just how little the game explains. Again, fine. If that's your design decision I understand to a point, but I'm going to question that hard. I heard from another player on the forums that on the live stream, training was mentioned multiple times and it was rejected multiple times. If in fact you don't want to expand the training of these lower skilled players, can you at least explain why?

I don't believe that even the term "lower skilled player" is a label that is forever. Its just a state of being that can easily be changed with experience, understanding of mechanics, and training. So yes, there is that power delta in the game. Yes, you could introduce item sets that are largely cheese and quick-fix shortcuts to actual mastery. But doing so will be like entering in a cheat code in a game 20 years ago: initially its fun because you've gained power for doing nothing, but over time it gets boring, the challenge fades, and gameplay loses its luster.

If I was being cynical, I'd say the devs don't want to have to pay whatever costs would be involved with training these newer/lower skilled players as I'm sure it would cost many hours of work on top of their already busy workload to develop meaningful training materials in-game. But you have to remember, that much of this educating of the player has been "outsourced" to the free labor of the endgame community and content creators. I wouldn't like to see how the game goes if these players get alienated to the point that they leave and their knowledge goes with them.

PrincessOfThieves · July 2022

I also think that they shouldn't compare solo questers to endgame raiders when trying to figure out what average dps should be. There are thousands of players who play ESO for the story and aren't interested in challenges.
In my opinion, when they balance changes, they should look at the demographic that's interested in group content and balance around them. Maybe that would make the endgame a bit easy for the best of the best, but on the other hand, with more people participating they would have a more competitive score pushing scene.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Any content or achivment have to be possible to pass in your favorite builds.

Is it 12 wervolfs with LA spam, 12 HA players or just 12 players who just press correct skills.

If for some reason only 1 possible solution is represented - than it looks like some one do just a too comfortable situation for themselves for all this years.

ectoplasmicninja · July 2022

I just posted about this in another thread, but it fits here.

I too think they should invest in teaching players how to play. Give the game an extended or advanced tutorial where weaving is explained, animation cancelling is touched on, maybe introduce a combat metronome for the tutorial that will help players understand the rhythm they're aiming for. Explain the importance of enchantments and the ult gen of light attacks. If you hand hold a little bit in the beginning, people will grasp more of the basics and be in a better position to understand the complexity later on.

As it is, we're relying on guildmates and friends to explain a lot of the mechanics of combat, and some things (like the different types of damage and how penetration and resistance work) are never explained anywhere. Some people will never join a guild. Those people shouldn't be isolated from knowledge simply because there's no simple built-in way to acquire it. Teach a man to fish, you know?

I sucked in the beginning. Badly. I came from the singleplayer ES series and played in first person for ages. I didn't use my back bar for a year. You know what it's like to one-bar heal a trial in first person? I was a full-time poison spreader in Sanctum Ophidia. My whole group instaquit on the first boss of my very first dungeon ever (ICP). My early group content experience was gnarly. Thankfully I had guildmates who were much more skilled than me and who explained all the nuts and bolts that I was missing and could never possibly have known, and now I suck much less. But I would probably have quit in frustration if people hadn't shown me the way. Yes, the community is important (so, so important) but I really think the game shouldn't rely so heavily on the idea that we'll learn from external sources, because that's not within the game's power to control or ensure that it actually happens.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Skipping content is not some thing players need to learn )

You talk to much about "wiwing" - and already skip HA part

Imnotsurewho · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Skipping content is not some thing players need to learn )

No one is advocating for that.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Imnotsurewho wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Skipping content is not some thing players need to learn )

No one is advocating for that.

Good than ))) But i write it on topic before my

About main topic - i have own vision on it, so do not read it to much )

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

I will say, I have helped teach a great deal of players a litany of things. Tank strats, specific fight mechanics, etc. But I have always found it surprising how many long-term players, even those with pretty high talent levels, either did not understand how to weave, or did so incorrectly.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Any content or achivment have to be possible to pass in your favorite builds.

Going to firmly disagree here. There's a logical balance to everything. I am all for lowering power creep, making the "gap" smaller, teaching/educating players, bringing people up, but I do not, for even a single second, support someone light attack spamming with a bow because it's their "favorite build" and they want to be Legolas being capable of acquiring a trifecta trial achievement in the vacuum of performance vs reward. Not even remotely. That is absurd.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I will say, I have helped teach a great deal of players a litany of things. Tank strats, specific fight mechanics, etc. But I have always found it surprising how many long-term players, even those with pretty high talent levels, either did not understand how to weave, or did so incorrectly.

