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We will be performing maintenance for patch 12.0.4 on the PTS on Monday at 12:00AM EDT (4:00 UTC).
Trivial reason everyone is angry with the patch ...
Klingenlied
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... might just be one simple fact: We do actually loose years in power progression - with nothing gained or really changed for it.
This might slightly differ from class to class. But really, you can not just invalidate years worth of playtime and think people will be happy about it.
I love it that you really want to shake things up. I love it that you really think deeply about some class issues. But I am real here. Despite a lot of nice ideas, way more is so bad in execution that I am absolutely unable to look forward to Update 35 with any semblance of happy anticipation. If update 35 hits as is - dang this will be grueling times for us all. Might even go down in MMO history as one of the biggest failures of a patch ever.
This might slightly differ from class to class. But really, you can not just invalidate years worth of playtime and think people will be happy about it.
I love it that you really want to shake things up. I love it that you really think deeply about some class issues. But I am real here. Despite a lot of nice ideas, way more is so bad in execution that I am absolutely unable to look forward to Update 35 with any semblance of happy anticipation. If update 35 hits as is - dang this will be grueling times for us all. Might even go down in MMO history as one of the biggest failures of a patch ever.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone's unhappy because they are losing years of power progression, but that's really the point of this patch.
ESO is all about horizontal progression. The Devs add player power in the form of new mythic items, new gear, and buffs to underused skills and classes. The Devs take away player power from older gear and and nerfs to overused skills and classes. And every so often, when power creep has hit a certain point, they hard nerf everyone. And the cycle starts anew.
Morrowind and Murkmire were two big nerf updates. Both of them hit everyone from ceiling to floor. Lost Depths is going to be another one.
Of course players aren't happy. But losing years of power progression creep (that the Devs added into the game) is a feature of this update, not a bug.7 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If content can be cleared at new damage levels, I think the dps loss should be acceptable, but I am not a sweaty PvEer by any means.
However, the DoT changes without a doubt will make combat a boring spamfest while everyone has nothing else to do waiting 10-15 seconds before DoTs need to be refreshed. This is not active combat, it's dull.7 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »... might just be one simple fact: We do actually loose years in power progression - with nothing gained or really changed for it.
This might slightly differ from class to class. But really, you can not just invalidate years worth of playtime and think people will be happy about it.
I love it that you really want to shake things up. I love it that you really think deeply about some class issues. But I am real here. Despite a lot of nice ideas, way more is so bad in execution that I am absolutely unable to look forward to Update 35 with any semblance of happy anticipation. If update 35 hits as is - dang this will be grueling times for us all. Might even go down in MMO history as one of the biggest failures of a patch ever.
Yes. We lose time in progression. But a lot of players not only interested in progression. They like some sets, game styles in the game and etc. So they stop progression in some primary way and do different progression.
Each change kills sets, skills, builds - that people like.
For me progression is not interesting thing to do. I can do LA rotation with no MISS, but i do not like it. I like some build and game style.
If new balance kills my favorite builds, sets, classes - it just make me angry. I can play in any other build or rotation - but i DO NOT like it.
Thats why constant changes that kill everything is bad.
If some core balance will be achived that everyone likes - and only new items and skills will be added next, all be fine.
Forum is not the primary place where a lot of players wright. I am very strict and i as example already was banned hear (on forum) about 5 times, so a lot of different points of view is not even represented here.
If i am quite strict and it is hard to do some thing with me - a lot of new players and players with different point of view that will come hear - will not live here for long. This game and forum is very specific place.
So a lot of players who wright here are more focused on some 1 idea and view how players must to play. But in game there are a lot of people who think different. Do not think that they will appear on this forum a lot.
Now there are to much bad changes next patches, thats why I am afraid of bad changes and are here. Other way i would not need be here, whyle players who represent only theit favorite game style will not nerf some thing again, that i do care )))
I do not know on what idea game creators make their in game changes, but if on ideas of players from this forum - that is not represent even 2% of what players want and think - it is a danger for me as a pkayer. So i appear here some times if i affraid that thingth goes really bad.
