Advanced Species Passive

Mr_Stach · July 2022

prof_doom wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Whether you agree with the premise of Penetration being worse in organized groups or not, the change of Damage to Penetration is a Nerf in PvE, especially if you're running light armor. In PvP it's a big different because Penetration is more important against so many people running heavy armor.

This 1 rework is making the rest of the general nerfs worse for Warden.

It's probably still a nerf in PVP. People were getting enough penetration just fine with advanced species being damage boost.

I agree, I think the damage boost is much more important. There are some pvp circles that see this change as a buff and try to say just run nirn. But that does not make up for the damage lost here

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

While I'm not even sure I agree with your premise about penetration getting worse in organized groups (just change your group composition to provide different bonuses), you're still wrong about this being the only passive that provides penetration. Take a look at Necromancer's Dismember passive and Nightblade's Master Assassin passive.

@the1andonlyskwex Scale matters.

Necro Passive: 1,500
Warden Passive: 990 per ability slotted

Working under the assumption that the Warden is slotting bear, shalks and bugs at minimum on the front bar, that means Wardens get as value of 2,970, basically double the pen Necros receive. You say things like "change group composition", but if the group is in medium armor and includes classes that aren't Necros or Wardens, that gets real stupid real fast. Let's look at what is generally accepted as the "meta" pen setup for groups;

Crimson: 3541
Tremor = 2600
Minor = 2974
Major = 5948
Crusher = 2100
CP: 700
Total: 17,863

This does not account for the fact that most DPS are wearing one light, either. This leaves you with 337 missing Penetration. Necros end up overpenning by 1,163. However, some of that pen will be useful, as uptimes aren't perfect, and crusher can be particularly wonky and inefficient in fights with more than one target. But if we work under the assumption the group is organized, efficient and know how to place AoEs, Necros are overpenning by a fair bit.

Wardens on the other hand would be overpenning by 2,633. That exceeds both the combined values of Crusher and the missing penetration to reach cap. That's with only three skills. Were a Warden to run more, the excess and thus wasted stat gets progressively worse. Even in full medium this passive is abysmal and serves no real purpose in any form of organized content. Every single one of these armor debuffs can easily be applied even in 4-man content with minimal stress.

Penetration in general as a class passive is a completely garbage idea, honestly, and should be sent to the woodchipper.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Now, on the other hand, while it's true Nightblades and Cros have pen passives, they also have a multitude of other useful DPS passives.

Nightblade:
438 Weapon Crit per NB ability slotted
10% Crit Damage
Minor Savagery
20 Ultimate on potion

Necromancer:
Scaling crit execute passive
DoT damage by 10%
Max health (makes running parse food easier)
10 ultimate when corpse interacting (16s CD)

Warden:
Magic/Frost damage by 10%
10% crit damage on chilled
4 ultimate on AC ability (8s CD)

Aaaaaaand that's it.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Let me also point out, since they're "reworking" Dive and I use that word extremely loosely, on Live right now, with the Warden passive 2% as well as the frost passive 10%, the mag birds, the maximum tooltip value we can achieve from our class spammables, is still over 100 damage lower than Silver Shards, does not cleave, and offers no meaningful value unless you're far away from the target.

Warden is in a very, very bad place. They didn't need these nerfs.

prof_doom · July 2022

Honestly, the only reason Wardens see any playtime in endgame content right now is for the Brittle uptimes.
If the nerfs go through to live next patch, I doubt anyone will still think the Brittle is worth it.
Or everyone will just swap to necro for Brittle.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Let me also point out, since they're "reworking" Dive and I use that word extremely loosely, on Live right now, with the Warden passive 2% as well as the frost passive 10%, the mag birds, the maximum tooltip value we can achieve from our class spammables, is still over 100 damage lower than Silver Shards, does not cleave, and offers no meaningful value unless you're far away from the target.

Warden is in a very, very bad place. They didn't need these nerfs.