"Elit" players make to much that be that way.

When you come to player and say him - "Ratatue - wiwing - ratata lalala halala tratata ... "

If you just say - put LA between skills - they have no problem.

But with out - "Ratatue - wiwing - ratata lalala halala tratata ... " - they are no to elit

A lott of people do not like such game play. They are not interested in it - they can be exp in all other parts they are interested in.

So it is not looking strange for me. You can be the best player of the world - but it do not show that you need to do thingth you are not interested in.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I will say, I have helped teach a great deal of players a litany of things. Tank strats, specific fight mechanics, etc. But I have always found it surprising how many long-term players, even those with pretty high talent levels, either did not understand how to weave, or did so incorrectly.

"Elit" players make to much that be that way.

When you come to player and say him - "Ratatue - wiwing - ratata lalala halala tratata ... "

If you just say - put LA between skills - they have no problem.

But with out - "Ratatue - wiwing - ratata lalala halala tratata ... " - they are no to elit

A lott of people do not like such game play. They are not interested in it - they can be exp in all other parts they are interested in.

So it is not looking strange for me. You can be the best player of the world - but it do not show that you need to thingth you are not interested in.

I am not attempting to poke fun, but I legitimately understood about 50% of that. Could you word that a bit more clearly please?

Sandman929 · July 2022

I would think ZoS could make a solo arena that instructs for all basic points of group content damage, healing, and tanking.
It could 3 portals, take over the players bars with a generic setup and teach some basics of each role, then give rewards for completing training exercises in all roles based on how well the player meets certain metrics or rotations.
They could take the time spent making broken sets and creating bad plans to revise combat yet again and simply teach combat effectively.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

I will say, I have helped teach a great deal of players a litany of things. Tank strats, specific fight mechanics, etc. But I have always found it surprising how many long-term players, even those with pretty high talent levels, either did not understand how to weave, or did so incorrectly.

"Elit" players make to much that be that way.

When you come to player and say him - "Ratatue - wiwing - ratata lalala halala tratata ... "

If you just say - put LA between skills - they have no problem.

But with out - "Ratatue - wiwing - ratata lalala halala tratata ... " - they are no to elit

A lott of people do not like such game play. They are not interested in it - they can be exp in all other parts they are interested in.

So it is not looking strange for me. You can be the best player of the world - but it do not show that you need to thingth you are not interested in.

I am not attempting to poke fun, but I legitimately understood about 50% of that. Could you word that a bit more clearly please?

The "self proclaimed elit players" in their text have about 90 % useless information.
Other 10% is not hard to do.

Thats why a lott of players are not interested to play with them.

Too "elit"

To exp player from another game to learn do DPS may be will take 1-2 days.

You will not look "elit" to him - if it will be that easy.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Sandman929 wrote: »

I would think ZoS could make a solo arena that instructs for all basic points of group content damage, healing, and tanking.
It could 3 portals, take over the players bars with a generic setup and teach some basics of each role, then give rewards for completing training exercises in all roles based on how well the player meets certain metrics or rotations.
They could take the time spent making broken sets and creating bad plans to revise combat yet again and simply teach combat effectively.

If player want to learn some thing he can go solo a dunguan. It is no need ZOS do some thing - you can even take companion with you now.

The same time - game already have 2 solo arenas and n/vAS

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

The "self proclaimed elit players" in their text have about 90 % useless information.
Other 10% is not hard to do.

Thats why a lott of players are not interested to play with them.

Too "elit"

I mean, I agree with that to a point. I think I could make a list of end-game players who just love to hear themselves talk, make "hot take" points that are rooted in utter stupidity and just bring attention because they are "controversial", and generally don't know what the hell they're talking about or bring any value to serious discussion on matters of balance or long-term game health. There's a few I know who will leave a discord if they stop being deified by the "masses". It's gross, honestly. But most of us are absolutely not that way.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

The "self proclaimed elit players" in their text have about 90 % useless information.
Other 10% is not hard to do.

Thats why a lott of players are not interested to play with them.

Too "elit"

I mean, I agree with that to a point. I think I could make a list of end-game players who just love to hear themselves talk, make "hot take" points that are rooted in utter stupidity and just bring attention because they are "controversial", and generally don't know what the hell they're talking about or bring any value to serious discussion on matters of balance or long-term game health. There's a few I know who will leave a discord if they stop being deified by the "masses". It's gross, honestly. But most of us are absolutely not that way.