And it some times look that bad, that it is hard to be "polit" speaking about it )))1 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭Maybe I should have put the "without nothing gained or really changed" for it bold too
Thing is: we can make changes. But the direction should move us into a better game. A better meta. Some real advantages. Whatever they wanted to achieve, they just failed. Thats the big point. We only get a loss in power. We gain nothing. And especially mid progression raid teams will be very angry because a lot of their efforts will be in vain when the raid dps drops by like 40-100k.
Does this help new players? Not really. Does this help in retaining the playerbase? Not likely. Does it help PvP? Well, that's hard to say, but I wouldn't count on it.1 -
Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭20s durations on AoEs and DoT's...... it's just so boring. I get wanting to make rotations simpler but man I could go make a cup of coffee and be back before I need to reapply DoTs, it's insane.Altoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup6 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭20s durations on AoEs and DoT's...... it's just so boring. I get wanting to make rotations simpler but man I could go make a cup of coffee and be back before I need to reapply DoTs, it's insane.
What is much different for your rotation will you do 9 dots and 11 spammables or 10 dots ? )))
As example with this standartization DK has skills with 15/20/24/36 seconds time )))
I do not really like it )))
But yes the 10-14 seconds dots looks better for me and my build too.Edited by JustAGoodPlayer on July 13, 2022 1:09PM0 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭Progression is relative. If everyone loses it, no one loses it.
Is this really correct though? If you can still clear everything, then it is fine. If you can no longer clear something or meet the dps requirement for something, this is real bad. If your Arena run suddenly takes longer - or you start dying due to lower dps / lower heal per second - this is another disadvantage everyone will be unhappy about.
I don't care in regards to "overworld" content. Boring as it is. But when a patch likely won't improve the game for anyone that is CP 160+, it feels like the wrong path to take. And elswhere I guess I said I like a lot of ideas behind the changes. It's just that the current iteration won't bring the benefits they talked about.4 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Progression is relative. If everyone loses it, no one loses it.
The average players/casuals lose it the most. Come late August they will be unable to do content they used to be able to do.
And there's no reason for it. The game is fun right now. High damage numbers are fun. Oakensoul is fun. Feeling powerful is fun.
Practicing perfect weaving is not fun but that's like the only combat/damage change they needed to make. Instead they took a sledgehammer to it all. This is one of the most major nerf patches I've seen in this game and I've been around since 2013. There will be blowback and there will be buffs afterward because of it.
And it could have all been avoided if whoever is in charge of the combat balancing used a precision scalpel for things like weaving and some minor balance changes instead of a sledgehammer like Gallagher on a watermelon.
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Mr_Stach✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think zos could have put engagements or mechanics that push players to become better players. Maybe a Dojo where an Instructor teaches different levels of weaving. AoE obstacle course. I think FF14 has a pretty decent setup for teaching each role that Zos could learn a bit from.
Make players better, don't make the game dumberAltoholic, Frost Warden Sympathizer and Main
Glacial Guardian - Main - Frost Warden Zealot
The Frost Man Cometh - PC Frost Backup1 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭First of all - no one think that some one is better payer because of his DPS or doing LA beetwin skills.
To become better player - game already had a lot of options )1 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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The point of the patch was, quite literally, to:VaranisArano wrote: »Everyone's unhappy because they are losing years of power progression, but that's really the point of this patch.
Close the skill gap so that making and balancing content for everyone (or at least a wider audience) will be easier.The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve.
None of the proposed changes actually do that in their current form given the broad nature and severity of said changes.
I've said it before, but everything in this patch has actually been needed for a long time and should have been much higher on the list of priorities than implementing said powercreep from the start. However, the content itself must be rebalanced at the same time. For example, FFXIV was rebalanced with Endwalker because of the powercreep implemented into the game with constant new item level gear and various (albeit small) changes to abilities. So they said: we're going to reduce DPS output, but at the same time we're going to reduce enemy HP. Players won't feel like they're getting weaker. They felt that the health on bosses was getting a bit absurd given the DPS playres were able to pull.
Changes like those being proposed in U35 only serve to hurt the community more than help it. It has the overall opposite effect of closing the skill gap due to the far reaching nature of the changes. Now, things look a lot more insurmountable than they did before to someone attempting to get into the various combat related content, even overland questers will be affected to some degree, while those at the top will still be at the top (if they stick around) despite being hit by 20k-40k.