I mean Birds just by itself is laughable just comparing it to the other thing with scaling weapon damage Molten whip:

Whenever you activate a different Ardent Flame ability, you gain a stack of Seething Fury, increasing the damage of your next Molten Whip by 20% and your Weapon and Spell Damage by 100 for 10 seconds. This effect stacks up to 3 times. oh and Whip no longer spends seething fury so you can just keep this up forever now.

300 weapon and spell Damage + 60% Damage to Whip for just doing it's thing.
vs.
100 Weapon and Spell Damage + an extra 100 if the target is off-balance, but the off-balance has a limited window and 17 sec cd.

Not saying I just want birds to be just Molten Whip but with feathers, but c'mon. How can they make Molten Whip like this then think the Birds change is good in any sense.

Also I really hate the Off-Balance aspect, I hate that we have to use it to activate the things that other classes just get to do.

Birds Rant Over.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

prof_doom wrote: »

Honestly, the only reason Wardens see any playtime in endgame content right now is for the Brittle uptimes.
If the nerfs go through to live next patch, I doubt anyone will still think the Brittle is worth it.
Or everyone will just swap to necro for Brittle.

I parse pretty well on Warden, as do a few friends. They're not a bad DPS right now by any means. They hover in that ~3rd place spot. Next patch if this goes live? Basement and it's not even close.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

While I'm not even sure I agree with your premise about penetration getting worse in organized groups (just change your group composition to provide different bonuses), you're still wrong about this being the only passive that provides penetration. Take a look at Necromancer's Dismember passive and Nightblade's Master Assassin passive.

@the1andonlyskwex Scale matters.

Necro Passive: 1,500
Warden Passive: 990 per ability slotted

Working under the assumption that the Warden is slotting bear, shalks and bugs at minimum on the front bar, that means Wardens get as value of 2,970, basically double the pen Necros receive. You say things like "change group composition", but if the group is in medium armor and includes classes that aren't Necros or Wardens, that gets real stupid real fast. Let's look at what is generally accepted as the "meta" pen setup for groups;

Crimson: 3541
Tremor = 2600
Minor = 2974
Major = 5948
Crusher = 2100
CP: 700
Total: 17,863

This does not account for the fact that most DPS are wearing one light, either. This leaves you with 337 missing Penetration. Necros end up overpenning by 1,163. However, some of that pen will be useful, as uptimes aren't perfect, and crusher can be particularly wonky and inefficient in fights with more than one target. But if we work under the assumption the group is organized, efficient and know how to place AoEs, Necros are overpenning by a fair bit.

Wardens on the other hand would be overpenning by 2,633. That exceeds both the combined values of Crusher and the missing penetration to reach cap. That's with only three skills. Were a Warden to run more, the excess and thus wasted stat gets progressively worse. Even in full medium this passive is abysmal and serves no real purpose in any form of organized content. Every single one of these armor debuffs can easily be applied even in 4-man content with minimal stress.

Penetration in general as a class passive is a completely garbage idea, honestly, and should be sent to the woodchipper.

Way to conveniently ignore NB's 2974 pen.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Way to conveniently ignore NB's 2974 pen.

I didn't ignore it, I compared the valid Necro passive because it is always active, much like the Warden passive. NB has a requirement. You can't flank on every boss.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Way to conveniently ignore NB's 2974 pen.

I didn't ignore it, I compared the valid Necro passive because it is always active, much like the Warden passive. NB has a requirement. You can't flank on every boss.

Just 90% of them...

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Way to conveniently ignore NB's 2974 pen.

I didn't ignore it, I compared the valid Necro passive because it is always active, much like the Warden passive. NB has a requirement. You can't flank on every boss.

Just 90% of them...

Still a factor, though. But yes, the NB passive is cheeks. Every pen passive is cheeks. I said that. You're just using NB as a strawman. NB and Necro both have exceedingly better DPS passives outside of those pen passives.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Way to conveniently ignore NB's 2974 pen.

I didn't ignore it, I compared the valid Necro passive because it is always active, much like the Warden passive. NB has a requirement. You can't flank on every boss.

Just 90% of them...

