The Reality of These Changes

WolfySaurusREX · July 2022

With these new changes on the PTS, it is safe to say that the majority of the players have been very critical.

ZOS, please understand that while many of these people may indeed be having a knee jerk reaction, not all of us are. The people who genuinely care about the games future have deeply thought about it and we've all come to the same conclusions about what these changes mean for this "delta" that was mentioned. But instead of going over what other people already have with the DPS/HPS/Rotations and whatnot, I'd like to speak more generally. In every single good game that has ever existed, hard work is rewarded. Here is a message that I've sent to many of the PVE community and no one has disagreed:

"Ultimately what makes a game enjoyable is when it gives you motivation to improve endlessly. When it rewards your hard work with better DPS/gear/content/etc... That's why everyone has such a big issue with this new update at the end of the day. It's just taking away from the people who have worked so hard to master certain skillsets like rotation/weaving. And what makes it so much more odd is that they tried to portray it as being beneficial in the sense that it decreases the delta between the lower end players and the endgame players which is just flat out wrong and we've actually seen it now on the PTS. The new update doesn't just hurt the end game players but the newer players too. It is really just a slap in the face to all the people who have practiced for so long to master the skillsets needed to be viable in end game. I just talked to a friend yesterday who is pretty new to the game and he even said that it's gonna suck when the update comes out because he just achieved 60k DPS and now he feels a little bit demotivated because it will go back down to 50k or somewhere around there. A game should motivate, not demotivate. He also mentioned that he saw similar updates with WOW during it's decline in player base. The updates that tried to cater to newer players and in doing so, killed all motivation to even want to get to endgame. Psychologically, players work hard in a game in order to feel unique and stand out as a good player. It's a good feeling when you finally get there and people say "yeah, this person is cracked." These kinds of updates reduce the drive of individuals to want to perfect these mechanics such as weaving and rotation because now it will matter less. If we take 2 people with equal skill levels as far as rotation but one is far better at weaving, with this new update, the person who is far better at weaving will only hit marginally harder than the other person. This is something that shouldn't make sense because again, hard work should be rewarded and it should mean more than it will with this new update."

So with that being said, I will propose a solution. ZOS, you said that rotation/weaving is a fundamental part of the game. This is good! It is quite unique in that manner so let's keep it that way. Let's help the newer players understand that it is fundamental. In the tutorial of the game, there is no mention of rotation/weaving whatsoever. Why? If it's fundamental, why is it not mentioned? You've left many of the experienced players on their own to try and help teach the newer players rather than the game doing it to begin with. These new players are thrown into the game thinking that using a skill and light attacking or heavy attacking is the extent of the combat when it's not. The rotations and weaving is super important and needs to mentioned in the tutorial. If you want to help the new players, why not start there? And while you're at it, make a mention of the training dummies! Let them know that dummies exist so that they can practice their rotation/weaving. And once they start practicing, their hard work SHOULD be rewarded and it should feel substantial!

I truly do care about this game. I have been playing it for years and I really really don't wanna see it go down a path that eventually leads to the player base feeling like they don't matter and ultimately quitting. You make a lot of good decisions ZOS, this was not one of them. I only just made this forum account because I truly believe that these changes will destroy many people's motivation to want to play anymore. The changes negatively affect everyone, not just end game. I am begging for these changes to be reversed. I've helped many many people in ESO get their DPS up, clear new trials, dungeons, etc... These changes WILL make it harder to help these kinds of players.

Lastly, because I did not make mentions of the DPS/HPS/Rotation side of things, I will leave a couple links that talk about them here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611285/thoughts-from-an-end-game-pve-raid-lead/p1 - DPS/Rotation
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611333/pve-healers-accessibility-and-hard-mode-trials#latest - HPS

TLDR; Game is not motivating people to get better and doesn't give newer players the resources to experience the fundamentals of combat such as rotation/weaving. These new changes will also reduce the rewarding feeling a player gets when practicing combat because the weaving/rotation will matter far less now.

SeaUnicorn · July 2022

From what I see casual, mid tier and end game players are all not happy about the changes.

Mr_Stach · July 2022

I have a lot of Knee Jerk Reactions, but most from one specific point of view:
Warden

I'm very opposed to Zos' Design Philosophy, because of these huge swings and lack of vision which can all be seen in Warden.