Just as example - Elden Ring like games - are not easy - if player pass it naked is it concidered skilled ?

Here if you do the same you get nerfs ))) So you understand what i am talking about ? )))

So you can try to look PadeVoo chanel and compare it to some others meta players here.

What can they teach ? All they can is DPS.

And skip.

Or are dead 24*7 full stream but well respected here.

Sandman929 · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I would think ZoS could make a solo arena that instructs for all basic points of group content damage, healing, and tanking.
It could 3 portals, take over the players bars with a generic setup and teach some basics of each role, then give rewards for completing training exercises in all roles based on how well the player meets certain metrics or rotations.
They could take the time spent making broken sets and creating bad plans to revise combat yet again and simply teach combat effectively.

If player want to learn some thing he can go solo a dunguan. It is no need ZOS do some thing - you can even take companion with you now.

The same time - game already have 2 solo arenas and n/vAS

Clearly the instructions and tools aren't sufficient right now or we wouldn't be lowering ceilings and raising floors every few months.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Sandman929 wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

I would think ZoS could make a solo arena that instructs for all basic points of group content damage, healing, and tanking.
It could 3 portals, take over the players bars with a generic setup and teach some basics of each role, then give rewards for completing training exercises in all roles based on how well the player meets certain metrics or rotations.
They could take the time spent making broken sets and creating bad plans to revise combat yet again and simply teach combat effectively.

If player want to learn some thing he can go solo a dunguan. It is no need ZOS do some thing - you can even take companion with you now.

The same time - game already have 2 solo arenas and n/vAS

Clearly the instructions and tools aren't sufficient right now or we wouldn't be lowering ceilings and raising floors every few months.

And i just wait whyle i will not get nerf each single update ))) And all this game changing madness stops. And what will game look like - will it be interesting to play or not.

Cyber10 · July 2022

Imnotsurewho wrote: »

I'd like to start off by saying I appreciate all the work the devs have put into this game. I understand its much more difficult to create/design something than it is to critique it. I also understand that when in the creative process, you sometimes miss the mark for whatever reason and criticism is hard to take, even if made in the best way. My encouragement to all on the development team is to take all of the suggestions from the players with an ocean of salt, step back, breath in deep, exhale slowly, and remember that its not personal. It's just a game, and the sensible players with sensible criticism know that. Now let's make it better together.

That being said I'd like to talk about your objective with these changes:

"The main focuses in Update 35 are twofold: improving accessibility to the game’s combat by increasing the duration of outgoing ability effects (such as damage over time, buffs, and debuffs) and a continuation of the attempt to quell some of the obscene damage production at the high end."

If improving accessibility to the game's combat is truly the goal, I can think of a very effective way to do that straight away: educate your players better.

This game in all its glory, relies very heavily on out-of-game resources for helping to train up players, most of it run by the [endgame] community. While there are tutorials, I think they could be expanded and developed in a way that players must prove they understand each mechanic before moving on to another. A player could, in theory, just light attack their way through the tutorial not reading any of it, just wanting to get to "the real game". Fine. Their prerogative. Play as you like and all that. (This actually just made me realize some players may have very little interest in improving in the combat so any attempts to lift them up would have diminishing returns)

But what about something optional post-tutorial that could help players improve if they wished to? Something like an instanced solo arena similar to Maelstrom or what have you that would help players understand how they're going wrong and how to fix it. This could very easily apply to PvP, PvE or even overland content. There are so many mechanics in the game and players who have been playing for a while take for granted just how much stuff is going on at any one time.

I have two friends who've joined ESO in the past month or two. Explaining the game to them is...interesting. It's made me realize just how little the game explains. Again, fine. If that's your design decision I understand to a point, but I'm going to question that hard. I heard from another player on the forums that on the live stream, training was mentioned multiple times and it was rejected multiple times. If in fact you don't want to expand the training of these lower skilled players, can you at least explain why?

I don't believe that even the term "lower skilled player" is a label that is forever. Its just a state of being that can easily be changed with experience, understanding of mechanics, and training. So yes, there is that power delta in the game. Yes, you could introduce item sets that are largely cheese and quick-fix shortcuts to actual mastery. But doing so will be like entering in a cheat code in a game 20 years ago: initially its fun because you've gained power for doing nothing, but over time it gets boring, the challenge fades, and gameplay loses its luster.