Still a factor, though. But yes, the NB passive is cheeks. Every pen passive is cheeks. I said that. You're just using NB as a strawman. NB and Necro both have exceedingly better DPS passives outside of those pen passives.

So? All I did was respond to your false claim about the new Advanced Species being the only passive that gets worse in organized groups by pointing out that other classes have penetration passives too.

If anything, your bringing other passives into the discussion is the strawman here.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So? All I did was respond to your false claim about the new Advanced Species being the only passive that gets worse in organized groups by pointing out that other classes have penetration passives too.

If anything, your bringing other passives into the discussion is the strawman here.

Actually, what I said was absolutely correct. Given meta setups, Necro and Nightblade pen passives are statically bad. They can't improve, and they can't get worse. Warden passive only gets worse the more class skills you use. You're actively punished for using class skills in organized groups. How does that apply to Necros and NBs? In fact, both classes get crit for slotting their class skills.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So? All I did was respond to your false claim about the new Advanced Species being the only passive that gets worse in organized groups by pointing out that other classes have penetration passives too.

If anything, your bringing other passives into the discussion is the strawman here.

Actually, what I said was absolutely correct. Given meta setups, Necro and Nightblade pen passives are statically bad. They can't improve, and they can't get worse. Warden passive only gets worse the more class skills you use. You're actively punished for using class skills in organized groups. How does that apply to Necros and NBs? In fact, both classes get crit for slotting their class skills.

Everyone in this thread knows that's not what you meant. No organized group is telling you you have to slot 5 Animal Companions skills. The organized group is providing penetration, which you don't need because of your penetration passive, just like Necromancers, Nightblades, and anyone who wears a lot of light armor.

If your group is really as organized as you claim, you can figure this out. The only groups that will really be hurt by this are the ones where everyone runs cookie cutter Alcast builds because they can't be bothered to coordinate their CP and gear to achieve the optimal penetration for their group composition.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny nerf.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So? All I did was respond to your false claim about the new Advanced Species being the only passive that gets worse in organized groups by pointing out that other classes have penetration passives too.

If anything, your bringing other passives into the discussion is the strawman here.

Actually, what I said was absolutely correct. Given meta setups, Necro and Nightblade pen passives are statically bad. They can't improve, and they can't get worse. Warden passive only gets worse the more class skills you use. You're actively punished for using class skills in organized groups. How does that apply to Necros and NBs? In fact, both classes get crit for slotting their class skills.

Everyone in this thread knows that's not what you meant. No organized group is telling you you have to slot 5 Animal Companions skills. The organized group is providing penetration, which you don't need because of your penetration passive, just like Necromancers, Nightblades, and anyone who wears a lot of light armor.

If your group is really as organized as you claim, you can figure this out. The only groups that will really be hurt by this are the ones where everyone runs cookie cutter Alcast builds because they can't be bothered to coordinate their CP and gear to achieve the optimal penetration.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny nerf.

Okay, so how exactly are Templars to achieve pen cap without those setups? DK? Sorc? Please, fill me in. Because as of this moment (as well as seemingly on PTS at this stage) the top DPS setup is Rele/Whorl. Neither set provides pen.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

So? All I did was respond to your false claim about the new Advanced Species being the only passive that gets worse in organized groups by pointing out that other classes have penetration passives too.

If anything, your bringing other passives into the discussion is the strawman here.

Actually, what I said was absolutely correct. Given meta setups, Necro and Nightblade pen passives are statically bad. They can't improve, and they can't get worse. Warden passive only gets worse the more class skills you use. You're actively punished for using class skills in organized groups. How does that apply to Necros and NBs? In fact, both classes get crit for slotting their class skills.

Everyone in this thread knows that's not what you meant. No organized group is telling you you have to slot 5 Animal Companions skills. The organized group is providing penetration, which you don't need because of your penetration passive, just like Necromancers, Nightblades, and anyone who wears a lot of light armor.

If your group is really as organized as you claim, you can figure this out. The only groups that will really be hurt by this are the ones where everyone runs cookie cutter Alcast builds because they can't be bothered to coordinate their CP and gear to achieve the optimal penetration.