But they had the overall opposite effect as group DPS still went up during those updates despite people on the forum saying they were all getting nerfed.VaranisArano wrote: »Morrowind and Murkmire were two big nerf updates. Both of them hit everyone from ceiling to floor. Lost Depths is going to be another one.
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics4 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭And who nerf the most part of the game ? LA players ? )))
I am HA player - because be LA is a shame )))Edited by JustAGoodPlayer on July 13, 2022 1:24PM1 -
JanTanhide✭✭✭✭✭
✭Klingenlied wrote: »... might just be one simple fact: We do actually loose years in power progression - with nothing gained or really changed for it.
This might slightly differ from class to class. But really, you can not just invalidate years worth of playtime and think people will be happy about it.
I love it that you really want to shake things up. I love it that you really think deeply about some class issues. But I am real here. Despite a lot of nice ideas, way more is so bad in execution that I am absolutely unable to look forward to Update 35 with any semblance of happy anticipation. If update 35 hits as is - dang this will be grueling times for us all. Might even go down in MMO history as one of the biggest failures of a patch ever.
Be something like a new world dumpster fire. Yep.2 -
davelbier✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Everyone's unhappy because they are losing years of power progression, but that's really the point of this patch.
im unhappy because they seem to be redesigning the entire game around a ridiculous OP mythic
the constant changes in this game keep me from spending more money on it.0 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭Constant changes in old part of the game that already worked good is really bad thing (2
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FantasticFreddie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I was in vKA hm last night, with an overall good group.
The pulls were all in excess of 12 minutes for the last boss because he has a quarter BILLION hit points
We didn't clear. Not because of any one thing. People just got tired. Fps was dropping. A tank crashed, and then the other tank crashed. Healers started to get sloppy by the third or forth pull-- 2 straight hours of raiding, with multiple 10 minute plus pulls on last boss will do that. People started to dot out.
This is not an elite end game team. This are mid-level players, trying to improve. We did every single mechanic the best we could. We were able to kill about half the torturers, but didn't have the dps to kill all of them.
At the end of the night we left feeling defeated. How long will that fight take us next patch? We are struggling with it so much now-- will it even be POSSIBLE?
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Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭However, the content itself must be rebalanced at the same time. For example, FFXIV was rebalanced with Endwalker because of the powercreep implemented into the game with constant new item level gear and various (albeit small) changes to abilities. So they said: we're going to reduce DPS output, but at the same time we're going to reduce enemy HP. Players won't feel like they're getting weaker. They felt that the health on bosses was getting a bit absurd given the DPS playres were able to pull.
But what's the point of nerfing DPS and content to match the nerf if the net effect of doing both is the same as now? Just keep it the way it is and save yourself all that unnecessary work.
We used to do something like 10 to 100 damage way back in beta, and mobs had hit points in the hundreds not thousands. They increased those numbers across the board. Net effect was the same as it was before but all the numbers looked higher and you could squeeze in fractions of damage now (you can't do 100.5 damage, but you can do 1,005 damage). Decreasing DPS and content would be like working that beta scenario backwards: same net effect but all numbers are smaller, and what's the point? Plus that kind of change is a LOT more labor-intensive than just increasing everything by a factor of 10 or 100 or whatever it was, I forget it was 2013.0 -
Klingenlied✭✭✭✭Holycannoli wrote: »However, the content itself must be rebalanced at the same time. For example, FFXIV was rebalanced with Endwalker because of the powercreep implemented into the game with constant new item level gear and various (albeit small) changes to abilities. So they said: we're going to reduce DPS output, but at the same time we're going to reduce enemy HP. Players won't feel like they're getting weaker. They felt that the health on bosses was getting a bit absurd given the DPS playres were able to pull.
But what's the point of nerfing DPS and content to match the nerf if the net effect of doing both is the same as now? Just keep it the way it is and save yourself all that unnecessary work.