If I was being cynical, I'd say the devs don't want to have to pay whatever costs would be involved with training these newer/lower skilled players as I'm sure it would cost many hours of work on top of their already busy workload to develop meaningful training materials in-game. But you have to remember, that much of this educating of the player has been "outsourced" to the free labor of the endgame community and content creators. I wouldn't like to see how the game goes if these players get alienated to the point that they leave and their knowledge goes with them.

This is a fantastic idea. My friends and I also talked about something like this last night. Instead of completely changing combat and damage to maybe (a big maybe) help new players make a complete area for new players to go and learn. If it is done correctly it could essentially walk new players through several aspects, like questing, reading the map, how to get sets and optimize the sets, how to make gold and how vendors work, crafting and so on. This would be a nice addition that does not disrupt the entire established game combat and DPS.

Unless ZOS has some other motive in play this seems like an odd solution for an 8 year old game. The point is there is much better ways to help nee players than what the have in the works. If new players do not understand combat and the game in general these combat changes will not help them at all.

mpicklesster · July 2022

Imnotsurewho wrote: »

I'd like to start off by saying I appreciate all the work the devs have put into this game. I understand its much more difficult to create/design something than it is to critique it. I also understand that when in the creative process, you sometimes miss the mark for whatever reason and criticism is hard to take, even if made in the best way. My encouragement to all on the development team is to take all of the suggestions from the players with an ocean of salt, step back, breath in deep, exhale slowly, and remember that its not personal. It's just a game, and the sensible players with sensible criticism know that. Now let's make it better together.

That's some solid diplomacy. While I firmly believe ZOS needs some very tough love on this PTS, I'm still glad you approached them with empathy first. (We need more of that.) Anybody who's ever had to work with the public and be on the receiving end of massive, anonymous criticism knows that it's hard to take valid criticism when it's delivered with animosity. So, if ZOS doesn't listen to you after a kind opening like this, then that speaks volumes about them.

Imnotsurewho wrote: »

But you have to remember, that much of this educating of the player has been "outsourced" to the free labor of the endgame community and content creators.

And, if ZOS still has no interest in making more detailed in-game tutorials, they could outsource the creation of them to one of the many content creators on YouTube or elsewhere. There are plenty of beginner-friendly content creators that could design and write the tutorials for ZOS. Sure, this would mean ZOS would have to put 1 more person on their payroll, but the long-term benefits would likely outweigh the cost. The talent is there, ZOS just needs to leverage it.

Ardriel · July 2022

Why not introduce "Undaunted Tutorial Quests"? The first one at level 10, when you are ready for the dungeon finder with basics about the different roles in the group. A second quest at level 50, with more advanced combat techniques and tutorials for each role, and a final test for each role tutorial. Those who do not pass the test for their role cannot queue for veteran dungeons.

OolongSnakeTea · July 2022

I'll harp this all day:

Go take a look at the Protogames from Wildstar.

They had a teaching-dungeon. It forced you to learn the mechanics, and the veteran version also taught you more. It was fun, whimsy, and actually effective in its education.

Video Example:

https://youtu.be/Ed2zqZFBoqw

xaraan · July 2022

They should definitely be working more to teach players the game. The biggest issue is just a simple lack of knowledge. It's why so many vets hate pugging with the dungeon finder and why supports don't like using it if they can avoid it. It's a crapshoot when someone shows up at a world boss or event as to whether they will be completely useless or at least maybe as useful as a companion (which is not saying much). And it's the main reason why ideas like trial finder is a bad one. Players can go through so much of the game no needing to know what they are doing, that many of them don't bother learning more when they should.

I've seen great ideas here and there on the forums already about NPCs that can be used to help with more advanced training. I think they could even go a step farther and have dungeon or trial tutorials lead by "undaunted" members, where you can go through and see the trial using illusion magic from NPC mages to prepare you, letting you move through mechanics and strategies in slow motion to learn what to watch out for and how best to maneuver. Having something like that where players might have to complete the training (or just do the trial) before being able to queue for a trial finder might help with better prepared players looking for groups if they added in that feature. Could even do something similar for new vet dungeons that come out, since those are often more mechanically intensive than OG dungeons (and most players avoid trying to pug for those more often than the base game dungeons b/c that's where you run into the most problems with unprepared players).

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

OolongSnakeTea wrote: »

I'll harp this all day:

Go take a look at the Protogames from Wildstar.

They had a teaching-dungeon. It forced you to learn the mechanics, and the veteran version also taught you more. It was fun, whimsy, and actually effective in its education.