And it's fair, there's a lot of things that need to be tested but there's also just bad changes right from Zos' Notes that just show a disconnect. Last Patch Warden's Had "Too Much Offensive Nature" So they nerfed Arctic Blast. Now they Bring the Stun from Arctic Blast kind of back but it can be blocked so it's basically the same.

Now Buffing Screaming Cliff Racer, which personally I'm all for, I dislike the Idea of range dependent mechanics, but the Ranged mechanic is still there to proc Off-Balance and this comment takes the cake :

"Screaming Cliff Racer's passive power ups helps more Magicka focused Wardens make up for some of their lacking damage output"

Lacking Damage Output, Magicka Wardens lack Damage output, but right before this change:

It's just hard to not having these knee jerk reactions, Zos would be a great Thriller Novel Writer because every sentence is a Plot Twist.

I really REALLY hope Zos listens to feedback, we're going to have a lot. And if they don't there's just going to be less and less people participating in PTS Cycles, it's just frustrating.

Elsha · July 2022

This so much! Please, please, please, ZoS. These are not the changes the game needs!

fred4 · July 2022

I agree, but I want to play devil's advocate for what I think Gilliam actually means. I think he may be trying to address a shortcoming that was levelled at the game in the early days, although I haven't heard it much lately. The problem of difficulty spikes. The fact that you can do overland and think you know everything, but then you're faced with a world boss or a dungeon (or PvP) that so badly beats your behind, you have no idea what you're doing wrong or how to improve.

Addressing this in the 8th year of the game seems strange and pointless, because it has evolved so much. Between nerfed Craglorn, delves, public dungeons, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, hard modes, DLC dungeons, side bosses and extra final ones, not to mention Craglorn trials vs harder DLC ones, there is much more graduated content than there used to be. Nonetheless, isn't this was ZOS are on about? Although he specifically mentioned testing the new player experience, I think this may be meant to address all levels of players, as well as power creep at the very high end.

He may also be thinking specifically about future content ZOS are going to create. I mean, he said as much, didn't he? This kind of ignores lessons from vMA, which one of the developers has called the best thing they've ever done. I don't disagree, because vMA is a place with a lot of scope to improve your time, when you know it really well. Being a high-end player not just in terms of weaving, but memorising spawn points and developing the best strategies for nuking the bosses pays off big time. What if a new player insists "oh, I should be able to get onto the vMA leaderboard". What then? Almost seems like that's what ZOS are trying to cater for now.

DrSlaughtr · July 2022

I'm a little less concerned about them now than the original announcement, but I still think this hurts average players more than elite players. On the PVE side, DPS requirements will still be high for vet raid groups, and those numbers will be harder to hit with reduced damage output for average players, rather than elites who will figure out ways to keep pumping out max damage.

On the PVP side, LAs and HAs will still be used and will still push damage output, same as before, it will just be a little less so. You will still do a lot more damage than the newer player who hasn't figured out how to weave or only to hit frags when it's ready. It's up to players to still teach that person, and the person has to be open to learning. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Cuddlypuff · July 2022

My wife and I quit PVE a long time ago due to the lack of endgame raiding and this sort of stuff makes it less and less likely that we will ever do serious raiding again. The truly sad part is we have the DPS/experience for trial trifectas and carrying newbie runs but we (and thousands of players like us) are sitting out because ZOS keeps disrupting the game to the point that endgame PVE cannot ever reach the level of activity that we are expecting for a "top MMO".

You can think of the PVE and PVP endgame player base as an iceberg. Only the 1% tip is active at any one time. 99% have quit or just don't bother anymore. Maybe a better question for developers to ponder is why capable players are no longer engaging with their content. What is the point of trying to get new players there if you can't retain them?

prof_doom · July 2022

You call it a "knee-jerk" reaction, but a lot of the people who are making these comments didn't load the PTS to know what the changes were going to do.

The "endgame" people know how to run the numbers and can tell you with a fair amount of accuracy what a parse is going to be just from the gear and skills used.

Tannus15 · July 2022

The closest thing sorcs got to a buff is the atro synergy change. Everything else was a nerf. I didn't need to do a parse to know it was going to be bad.

I did a parse anyway, and it was bad.

I've posted 21m and 3m parses and messed with setups and it's still a huge dps loss, even ignoring the changes made to the 21m dummy.

There is nothing "knee-jerk" in my reaction to saying this update is terrible. It is far worse than I expected when I read the combat update post.
I was expecting dots and light attack nerfs and then skill balancing. Not bonus nerfs on top of that.