In the grand scheme of things, this is a tiny nerf.

Okay, so how exactly are Templars to achieve pen cap without those setups? DK? Sorc? Please, fill me in. Because as of this moment (as well as seemingly on PTS at this stage) the top DPS setup is Rele/Whorl. Neither set provides pen.

They can wear more light armor than the Necromancers, Nightblades, and (soon) Wardens.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

They can wear more light armor than the Necromancers, Nightblades, and (soon) Wardens.

And then DK and Sorc will struggle to reach crit damage cap consistently. Should they race change to Khajiit too to validate your nonsense?

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

They can wear more light armor than the Necromancers, Nightblades, and (soon) Wardens.

And then DK and Sorc will struggle to reach crit damage cap consistently. Should they race change to Khajiit too to validate your nonsense?

This isn't a new problem. Groups with Necromancers and Nightblades have been dealing with it for ages.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

They can wear more light armor than the Necromancers, Nightblades, and (soon) Wardens.

And then DK and Sorc will struggle to reach crit damage cap consistently. Should they race change to Khajiit too to validate your nonsense?

This isn't a new problem. Groups with Necromancers and Nightblades have been dealing with it for ages.

The difference is, Necros and NBs have extremely strong DPS passives to compensate. Warden does not.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Not to mention Necro's top damage class skill (BB) went untouched, while Shalks got slapped around. Reverting this change would help prevent Wardens living in the basement this patch. That's been my point the entire time.

Aldoss · July 2022

Warden needs a rework of its passives to be more in line with other classes, just as @Skjaldbjorn pointed out.

Piercing Cold is the only passive that boosts damage with no hoops to jump through. Advanced Species was in line with all other classes that get bonuses for actually playing their class lines.

Glacial Presence is really frustrating because it contains a hoop that no other class has. In order to get our bonus, we have to use one of our only two frost skills (again, frozen device should be deleted from the game) to even have a chance to proc chill, or we must use a frost staff.

Minor brittle also doesn't seem to ever get applied unless a frost staff is equipped. Not sure if that's a bug or not.

Nightblades get 10% for simply existing. No hoops. Bonus damage.

Warden deserves something that isn't a hoop. There's too damn many!

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

So, just to compare, I snatched a random log from my main core. One of my raiders, who is a Stamcro, and I were the top-2 DPS in the fight.

My Shalks + Bear + Winter's = 38,588 DPS (30%)
His BB + Siphon + Boneyard = 43,832 DPS (30%)

Boneyard: 1s/10s -> 2s/20s (Damage per tick increased by 21%)
Siphon: .333ms/12s -> .666ms/20s (Damage per tick increased by 30%)
Blastbones: Unchanged

Shalks: 2 hits/6s -> 2 hits/8s (Damaged reduced by 8%) (Cost increased)
Winter's: 1s/12s -> 2s/20s (Damage reduced by 33%) (Cost increased)
Bear: Passive damage reduced by 19%. Crushing Swipe CD increased by 3s. Hemhorrage reduced from 100% to 5x multiplier.

Explain to me how this is balance. Necro was already top DPS in the live patch. Warden hovered in the mid-tier. And this is before you even account for the 2% per AC skill. That's just on top of nerfing literally everything that pushed Wardens up.

the1andonlyskwex · July 2022

If you want to rant about overall class balance, fine, but that's not why I came to this thread. I thought it was specifically about the change to Advanced Species. I'll show myself out.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

If you want to rant about overall class balance, fine, but that's not why I came to this thread. I thought it was specifically about the change to Advanced Species. I'll show myself out.

It is. And the change is god awful. You have to view changes within context. Within the vacuum of the patch. I'm not asking for a revert of every Warden nerf. Gilliam hates Wardens. I imagine PVP history nightmares keep him up late. But reverting the passive would at least lessen the bleeding that Warden is facing this patch.

virtus753 · July 2022

Not to invalidate a lot of the points made here (rather, I think this supports most of them), but it is not valid to assume that 990 pen gives 1.5% more damage or that the current Advanced Species passive gives 2% more damage. That will actually almost never be the case, even if you're not at pen cap.