Video Example:

xaraan wrote: »

They should definitely be working more to teach players the game.

Looks like a game i will not even try to play ))) It looks like a game for 5 years players. If i even would be 7 years old I would not even play it - i better play some L2 ))) because there are so beauterfull dark elfs )

You speak like some eletist - because if think logickally:

1) - will such thing really help ? Nope
2) - You think that you are to much better from others that they really need this ? )))

And if such thing can be helpfull for you than just ... oh my god ... .

Imnotsurewho · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

You speak like some eletist - because if think logickally:

1) - will such thing really help ? Nope
2) - You think that you are to much better from others that they really need this ? )))

And if such thing can be helpfull for you than just ... oh my god ... .

So the massive irony here is that the entire nature of this post is that its meant to help the lower skilled/newer players. I want to help them get better at this game for their sake and for the sake of the overall health of the game. When there's more people skilled to lead and participate in trials, that's healthy. When there's more PvP players around at similar skill levels, that's healthy as it'll promote good competition.

None of us here are speaking like elitists. In fact, as I just pointed out, its the opposite of that. If we were elitist then we wouldn't care if the power gap widens and we would just let this patch go through with no comments.

To your points:

1. Saying "nope" isn't a valid form of evidence. Look at the evidence on this thread and others (code's in particular) that have well reasoned and carefully crafted arguments with evidence.

2. I don't think any of us think we're that much better than others. I think this feature sounds like something I also would need for certain hard mode dungeons with my mid-tier group. We clear certain mechanics for hard modes, but others, we just don't know where we're going wrong and have to consult with a more experienced PvE guild member who knows it.

And to your final point if such a thing can be helpful to me: well that's ironically elitist of you to say.

So I think either you need to refine your opinions or you're baiting. Neither look good.

mmtaniac · July 2022

Many players not learning they just play if games are not play by itself they leave. I have that one friend dude trying to play in Warframe there was times before new parkour system, he can't climb the wall in tutorial he leave game, never return. He don't like to read because its waste of time for him , this is how many people operates.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

Imnotsurewho wrote: »

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

You speak like some eletist - because if think logickally:

1) - will such thing really help ? Nope
2) - You think that you are to much better from others that they really need this ? )))

And if such thing can be helpfull for you than just ... oh my god ... .

So the massive irony here is that the entire nature of this post is that its meant to help the lower skilled/newer players. I want to help them get better at this game for their sake and for the sake of the overall health of the game. When there's more people skilled to lead and participate in trials, that's healthy. When there's more PvP players around at similar skill levels, that's healthy as it'll promote good competition.

None of us here are speaking like elitists. In fact, as I just pointed out, its the opposite of that. If we were elitist then we wouldn't care if the power gap widens and we would just let this patch go through with no comments.

To your points:

1. Saying "nope" isn't a valid form of evidence. Look at the evidence on this thread and others (code's in particular) that have well reasoned and carefully crafted arguments with evidence.

2. I don't think any of us think we're that much better than others. I think this feature sounds like something I also would need for certain hard mode dungeons with my mid-tier group. We clear certain mechanics for hard modes, but others, we just don't know where we're going wrong and have to consult with a more experienced PvE guild member who knows it.

And to your final point if such a thing can be helpful to me: well that's ironically elitist of you to say.

So I think either you need to refine your opinions or you're baiting. Neither look good.

The game is for 18+ players. I do not think that for all that time they will not play some other games. Mechanics are the same in all games. So 18+ player will already play some thing for all that time - and will now thingth like:
Press skill, do not stand in red.

In current game usage of /block/LA/HA is already shown from the begining quests.

The same time overland and quests mobs/bosses hall all such mechanics.

So i even now do not understand how will it help ?

The thing that may be will be helpfull is show how agro skill works here, I really see one streamer from wow on twitch who try do agro with LA in teso, but not all players will play tanks the same time.

So to train people - is much better gather together and go somewhere as on my opinion with players who are interested in it.

Imnotsurewho · July 2022

JustAGoodPlayer wrote: »

So to train people - is much better gather together and go somewhere as on my opinion with players who are interested in it.

Yes, that's my point! The developers are relying too much on the knowledge of their players being passed on to each other, whether in-game or outside (Youtube, Twitch, Alcast's site, Nefas' site, etc.).

To an extent this is good, because it promotes socialization within the game. People will be incentivized to ask questions and reach out to other people for answers. But its the amount of unexplained mechanics in the game that do this, that's the problem.