We used to do something like 10 to 100 damage way back in beta, and mobs had hit points in the hundreds not thousands. They increased those numbers across the board. Net effect was the same as it was before but all the numbers looked higher and you could squeeze in fractions of damage now (you can't do 100.5 damage, but you can do 1,005 damage). Decreasing DPS and content would be like working that beta scenario backwards: same net effect but all numbers are smaller, and what's the point? Plus that kind of change is a LOT more labor-intensive than just increasing everything by a factor of 10 or 100 or whatever it was, I forget it was 2013.
People don't want or need a general hp pool for PvE content. We do play a MMORPG. It is general considered acceptable that with years passing, even the hardest content gets less hard - but still attractive - because it gets more accessible for more players. The best of the best will still go for their trifecta runs and likely still achieve those. But groups that were a little more on the casual side, with their life balanced around gaming as a side hobby only, might suddenly realize they are now locked out of some content.
Further solo Arenas. I pity those that still want to finish up their sticker book. Runs will definitely take longer now - and depending on how survivability / heal changes and oaken nerf turn out, players that are able to clear now might not be able to do so once the patch hits.
Thats the content that needs adjustment.
Besides, one of the reasons overworld PvE is so trivial is not only because mobs die fast. It is too due to low damage pressure on the player. A good redesign would take a lot of work, you can't just throw out some adjustments to player damage values and call it a day.0 -
Pevey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is no way Zos is going to go back and do a nerf on all the content that players will have a harder time completing with these changes. They are not going to take the time to do changes to maelstrom, vateshran, every dungeon, every trial, every world boss. It would be insane to even try. That is not the plan. There is no comprehensive content adjustment coming to make these nerfs more palatable. I would bet a mountain of money on it.2 -
JustAGoodPlayer✭✭✭✭There is no way Zos is going to go back and do a nerf on all the content that players will have a harder time completing with these changes. They are not going to take the time to do changes to maelstrom, vateshran, every dungeon, every trial, every world boss. It would be insane to even try. That is not the plan. There is no comprehensive content adjustment coming to make these nerfs more palatable. I would bet a mountain of money on it.
What is need to nerf all players DPS to then nerf content ? )))
It even sounds strange.0 -
Troodon80✭✭✭✭✭
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It serves three main things:-Holycannoli wrote: »But what's the point of nerfing DPS and content to match the nerf if the net effect of doing both is the same as now? Just keep it the way it is and save yourself all that unnecessary work.- Doesn't decrease or increase the overall feel of power
- Keeps the overall time to kill in content more or less the same across the board, adjusted for specific content (i.e. Maw of Lorkhaj doesn't really need to be touched, but the newer content should be brought in line with the proposed changes)
- Allows for an easier time balancing on much smaller increments or decrements
ESO is heavily orientated toward DPS with an almost-complete disregard for any other role, but we're not even talking about just player damage output here. Most enemy applied DoTs in PvE tick at intervals which are not 2s. They tick at varied intervals depending on the DoT, from anywhere between 100ms up to 1 second. Some of them are incredibly heavy and can be stacked, like the bleeds in Rockgrove during Bahsei. This change effectively brings down HPS (something which has been sorely needed) but increases the pressure on supports and broadens the skill gap between those who can do the content and those who cannot (which also goes against the alledged intent of closing the gap).
@Troodon80 PC | EU
Guild: N&S
Hand of Alkosh | Dawnbringer | Immortal Redeemer | Tick Tock Tormentor | Gryphon Heart
Deep Dive into Dreadsail Reef Mechanics3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Holycannoli, sir, please, that's an insult to Gallagher; at least he brought people joy. These balance changes do nothing of the sort.
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Lalothen✭✭✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »If content can be cleared at new damage levels, I think the dps loss should be acceptable, but I am not a sweaty PvEer by any means.
However, the DoT changes without a doubt will make combat a boring spamfest while everyone has nothing else to do waiting 10-15 seconds before DoTs need to be refreshed. This is not active combat, it's dull.
Definitely, I think if the numbers are going to remain this much lower then there needs to be a balance pass over soft enrage fights to ensure they're achieveable by more than just 0.01% of the gameplay population.