660 pen does not represent a relative damage increase of 1%. It represents 1% more of your raw damage going through to the enemy, provided it does not bring its armor below zero.

That means that 660 pen goes much further if you have 0 penetration and not as far if you are close to cap:

At 18,200 resists, adding 660 pen means the target is now mitigating 17540/66000 (26.58%) damage, down from mitigating 18,200/66000 (27.58%) damage. That's 1% more raw damage coming through, but it is not a relative increase of 1% compared to your previous damage. That's because if you're doing 73.42% of your raw damage rather than 72.42% of your raw damage, you are doing 73.42%/74.24% = 1.0138 or 101.38% of your previous damage, for an increase of 1.38% damage compared to before.

But if you are closer to pen cap already, and let's say that 660 takes you to cap, then the boss was mitigating only 660/66000 = 1% of your damage before, and now it's mitigating 0%.

Doing 100% of your raw damage rather than 99% is a relative increase of 1.0101, or 1.01% damage. That same 660 did not go as far as before, relatively speaking, because you were already stacking a lot of effective penetration and were very close to the boss's pen cap.

So it is not correct to assume that 990 pen represents 1.5% more damage compared to the current 2% quoted in the passive now. It depends on how much pen you already have and how much armor your target has. (That principle also applies in PvP, but you are less likely to bring an enemy's resists down to zero there because the cap is higher and resistance debuffs are harder to apply.)

On the other hand, the current Advanced Species passive doesn't do what it says on the tin either if you have any other "damage done" bonuses already.

If you have CP that adds "damage done" or buffs like Minor/Major Berserk or Slayer, then the impact of the Advanced Species passive is diminished relatively speaking. That's because it stacks additively with those other bonuses.

If you have no other damage done bonuses, then one animal skill will provide that 2% quoted in the tooltip. If you're already stacking Minor and Major Berserk and Slayer, such as in an optimized trial situation in Kinras, and therefore already have 30% extra damage done, one animal skill adds only 2% onto that 32% for a relative increase of 1.34/1.32 = 1.0152, or +1.52% compared to before. The second skill will add ever so slightly less: 1.36/1.34 = 1.0149, or a gain of 1.49%, etc. If you're running Exploiter as well, then with both Major Slayer and Exploiter up the first animal skill adds only 1.41% damage and the second 1.39%. Adding any CP that adds "damage done" to your skills (Master at Arms, Deadly Aim, Biting Aura, Thaumaturge) likewise further diminishes the impact of the current animal skill passive on those skills.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that in PvE you do run into the pen cap quickly on light armor characters and in optimized trial situations, and extra pen is completely useless once you get there. It is more than fair to point out that extra damage done or crit chance or anything else that either doesn't have a cap or whose cap is impractical to reach will always help, whereas extra pen will often not. But it is to say that assuming 990 pen always gives 1.5% extra damage and the current passive always gives 2% extra damage is not true, relatively speaking, and that the mathematical comparisons are much more complicated than those assumptions make them seem. Even in PvP the new form of the passive will sometimes outperform the current one and sometimes it will be worse. It depends on the Warden's penetration compared to the enemy's armor, as well as buffs and CP slotted, and there are very realistic situations for each case (better or worse). In that respect, though, it seems like this will not have quite as marked an impact in PvP as in PvE, where there are more cases where more pen will just not do anything at all.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

So, just to compare, I snatched a random log from my main core. One of my raiders, who is a Stamcro, and I were the top-2 DPS in the fight.

My Shalks + Bear + Winter's = 38,588 DPS (30%)
His BB + Siphon + Boneyard = 43,832 DPS (30%)

Boneyard: 1s/10s -> 2s/20s (Damage per tick increased by 21%)
Siphon: .333ms/12s -> .666ms/20s (Damage per tick increased by 30%)

Blastbones: Unchanged

Shalks: 2 hits/6s -> 2 hits/8s (Damaged reduced by 8%) (Cost increased)
Winter's: 1s/12s -> 2s/20s (Damage reduced by 33%) (Cost increased)
Bear: Passive damage reduced by 19%. Crushing Swipe CD increased by 3s. Hemhorrage reduced from 100% to 5x multiplier.