And yes, I know the tutorial explains LA, HA, dodge rolling, etc. But you'd be surprised how long people can play this game, and still not know something fundamental about it.

If the more experienced players leave, then they're not around to pass on knowledge to the less skilled/newer players so they don't learn. Those less skilled/newer players could ,in theory, learn themselves, but its more likely that they'll just get frustrated and quit the game, creating a downward spiral of the player base.

This is a commonly known principle in game design where you need to make sure the content you're making isn't too easy and not too hard so the player can find that "Flow" of progression. In the case I described in the paragraph above, the difficulty would be too high for the newer players with them having to overcome large amounts of anxiety in order to proceed. Some people can cope with this (Dark Souls players, etc.). But if the devs are trying to increase accessibility, these aren't the players that will need help.

BlueRaven · July 2022

There are many problems with implementing a “training” quest (or whatever) in eso.

When do you give it?
You can’t give it to new players. What are they weaving? Molten armor and LA’s? Surprise attacks and LA’s?

Is it mandatory?
Do I have to do it? What if a player does not want to? Can they still do dungeons if they don’t want to do it? If it’s optional, and the majority of players skip it, was it wasted development money?
If it’s not optional, and a player can’t do weaving, then what? Are they then excluded from content? What if they can but don’t like it, did zos just create an angry customer who may have had no internet in dungeons in the first place?

What if they change combat substantially?
Combat changes in the game all the time. Imagine all of the class abilities in U36 stayed the same. AND all the armor etc. what if the big combat change was the elimination of light attacks all together. So weaving is completely gone. Would a training quest be adaptable to this heavy of a change? Would it be even needed?

Imnotsurewho · July 2022

BlueRaven wrote: »

There are many problems with implementing a “training” quest (or whatever) in eso.

When do you give it?
You can’t give it to new players. What are they weaving? Molten armor and LA’s? Surprise attacks and LA’s?

Is it mandatory?
Do I have to do it? What if a player does not want to? Can they still do dungeons if they don’t want to do it? If it’s optional, and the majority of players skip it, was it wasted development money?
If it’s not optional, and a player can’t do weaving, then what? Are they then excluded from content? What if they can but don’t like it, did zos just create an angry customer who may have had no internet in dungeons in the first place?

What if they change combat substantially?
Combat changes in the game all the time. Imagine all of the class abilities in U36 stayed the same. AND all the armor etc. what if the big combat change was the elimination of light attacks all together. So weaving is completely gone. Would a training quest be adaptable to this heavy of a change? Would it be even needed?

I actually agree with you 100% on all of that. These are definitely questions and problems that would need to be tackled to make it the best it could be. But I at least wanted to point the devs in this direction instead of the current one they're considering for this patch. Cart before the horse and all that.

But just some preliminary thoughts to your questions:

1. I'd say give the tutorial after level 50. I could see an argument for earlier even, but this way they'd have skills unlocked, bar swapping, and some general level of experience with the rest of the game. It would be a good chance to notice some visual effects they might've missed before (ex: the swirlies on the feet meaning cc immunity is suuuuuper important for PvP and often not noticed by beginning players)

2. I'd definitely say it shouldn't be mandatory, but it needs to be there in an obvious way for players that want to improve. In the same way that vMA or vVH aren't mandatory, but incredibly useful for skill development in the game. When I look back at my ESO progression, clearing these and learning how to do them was when I really started to get better at the game. There was no one else to blame; just me playing mechanics. So it forced me to get better. Not everyone wants to get better at this game. They're well within their right to play it as a single player game, social game, RP game, crafting simulator, guild trading simulator, etc.

3. I was thinking about this as well the other day. The sheer amount of combat changes that happen in this game ironically keep contributing to the power gap, because the less skilled/newer players aren't going to keep up with these changes near as much as the experienced players who are so invested in the game they bother to read the patch notes and post of the PTS forums, etc. So this is a good question. I don't have any valid answer for you other than perhaps because of the age of the game, the combat changes should slow down and be made in smaller increments rather than some of the wild nerfs we're seeing to skills like Crystal Weapon and such.

JustAGoodPlayer · July 2022

They always have the same options that we have before )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXZ-vdF0e6Q

The most helpfull knowledje are databases. What thingth exist and where to find it. Leads / sets / fashion / items for housing and etc.

But i do not think that all that information dissapear with end of this patch ?

And yes - may be with devs nerf HA each patch they will have not ))) May be it will not even exist some PTS.