Personally I'm holding out a bit on the DoT thing a bit until I've got a chance to test myself... there are plenty of DoTs with a front-loaded (or back-loaded in the case of abilities like unstable wall) damage component, so I'd like to get some numbers on whether early recast is actually a DPS increase. If that's the case then us sweaty PvEers may not even have to change Live rotations much (beyond perhaps looking at incorporating more DoTs with an additional direct dmg component attached). If that isn't the case.... yeah, combat is going to get duller.
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Oliviander✭✭✭✭Klingenlied wrote: »... might just be one simple fact: We do actually loose years in power progression - with nothing gained or really changed for it.
This might slightly differ from class to class. But really, you can not just invalidate years worth of playtime and think people will be happy about it.
I love it that you really want to shake things up. I love it that you really think deeply about some class issues. But I am real here. Despite a lot of nice ideas, way more is so bad in execution that I am absolutely unable to look forward to Update 35 with any semblance of happy anticipation. If update 35 hits as is - dang this will be grueling times for us all. Might even go down in MMO history as one of the biggest failures of a patch ever.
They did it once - stealing my character Acheivements - they will do it again and again because they are not intersted
in their long term player base.4 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »I was in vKA hm last night, with an overall good group.
The pulls were all in excess of 12 minutes for the last boss because he has a quarter BILLION hit points
We didn't clear. Not because of any one thing. People just got tired. Fps was dropping. A tank crashed, and then the other tank crashed. Healers started to get sloppy by the third or forth pull-- 2 straight hours of raiding, with multiple 10 minute plus pulls on last boss will do that. People started to dot out.
This is not an elite end game team. This are mid-level players, trying to improve. We did every single mechanic the best we could. We were able to kill about half the torturers, but didn't have the dps to kill all of them.
At the end of the night we left feeling defeated. How long will that fight take us next patch? We are struggling with it so much now-- will it even be POSSIBLE?
Crashing and FPS drops aren't your team's fault, so don't let that get to you guys. All teams go through a rough patch before they get fully comfortable in the content. You'll get it eventually. You can actually currently survive a baddie or two coming down if the tanks can quickly taunt them and the raidlead reminds the dps to block or roll dodge when the baddie starts its attack. If you guys want some help with this, feel free to reach out and message me and I'll be happy to pass on what I can. It would be awesome if you guys got it before the patch drops!
I know that doesn't help with next patch's incoming issues, but I really like hearing raid success stories from new groups.PC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero0 -
stevenyaub16_ESO✭✭✭✭FantasticFreddie wrote: »I was in vKA hm last night, with an overall good group.
The pulls were all in excess of 12 minutes for the last boss because he has a quarter BILLION hit points
We didn't clear. Not because of any one thing. People just got tired. Fps was dropping. A tank crashed, and then the other tank crashed. Healers started to get sloppy by the third or forth pull-- 2 straight hours of raiding, with multiple 10 minute plus pulls on last boss will do that. People started to dot out.
This is not an elite end game team. This are mid-level players, trying to improve. We did every single mechanic the best we could. We were able to kill about half the torturers, but didn't have the dps to kill all of them.
At the end of the night we left feeling defeated. How long will that fight take us next patch? We are struggling with it so much now-- will it even be POSSIBLE?
When vKA first came out the top parses were around 90k so it's just gonna be similar experience to launch, bit easier since theres better support sets than back then.1 -
Rasande_Robin✭✭✭✭It really boggles my mind, how so many on the forum can be so critical of this patch.
I don't want to act like an ESO-simp being their "white knight". There are many adjustments I do not agree with being a Necro-main myself. Therefore my biast opinions on the class has no value.
Zenimax are a bit clumsy when it comes to balancing changes. Many other games avoid the "nerf" term and instead buffs everything else except the "thing" that needs to be "nerfed".
It's just simple psychology that the main you "play" you don't want to see nerfed.
Light attack nerf affects us all. But think about it, how would the reaction on the forum be if they buffed "everything" in the game except for light attacks.PC/EU: Orcana "something"-stone1 -
TPishek✭✭✭✭✭Progression is relative. If everyone loses it, no one loses it.
In a bubble, sure. But we have years of content that are built around a certain level of power, and so large groups of people that are either just able to get in there or on the cusp of being able to do those things will suddenly be way behind the level necessary.3