Explain to me how this is balance. Necro was already top DPS in the live patch. Warden hovered in the mid-tier. And this is before you even account for the 2% per AC skill. That's just on top of nerfing literally everything that pushed Wardens up.

I really don't think they accounted for Advanced Species when they were doing the rest if the DoTs and damage nerfs.

Like if they did the pen change but then build the damage buff into the changes so instead nerfing shalks by 8%, they increase the Damage by say 2-3%, still get the cost increase whatevs.

Or Winter's Revenge only would get nerfed by like 25% or something.

But instead we get hit by a double nerf and get a Pen passive, that's mostly useless to me since I run light on my Magden.

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

virtus753 wrote: »

Of course this doesn't change the fact that in PvE you do run into the pen cap quickly on light armor characters and in optimized trial situations, and extra pen is completely useless once you get there. It is more than fair to point out that extra damage done or crit chance or anything else that either doesn't have a cap or whose cap is impractical to reach will always help, whereas extra pen will often not. But it is to say that assuming 990 pen always gives 1.5% extra damage and the current passive always gives 2% extra damage is not true, relatively speaking, and that the mathematical comparisons are much more complicated than those assumptions make them seem. Even in PvP the new form of the passive will sometimes outperform the current one and sometimes it will be worse. It depends on the Warden's penetration compared to the enemy's armor, as well as buffs and CP slotted, and there are very realistic situations for each case (better or worse). In that respect, though, it seems like this will not have quite as marked an impact in PvP as in PvE, where there are more cases where more pen will just not do anything at all.

Sorry to snip your post, but wanted to quote something shorter. You made some really compelling and fair points, particularly as it pertains to how percentages actually work in ESO. It's very rare they do what they say on the tin and all that. I've even noticed that for sets like Kinras when it released and actually found it fairly underwhelming at the time compared to other options considering how high its listed damage would suggest.

But yeah, I am speaking purely from a PVE perspective. It's what I do. I have been an end-game raider for 20+ years. I have pushed world firsts in WoW. I have pushed the tippity top end-game content in other MMOs. Honestly, ESO is the worst balanced MMO I have ever played and it's not particularly close. I'm not asking for buffs to Warden or even reverts to most of the changes. Simply to do something to stop the bleeding, flip the passive to something useful in more areas and give us something back when so much was yanked away.

virtus753 · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

Of course this doesn't change the fact that in PvE you do run into the pen cap quickly on light armor characters and in optimized trial situations, and extra pen is completely useless once you get there. It is more than fair to point out that extra damage done or crit chance or anything else that either doesn't have a cap or whose cap is impractical to reach will always help, whereas extra pen will often not. But it is to say that assuming 990 pen always gives 1.5% extra damage and the current passive always gives 2% extra damage is not true, relatively speaking, and that the mathematical comparisons are much more complicated than those assumptions make them seem. Even in PvP the new form of the passive will sometimes outperform the current one and sometimes it will be worse. It depends on the Warden's penetration compared to the enemy's armor, as well as buffs and CP slotted, and there are very realistic situations for each case (better or worse). In that respect, though, it seems like this will not have quite as marked an impact in PvP as in PvE, where there are more cases where more pen will just not do anything at all.

Sorry to snip your post, but wanted to quote something shorter. You made some really compelling and fair points, particularly as it pertains to how percentages actually work in ESO. It's very rare they do what they say on the tin and all that. I've even noticed that for sets like Kinras when it released and actually found it fairly underwhelming at the time compared to other options considering how high its listed damage would suggest.

But yeah, I am speaking purely from a PVE perspective. It's what I do. I have been an end-game raider for 20+ years. I have pushed world firsts in WoW. I have pushed the tippity top end-game content in other MMOs. Honestly, ESO is the worst balanced MMO I have ever played and it's not particularly close. I'm not asking for buffs to Warden or even reverts to most of the changes. Simply to do something to stop the bleeding, flip the passive to something useful in more areas and give us something back when so much was yanked away.