There is nothing that can be adjusted here. There is no theory craft way to dig sorc out of the hole it's in now. It's a single target dps class that does less single target dps than pretty much everyone else.

I can say without hyperbole that if these changes go live as they are i won't be continuing the vRG HM prog I've been leading.
I don't see the point, it's a waste of my time.
I will be stopping raid leading until things are fixed in a future update.

Toxic_Hemlock · July 2022

The reality for me is this:

If it takes much longer to defeat trash enemies with these changes, I will leave and take my ESO+ with me. I left NWN for the same reason BTW and taking a hour to do a quest that used to take 5 minutes is not fun, IT IS TEDIOUS.

If I cannot even attempt harder content because I am throttled by these changes, I will cancel it too. Sorry if I have a life outside of ESO, but that is the truth and taking more time to do things is not what I wanted from a casual game that I returned to when I saw it was easier now.

If I need to remake my gear yet again, I won't leave this time, but I WISH they would not redesign the game every other month as it is very tiresome!

Minno · July 2022

fred4 wrote: »

I agree, but I want to play devil's advocate for what I think Gilliam actually means. I think he may be trying to address a shortcoming that was levelled at the game in the early days, although I haven't heard it much lately. The problem of difficulty spikes. The fact that you can do overland and think you know everything, but then you're faced with a world boss or a dungeon (or PvP) that so badly beats your behind, you have no idea what you're doing wrong or how to improve.

Addressing this in the 8th year of the game seems strange and pointless, because it has evolved so much. Between nerfed Craglorn, delves, public dungeons, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, hard modes, DLC dungeons, side bosses and extra final ones, not to mention Craglorn trials vs harder DLC ones, there is much more graduated content than there used to be. Nonetheless, isn't this was ZOS are on about? Although he specifically mentioned testing the new player experience, I think this may be meant to address all levels of players, as well as power creep at the very high end.

He may also be thinking specifically about future content ZOS are going to create. I mean, he said as much, didn't he? This kind of ignores lessons from vMA, which one of the developers has called the best thing they've ever done. I don't disagree, because vMA is a place with a lot of scope to improve your time, when you know it really well. Being a high-end player not just in terms of weaving, but memorising spawn points and developing the best strategies for nuking the bosses pays off big time. What if a new player insists "oh, I should be able to get onto the vMA leaderboard". What then? Almost seems like that's what ZOS are trying to cater for now.

Actually after reading the notes, it looks like they are nerfing dots/light attacks because they instead want to force players to use their class spamable more.

Which sucks in some ways because ESO can be very indepth in build/combat selection, but the game feels very flat on live. For example, instead of other games with passives that might be more limited in access where youll be locked out of certain passives/talents if you go too deep into one aspect or build, in ESO you can select all the passives and there is no downside for grabbing them. It feels weird because that aspect of choice and identity is lost.

Now it also looks like another homogeneous flatting of spells because now the experience is further cemented in the dmg/tank/healer role (I.E. templar being forced more to use jabs/sweeps). But if they can buff all the niche utility stuff and add interesting class unique mechanics, it will be a good change because every class's main dmg ability is visible instead of having more passive dmg hitting players. But this change needs more thought in the other more niche abilities. Like templar's purfying light spell; it's a burst spell which you can tack on enemy targets and get a more offensive friendly AOE heal which gets nerfed under this blanket change.

But I am not sure if any of this aligns with any intent. I am still waiting on the devs to show us how they feel each class is supposed to function from a roleplaying/thematic perspective. And I do not know how I feel about any change until I see that design intent.

DairyCat · July 2022

fred4 wrote: »

I agree, but I want to play devil's advocate for what I think Gilliam actually means. I think he may be trying to address a shortcoming that was levelled at the game in the early days, although I haven't heard it much lately. The problem of difficulty spikes. The fact that you can do overland and think you know everything, but then you're faced with a world boss or a dungeon (or PvP) that so badly beats your behind, you have no idea what you're doing wrong or how to improve.

Addressing this in the 8th year of the game seems strange and pointless, because it has evolved so much. Between nerfed Craglorn, delves, public dungeons, normal dungeons, vet dungeons, hard modes, DLC dungeons, side bosses and extra final ones, not to mention Craglorn trials vs harder DLC ones, there is much more graduated content than there used to be. Nonetheless, isn't this was ZOS are on about? Although he specifically mentioned testing the new player experience, I think this may be meant to address all levels of players, as well as power creep at the very high end.