That's totally fair! The math gets long in the tooth. I appreciate your reply, and I'll reiterate that I think those points still do stand. I just wanted people to be careful of trying to compare things at what seems like face value.

That's also part of the big problem with the timing of the updated buffs to the trial dummy: there is no flat percentage increase it is giving. It depends on your damage done buffs, your weapon/spell damage (including what is added by your max stamina/magicka), your weapon/spell damage modifier, your penetration before, whether the new penetration allowed you to give up a mace or Kra'gh/Valkyn for a dagger or not, and (if you're running the 6% damage stars) how much of your damage is direct vs. DoT and single target vs. AoE. It's very possible to calculate for a specific build how much the dummy is adding, but there is quite a difference between, say, 10% extra damage and 16%+ extra damage. There are likely builds where the dummy adds below 10% and more than 16% too. It's hard not just that the dummy got buffs so the results can't be immediately compared but also that the buffs can't be calculated at a glance with a single simple equation. The losses are entirely obfuscated on the trial dummies.

Krym · July 2022

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Wardens on the other hand would be overpenning by 2,633. That exceeds both the combined values of Crusher and the missing penetration to reach cap. That's with only three skills. Were a Warden to run more, the excess and thus wasted stat gets progressively worse. Even in full medium this passive is abysmal and serves no real purpose in any form of organized content. Every single one of these armor debuffs can easily be applied even in 4-man content with minimal stress.

Penetration in general as a class passive is a completely garbage idea, honestly, and should be sent to the woodchipper.

there are also the 950 from the wood elf racial, and the new (hopefully fixed) CP node.

the point of pen in classes is that they gain stuff elsewhere. if you run necros and wardens that overpen heavily, the sensible reaction would be the decrease the average group pen (like have tanks take off tremor, meaning they can choose are more selfish or other support option) so other classes have to sacrifice some of their damage slots to hit the pen target (mundus, weapon, etc.), which would decrease their damage. an indirect nerf.

you could already do this by having them take off crimson AND tremor, then get one stam to wear alkosh.

in the end it's just a large cost/benefit calculation, influenced by which classes you run as what and where. the other way is homogenization which people are complaining about (personally I rather have some class flavor than end up with the same skill as everyone else, just in a different color).

Skjaldbjorn · July 2022

Krym wrote: »

Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

Wardens on the other hand would be overpenning by 2,633. That exceeds both the combined values of Crusher and the missing penetration to reach cap. That's with only three skills. Were a Warden to run more, the excess and thus wasted stat gets progressively worse. Even in full medium this passive is abysmal and serves no real purpose in any form of organized content. Every single one of these armor debuffs can easily be applied even in 4-man content with minimal stress.

Penetration in general as a class passive is a completely garbage idea, honestly, and should be sent to the woodchipper.

there are also the 950 from the wood elf racial, and the new (hopefully fixed) CP node.

the point of pen in classes is that they gain stuff elsewhere. if you run necros and wardens that overpen heavily, the sensible reaction would be the decrease the average group pen (like have tanks take off tremor, meaning they can choose are more selfish or other support option) so other classes have to sacrifice some of their damage slots to hit the pen target (mundus, weapon, etc.), which would decrease their damage. an indirect nerf.

you could already do this by having them take off crimson AND tremor, then get one stam to wear alkosh.

in the end it's just a large cost/benefit calculation, influenced by which classes you run as what and where. the other way is homogenization which people are complaining about (personally I rather have some class flavor than end up with the same skill as everyone else, just in a different color).

No group is going to remove buff sets that benefit their top DPS classes for a Warden. That simply isn't realistic. Necro and Templar seem primed to be top DPS next patch given the current PTS results I have seen thus far. If your group is 5 Necro DPS, 2 Templar DPS and a Warden DPS, why the hell would you drop Tremor or Crimson to assist the Warden? You'd just let them overpen and suffer.