He may also be thinking specifically about future content ZOS are going to create. I mean, he said as much, didn't he? This kind of ignores lessons from vMA, which one of the developers has called the best thing they've ever done. I don't disagree, because vMA is a place with a lot of scope to improve your time, when you know it really well. Being a high-end player not just in terms of weaving, but memorising spawn points and developing the best strategies for nuking the bosses pays off big time. What if a new player insists "oh, I should be able to get onto the vMA leaderboard". What then? Almost seems like that's what ZOS are trying to cater for now.

I think the only way these changes make sense is if they're gearing up to adjust dungeon and trial content accordingly as well.

I like their philosophy. Currently the skill curve is quite steep, at least anecdotally from pugging. let's say the release a dungeon designed for a group that can output 100K DPS. All the groups that are doing 130K DPS each are just going to breeze through that content and it won't be fun. All the guys doing 10-20K DPS are going to think it's impossible and never attempt it. So ZOS has spent all this time designing a dungeon that's only going to be fun and challenging for a very narrow group of players, those with DPS around the 40-50K (assuming 2x DPS, 1 tank, 1 healer). That's arguably not rewarding for the devs that put all the time into making that dungeon.

So they want the curve to be more gentle so that when they do release a dungeon, it's going to be available to a wider group of people. But for sure their numbers need a lot of tuning.

Sowano · July 2022

The only good change I've seen from the patch note is empower, 10 sec may be a bit too much but 7-8 sec would be adequate in my opinion.

shadyjane62 · July 2022

I wrote out a whole wall of text to explain how I feel about my char being totally destroyed.

I deleted it because I realized I have already given up.

kind_hero · July 2022

As a casual player, I am confused by all these changes. I am playing since the beginning of the game, so I can say that I have seen most of the combat changes (a few years ago I still cared).

Right now, I am not interested anymore because the changes are chaotic. They never solve anything, except making people change gear and keep the prices of tempers high. Before I get familiarized with a new set of changes, this and that item/set/ability gets nerfed, and a whole play style has to be changed. OK. These things happen to keep a game like this alive. But ZOS is creating a mess each and every time. They release all sorts of new sets and "must-have" mythics, but they change dozens of other sets and nerf the mythics a patch later. Really, it's so annoying.

I gave up on raids and vet trials a few chapters ago because of all this nonsense. I still enjoy a part of the game, but that doesn't keep me interested for a full year long chapter (this release style has gotten pretty old and boring tbh)

I just hope that one day there will be some big combat overhaul followed only by small tweaks for a few years. As it is now, it's like we get a combat X.0 each time. It's tiresome.

Tigertron · July 2022

Truth is I'm willing to bet you have not seen the worst of it yet.

Bottom line is its just a game (for the majority) and like any form of entertainment you can just stop it and there is no effect on your life.

For ZOS/Bethesda/Microsoft it is revenue and even a sole source of income for some of them. Think what you may about how they manage the game but how many of you have achieved as much? If they fail and scare everyone away then they must be new.

ectoplasmicninja · July 2022

If they feel like content is inaccessible to too many players, I'd rather they adjust content than constantly change skills. What I conceive of as good content is not damage sponges or hard DPS/heal checks, but mechanics that require you to pay attention, multitask, communicate, coordinate, and practice. I don't want to be able to stand in one place and burn the boss. That is boring. Give me phases, adds to interrupt, activities to perform, things to interact with in some way - those are things that will make content possible to complete even with limited DPS.

I speak as a mediocre player myself, who plays with a casual guild. We wiped probably 7 or 8 times on the last boss of vet Shipwright's Regret (our first vet run of it) the other night, but from the first wipe we could see that it was achievable as long as we were all on the ball with movement and interrupts and focusing adds. I actually find that the newer DLC dungeons are pretty well done in that regard. They're very doable on normal and also surprisingly doable on vet - hardmode is where the extra challenge comes from and being able to trigger it on individual bosses is a great idea IMO.

Yet they are now cutting down DPS by a cool 20 or 30% because power creep has made content easier to complete...while saying combat needs to be more accessible to new and casual players. As someone who, as stated above, is a mediocre player, we struggled to complete a vDLC without HM and now I'm losing 20% of my damage (not to mention the hit to sustain and healing and everything else) while that content is not getting nerfed. How does this make anything more accessible?